Street Fighting Man was mostly recorded on a mono Philips compact cassette recorder, as can be read here:

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Charlie Watts
Street Fighting Man was recorded on Keith's cassette with a 1930s toy drum kit called a London Jazz Kit Set, which I bought in an antiques shop, and which I've still got at home.

The original single was, of course, in mono, which is totally plausible in this light. However, the album version is in stereo, and one can very clearly hear the guitar in the right and the drums in the left during the song's opening. This would of course be impossible using a single mono cassette recorder. The way I see it, there are only three ways to explain this discrepancy:

[*]Two or more cassette recorders were used, but this leaves us with the question how on earth their recording and playback could ever have been synchronized properly.
[*]Charlie was mistaken - his drums were actually not recorded on cassette.
[*]Somehow, they managed to make a stereo recording using a mono recorder.

The second options seems the most likely, but it's still not very satisfying (Charlie wasn't the only one saying his drums were also cassette-recorded). Does anyone know more about this than I do?

I'm interested in hearing people's views.

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FreeBird
Street Fighting Man was mostly recorded on a mono Philips compact cassette recorder, as can be read here:

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Charlie Watts
Street Fighting Man was recorded on Keith's cassette with a 1930s toy drum kit called a London Jazz Kit Set, which I bought in an antiques shop, and which I've still got at home.

The original single was, of course, in mono, which is totally plausible in this light. However, the album version is in stereo, and one can very clearly hear the guitar in the right and the drums in the left during the song's opening. This would of course be impossible using a single mono cassette recorder. The way I see it, there are only three ways to explain this discrepancy:

[*]Two or more cassette recorders were used, but this leaves us with the question how on earth their recording and playback could ever have been synchronized properly.
[*]Charlie was mistaken - his drums were actually not recorded on cassette.
[*]Somehow, they managed to make a stereo recording using a mono recorder.

The second options seems the most likely, but it's still not very satisfying (Charlie wasn't the only one saying his drums were also cassette-recorded). Does anyone know more about this than I do?

I'm interested in hearing people's views.

I think additional drums were overdubbed at Olympic.

Ahh... That makes sense.

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71Tele

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FreeBird
Street Fighting Man was mostly recorded on a mono Philips compact cassette recorder, as can be read here:

Quote
Charlie Watts
Street Fighting Man was recorded on Keith's cassette with a 1930s toy drum kit called a London Jazz Kit Set, which I bought in an antiques shop, and which I've still got at home.

The original single was, of course, in mono, which is totally plausible in this light. However, the album version is in stereo, and one can very clearly hear the guitar in the right and the drums in the left during the song's opening. This would of course be impossible using a single mono cassette recorder. The way I see it, there are only three ways to explain this discrepancy:

[*]Two or more cassette recorders were used, but this leaves us with the question how on earth their recording and playback could ever have been synchronized properly.
[*]Charlie was mistaken - his drums were actually not recorded on cassette.
[*]Somehow, they managed to make a stereo recording using a mono recorder.

The second options seems the most likely, but it's still not very satisfying (Charlie wasn't the only one saying his drums were also cassette-recorded). Does anyone know more about this than I do?

I'm interested in hearing people's views.

I think additional drums were overdubbed at Olympic.

[www.timeisonourside.com]

Mathijs

I picture a scene something like this for the 3 tracks in which they supposedly used the Philips tape machine.

In my opinion it could only have been used for the initial basic track with recording tests done for positioning of Keith, Brian and Charlie in proximity to the machines mic in order to get best balance between them on the machines recording.

Street Fighting Man

Philips tape machine
Keith - acoustic
Brian - sitar
Charlie - toy drum set

Jumpin' Jack Flash

Philips tape machine
Keith - acoustic
Brian - acoustic
Charlie - percussion or toy drum set

Parachute Woman

Philips tape machine
Keith - acoustic
Brian - harmonica
Charlie - percussion or toy drum set

After they were happy with the basic tape machine take, the machine was then played through a big speaker mic'd up and run in to the Olympic studios desk and on to 1 track of a 4 track tape. Then on to more usual overdubbing.

Although Charlie certainly gives the impression the big loud drums are via this recording and the toy set, it is impossible imo for them to be on that recording, be so clear and also be in opposite speaker from the distorted guitar/sitar. He's clearly overdubbed them via more usual studio means.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-20 20:40 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

Although Charlie certainly gives the impression the big loud drums are via this recording and the toy set, it is impossible imo for them to be on that recording, be so clear and also be in opposite speaker from the distorted guitar/sitar. He's clearly overdubbed them via more usual studio means.

Actually I have the same feeling with Brian's sitar and harmonica. I have made many cassette recordings myself, and you basically can do two things: record at a low recording level in order to get more than 1 instrument loud and clear, or record at a high recording level and overdrive the limiters to get that raw, distorted sound. If you do the latter with several instruments you end up with a distorted mushy mess.

In my opinion Brian's sitar and especially his harmonica are just too clean and neatly recorded to be recorded on the same machine that has its limiters overdriven by an acoustic guitar at close range. Drums could be, but on the released versions of all tracks there sure are normally recorded drums present, so these where overdubbed.

Mathijs

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Mathijs


Actually I have the same feeling with Brian's sitar and harmonica. I have made many cassette recordings myself, and you basically can do two things: record at a low recording level in order to get more than 1 instrument loud and clear, or record at a high recording level and overdrive the limiters to get that raw, distorted sound. If you do the latter with several instruments you end up with a distorted mushy mess.

In my opinion Brian's sitar and especially his harmonica are just too clean and neatly recorded to be recorded on the same machine that has its limiters overdriven by an acoustic guitar at close range. Drums could be, but on the released versions of all tracks there sure are normally recorded drums present, so these where overdubbed.

Mathijs

The sitar is right in there with the distortion, what Keith says regarding the sitar and the positioning of the people doesn't really go against what is heard on the track. Are you thinking of the tamboura!?

The sound on Parachute Woman is far cleaner than the others, but yeah I agree the main harmonica heard throughout was probably an overdub, the harmonica at the end definitely so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-20 21:05 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Mathijs


Actually I have the same feeling with Brian's sitar and harmonica. I have made many cassette recordings myself, and you basically can do two things: record at a low recording level in order to get more than 1 instrument loud and clear, or record at a high recording level and overdrive the limiters to get that raw, distorted sound. If you do the latter with several instruments you end up with a distorted mushy mess.

In my opinion Brian's sitar and especially his harmonica are just too clean and neatly recorded to be recorded on the same machine that has its limiters overdriven by an acoustic guitar at close range. Drums could be, but on the released versions of all tracks there sure are normally recorded drums present, so these where overdubbed.

Mathijs

The sitar is right in there with the distortion, what Keith says regarding the sitar and the positioning of the people doesn't really go against what is heard on the track. Are you thinking of the tamboura!?

The sound on Parachute Woman is far cleaner than the others, but yeah I agree the main harmonica heard throughout was probably an overdub, the harmonica at the end definitely so.

Yep, it's the tamboura that's overdubbed, the sitar indeed is sitting there with the distortion.

Any idea by the way what Philips recorder he had? There where two at the time -a recorder using cassettes that could record mono, and tape recorders that actually had two tracks so you could record stereo (although you could not separate the tracks).

Mathijs

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Mathijs
Any idea by the way what Philips recorder he had? There where two at the time -a recorder using cassettes that could record mono, and tape recorders that actually had two tracks so you could record stereo (although you could not separate the tracks).

The first mono cassette version, the small reel to reel type had already been out for a long time.

AFAIK, Keith has always said that it was Philips' first compact cassette recorder model he used, which would be the EL3300.

Dont take musicians by the word, in particular if recollection many years after the fact may be a bit hazy.

I am pretty sure they did not RECORD anything on this particular cassette player. They were most probably just using the great sounding compression by micing the acoustic guitar (and possibly the sitar too, but at a later stage) into the tape recorder and feeding the signal from the tape recorder output to the conventional mixing desk and multitrack tape.

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alimente
Dont take musicians by the word, in particular if recollection many years after the fact may be a bit hazy.

I am pretty sure they did not RECORD anything on this particular cassette player. They were most probably just using the great sounding compression by micing the acoustic guitar (and possibly the sitar too, but at a later stage) into the tape recorder and feeding the signal from the tape recorder output to the conventional mixing desk and multitrack tape.

Those machines don't allow you to use it as a direct feed/preamp, atleast the original I bought a few years ago didn't, you have to record on it first, then play it back.

They may not be remembering everything correctly, but the Philips tape machine thing has been mentioned by Keith, Bill and Charlie, also Keith said it in 1971,. not that long after really.

Plus the sound is very much that of a distorted tape machine recording.

It is probably a combination of the tape saturating as well as distortion from overloading the recorder's circuitry, resulting in the cool sounds of the above mentioned songs. PW especially sounds good, amazing how clean and smooth the distortion is compared to the roughness of SFM. I can't understand why Keith never revisited these recording methods again?

I would like to get one of these old Phillips machines..or any cassette recorder that allows recording with manual level control, or at least allows you to turn off the compressor/limiter. There are still a few cassette recorders sold in shops these days..thinking of the Sony TCM recorders sold in Argos and Currys (in the UK), but they always have built in limiters.

I've also been wanting to get hold of a Fostex X-12. This surely is the most basic 4-track cassette recorder there is.. level and pan controls and that's it...but 4x the scope for blending lo-fi sounds, and no limiters. There's also the Tascam Porta 01(?), the very basic model they used to do.

Come ON. Keith used the tape recorder to RECORD THE GUITAR. He has never implied otherwise that I've ever read.

keith never used the philips again because it doesn´t sound good. a fostex won´t sound too good neither. the good tape sound only comes from the high end tape recorders.

for me this tape recorder story is just that a story that sells good.

why all these regular studio overdubs if this little thing is so good?

the three mentioned songs would sound the same or better if all was done in the studio.

He specifically said he used it to record the guitar because it overloaded the player, which was sent out to a speaker in a distorted form that had a mic in front of it that they used to record the sound of the guitar. The actual cassette recorder was not the actual recording device, the 2 inch analog was. It was what one might call bussing.

Define what "sound good" means? Of course high end studio recorders are better quality, the point of the cassette recorder is that it gives a very dirty rough sound. It was only used for part of the recording of these songs. The rest was done on the usual studio multitrack machine etc.

Skipstone - the cassette tape was played back again, this was then mic'ed and recorded to the main multitrack recorder. Not strictly bussing as such, more like tape bouncing.

With JJF the cassette track was pretty minimal - the overdubs really made the songs - but it was still worth it to add a bit of grit and dirt to the song. This is especially true of SFM.

Yeah, something like that. I knew it had to do with recording the speaker and Charlie playing along.

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skipstone
Come ON. Keith used the tape recorder to RECORD THE GUITAR. He has never implied otherwise that I've ever read.

He specifically mentions both Brian and Charlie as being part of the Philips tape machine recording. Also there's a quote where they mention watching the tape machine play back/mic'd up whilst they were in the control room.

Once it was on the normal 4 track for sure the sound was treated with eq, noise reduction, compression etc etc.

Further overdubbing over that rough basic track via the usual ways.

There's some contradictions in their hazy memories, but the main jist of what they are saying stays the same.

"He specifically mentions both Brian and Charlie as being part of the Philips tape machine recording."

That's all that says. That doesn't mean the entire track was done on it. "Being part" of it could mean many things, one being that they helped maintain the tempo. Regardless, 21 or everything's OK, the Philips guitar track is what we hear and the song was built around it.

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skipstone
"He specifically mentions both Brian and Charlie as being part of the Philips tape machine recording."

That's all that says. That doesn't mean the entire track was done on it. "Being part" of it could mean many things, one being that they helped maintain the tempo. Regardless, 21 or everything's OK, the Philips guitar track is what we hear and the song was built around it.

Oh my, I'll try again!

Keith specifically mentions Brian on sitar and charlie on toy drum set as being part of the philips tape machine recording...

Of course not all of it was done on the machine, noone is claiming that. But the sitar on SFM(not the tamboura) is distorted and hard to make out due to it most likely being part of the original basic tape machine take. Keith says it was, the sound backs this up.

It's really quite straight forward, a basic track featuring Keith, Brian and Charlie was most likely recorded on the machine, this track was played back via a speaker and recorded on to Olympics 4 track, they then overdubbed as they usually would with the philips tape machine track being track 1/something they played along to on the 4 track.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-22 23:43 by His Majesty.

Alright. My interpretation of what Keith has said was that only his guitar was recorded through the Philips, not the drums. But whatever. The fact that Charlie used a tiny drum set for it is hilarious all by itself.

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skipstone
Alright. My interpretation of what Keith has said was that only his guitar was recorded through the Philips, not the drums. But whatever. The fact that Charlie used a tiny drum set for it is hilarious all by itself.

Sorry, got a bit too grumpy there!

No no no. It's just that it's been talked about so many times over the years and who knows what drink or drug Keith was on - or not on - when some of the interviews were done!

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skipstone
No no no. It's just that it's been talked about so many times over the years and who knows what drink or drug Keith was on - or not on - when some of the interviews were done!

Agreed, but his memories in 1971 or so are probably going to be more fresher than in 2002.

Ha ha. I've read about the recording of Street Fighting Man so many times in different magazines over the past, shit, I guess since 1989 or whatever...

I about flipped out when I saw (and managed to get) that Goldmine magazine about the recording of Black And Blue. But I was really pissed when I missed the one about Tattoo You.

I just listened to the song again and I must say that the drums that are in the left channel during the intro sound a lot more natural than some of the drums that can be heard troughout the rest of the song, which definitely points at the use of overdubs.

Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.