I have always thought that GS was two movies: The joyous first half with the great MSG footage, Mussel Shoals recording session, etc., and then the big bummer of Altamont. I took a good friend to see the re-released GS in the theatre when it came out (she had never seen it and was not a big Stones fan) and her first response as the lights went up after the film ended was "I hate hippies" (ok, you'd have to know my friend Suzy to get why that was funny). But I can no longer watch the second half of the film with all that stupidity, 60s flower-power-gone-wrong vibe, and of course senseless violence (and the utter helplessness of our heroes). I would love to have the GS MSG performances together with the Ya-Yas deluxe edition footage on one DVD. I personally never want to hear the Altamont stuff again. Knowing someone was being murdered while it was recorded takes some of the pleasure out of it for me.

and her first response as the lights went up after the film ended was "I hate hippies"

That made me lol before even reading your caveat.

I agree---I experience it as 2 films too. I don't know how I feel about the Altamount performances. I don't have the boots to them and I don't own the film, so I've only seen/heard it as part of the film. I think I would like to see/hear the entire whole Altamount concert as a piece, without the narration and editing. Because I would want to get a better sense of what that day was like.

As far as the Stones' part of the whole Altamount concert..I honestly have never analyzed the music part of the performance much because when watching the flick you know what's going to happen or is happening in the film (and in reality), and it's too intense for me seeing it cut back and forth, and only hearing parts of the songs, to dispassionately say "I like Mick's phrasing on this." But again: not that I wouldn't want to just listen to the whole performance on its own, but I've never had that chance. Once I heard it from end to end without video I could decide whether I ever wanted to hear it again. Mick's so sensitive (or was) to crowd interaction and dynamics, that if any of that toxic crowd shit came through the performance I don't know how much of that I would want in my head.

I do think it would be interesting -- and I'm sure there are many people here who've done this --- to hear how that performance was different from MSG and other nights. But I do now own all that music. And honestly have never listened to a song from one night, compared it to the same song the next night, compared it to another night -- which sounds fun but just haven't done it.

Id like to see an entire MSG concert released- or maybe release Gimme Shelter with the concert as a twin dvd set.I agree about Altamont- I watched it the first time just to watch it,because I had read alot about it, now I just watch the first half.

yes - I also get the 2 halves to the movie.
But the way I see it, the band was on fire at Altamont and played some of their best music under extreme circumstances. Under My Thumb, played straight after the murder, is the tightest sounding version of the song ever IMO.

The Altamont stuff does leave you a little sad I guess, but would be nice to get the rest of the concert from UMT onwards...I'm sure it would give you a different feel of the festival as the crowd (and Angels) seemed to be more under control.

The Mayles did a great job giving the impression the concert was the end of the 60's...which arguably it was!

Must be an anarchist streak in me, but I love the train wreck at Altamont.

Of course it is sad, and if I had been up front close to the Angels then I would soon change my mind and get out of there . . .. fast!

Still that chaos is intriguing. I just have to keep watching.

I love the movie - even if you did not know what was going to happen the film gives off a vibe that something disastrous is going to happen. It is the best rock fim ever made in my opinion.

i do like the film but but it leaves you a bit gobsmacked after the first viewing,
now i find the section with the whole discussion and radio bit about altamont very tedious and wasting (film)time
they couldn't have known what would happen that day ,i wonder ..we would probable have a great 69 tour concert film instead.
a full msg concert would be preferable.
under my thumb is a great version , i like it when mick drops out and you hear keith in all his sus4 chord picking glory

The best rock'n'roll documentary of all-time !

I remember the first time I saw it and now. My feelings are the same.
I already know what's gonna happen, but I couldn't believe it each time I see it,
and It could have been far much wicked when one see how many stoned guys or gals
there was in Altamont !

Great (MSG) and shocking (The murder) .

HMN

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slew
I love the movie - even if you did not know what was going to happen the film gives off a vibe that something disastrous is going to happen. It is the best rock fim ever made in my opinion.

I agree, as a film it's great. The foreshadowing of disaster by the Maysles is brilliant. I was just expressing my own inability to enjoy it on a musical level once the movie shifts its focus to Altamont and all those bad vibes.

Look at GS from the Maysles Bros point of view : your motto is "cinéma vérité". You've been trying to capture **reality** on 16mm stock since 1962.
You're hired by the Stones to film their tour (14 same songs every night, yawn) and what does unwrap in front of you at the very end of your filming schedule? A (gory) murder...

Quite the ultimate "cinéma vérité" experience! The bros must have found this both fascinating/exciting and puzzling.

One of the best Rock documentaries of all time. Even 40 years later I can't think of one that tops it.....

It was a very sad event but compelling all the same...like a car wreck, very disturbing but you can't look away....I have watched it at least a dozen times and see something new every time I watch it....

People knock the concert but it is actually a very good performance by the band
once things settle down. The music has a real edge to it....

I know others disagree about wanting to see the whole show, and I don't see the Stones allowing it as it is too painful a memory, but I would love to see the video of the complete concert someday. Or if not Altamont maybe some of the other 69 tour footage and SB audio Maysles reportedly has in the vaults

Maybe Albert Maysles will let some of it out of the vaults before he passes.........



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-24 01:42 by oldschool.

Maybe Albert Maysles will let some of it out of the vaults before he passes.........

That is the answer to release the vaults...............

__________________________

71tele - Yeah the hippie thing is a bit dated but I find the whole thing fascinating its SOOOOOOOO much better than the Woodstock movie.

On the other hand I agree I would love to see an entire MSG show released unedited the band was so freakin' powerful in 1969!!! They were awesome and it is easy to see why Sam Cutler introduced them as the "Greatest Rock 'N' Roll band in the world"- because they were!!

Slew: True about Woodstock, and in fact I hate the whole Woodstock myth. Frankly it seemed like an absolute hellhole there. Bad sanitation, not enough food, people having drug freakouts. Many of the artists who performed also say it was unpleasant. But a whole mythology has been established around it, starting with the Joni Mitchell song. For me, being knee deep in mud having to endure Country Joe and the Fish is something akin to the Fifth Circle of hell.

I first saw GS in the mid-to-late 70s in a theater,
not too far removed from 1969. When the Altamont crowd first appeared,
the audience in the theater were in hysterics. Not necessarily at
the loony clothes, but more of a "You've got to be kidding!
Are these people serious? THis is the West Coast, San Francisco crowd?
THey're pathetic, laughable."
The biggest laugh in the movie was always the "lemmings of the sea" line...
wich was true!

71Tele - I don't understand. You want a sanitized version of Gimme Shelter? Like the "edited for children" version of March Of The Penguins, with only the cute stuff left in, and all the depressing stuff taken out?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-24 04:33 by tatters.

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tatters
71Tele - I don't understand. You want a sanitized version of Gimme Shelter? Like the "edited for children" version of March Of The Penguins, with only the cute stuff left in, and all the depressing stuff taken out?

Not at all, you missed my point, or I didn't make it very clearly...I think it's a powerful and brilliant film, but so disturbing in the second half as opposed to the first, that I find it difficult to watch anymore.

I agree Tatters. Gimmie Shelter is one of those rare films that catches a moment in history that was bigger than anyone could have realized at the moment. And the fact that the Stones allowed it come out at all is a testimony to their creative insight. It really isn't two separate films. But it feels that way at times. However, what it does is start off with The Stones doing their first large scale tour of the US in ages and a new type of tour for them. And it shows how the audiences had matured to appreciating the music and appreciating the new "Stones". And the Stones themselves are rejuvenated and inspired by their new touring approach. The film starts off with all the beauty, optimism, and naivety that was signature of the sixties. And then it slowly shifts to the nightmare of Altamont, which is such a powerful examination of the end of the sixties. The death of the sixties. And it heralds a new era of excess and narcism. It is very powerful watching the Stones watch themselves on the editing monitors and seeing their faces and reactions to their own documentary. As if they themselves are just powerless bystanders to their own lives. Which in a sense was what the end of the sixties was all about. Many people were feeling like powerless bystanders to their own lives with so much violence and change in the air. Really, it was more than just showing the Stones playing live, but more showing history and the change in eras. Brilliant!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-24 04:45 by whitem8.

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71Tele

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tatters
71Tele - I don't understand. You want a sanitized version of Gimme Shelter? Like the "edited for children" version of March Of The Penguins, with only the cute stuff left in, and all the depressing stuff taken out?

Not at all, you missed my point, or I didn't make it very clearly...I think it's a powerful and brilliant film, but so disturbing in the second half as opposed to the first, that I find it difficult to watch anymore.

Guy goes to a doctor and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this". Doc says, "Don't do that".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-24 16:33 by tatters.

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slew
71tele - Yeah the hippie thing is a bit dated but I find the whole thing fascinating its SOOOOOOOO much better than the Woodstock movie.

Yes, because Altamont shows what happens when the Rolling Stones, at the peak of their powers, are dropped like an atom bomb into a Woodstock-type situation. The San Francisco hippies, raised on feel-good groups like the Dead and the Airplane, just couldn't handle something as darkly powerful as the Rolling Stones, who were operating on a wholly other level, not just compared to the hippie bands, but even compared to the version of themselves that had last played SF in 1966. It's the power of the Stones that drove the crowd to madness that night. It changed history, not just rock history, but WORLD history. Painful to watch? Maybe, but lots of great art is a little painful to look at.

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tatters

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slew
71tele - Yeah the hippie thing is a bit dated but I find the whole thing fascinating its SOOOOOOOO much better than the Woodstock movie.

Yes, because Altamont shows what happens when the Rolling Stones, at the peak of their powers, are dropped like an atom bomb into a Woodstock-type situation. The San Francisco hippies, raised on feel-good groups like the Dead and the Airplane, just couldn't handle something as darkly powerful as the Rolling Stones, who were operating on a wholly other level, not just compared to the hippie bands, but even compared to the version of themselves that had last played SF in 1966. It's the power of the Stones that drove the crowd to madness that night. It changed history, not just rock history, but WORLD history. Painful to watch? Maybe, but lots of great art is a little painful to look at.

Altamont was hardly a Woodstock type situation......Woodstock had some degree of planning with a very high stage and barrier in front and did not have the Hells Angels playing security......Altamont happened because of poor planning, a three foot stage and the Hells Angels. It had nothing to do with the San Francisco hippies.

Using your logic do you think there would have been the violence if the Angels had not been there or if the Stones had played Woodstock would that have caused violence.....

oldschool - I agree, Altamont was thrown together, the Hell's Angels were not a good choice for security and the Rolling Stones like the Beatles are just so big in popularity that it was another level.

I don't blame the hippies at all. I put some blame squarely on the band, a lot on the methods the Angels used and yes I suppose the way the crowd behaved. It was rushed together and was not well done at all. There should never be that little security for an entity like the Stones. Having them that close to the crowd was not a good idea at all. Hindsight is also 20/20 and I believe everyone at the time was a little naive about the whole thing.

It would be fantastic if they did indeed release the entire NY show(s) part as a whole.

Altamont - well, regardless of the murder, what is shown is just the very essence of why people get so pissed at the hippies and that mentality - it certainly shows its hollowness and selfishness. But there are also people seemingly enjoying themselves while being sober (and hopefully weren't reeking of hippie stank). When people say the 60s are over or death to hippies and various other rants, I usually think of Woodstock and then Altamont, how they are bookends to that era. To think that there are people out there who are proud to have gone to Woodstock just blows my mind. It's been overkilled a thousand times over.

Gimme Shelter begins with a moment of innocence (in the MSG performance )
What ones can see on Jagger’s face is joy,surprise & a bit of insolence .

This joy and this insolence went to arrogance :the free concert was /had been impulsively conceived and bad planned.

The filmakers showed the Stones as perfectionists (did they had orders ? )

The most important moment IMO is when Jagger loses control of /in front of the crowd and realizes that he has may be failed .



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-24 18:42 by SwayStones.

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tatters
71Tele - I don't understand. You want a sanitized version of Gimme Shelter? Like the "edited for children" version of March Of The Penguins, with only the cute stuff left in, and all the depressing stuff taken out?

Good one tatters, sounds like that to me too.....

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71Tele
Not at all, you missed my point, or I didn't make it very clearly...I think it's a powerful and brilliant film, but so disturbing in the second half as opposed to the first, that I find it difficult to watch anymore.

71Tele, "disturbing".... Dude, the guy HAD A GUN and was pointing it at the stage. He also seemed TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL jumping around. It wasn't a murder, had the Hells Angels been our (California) real cops he (Hunter) would have been shot about 20 times in less than a second since he was a threat to the band AND the audience. Since when is waving a loaded gun around kosher, normal, and legal behaviour? You have played too many video games with guns in them I suspect, not real to you anymore - numbed out to guns and what they do. How old are you anyway? Can you drive yet or just ride your Stingray bike around to the 7/11 to steal candy bars and "score" Bud Lite from an adult?

I am not blaming everything on the Angels as they were just one ingredient in the "Perfect Storm", last minute location choice, 3 ft high stage, a back stage with no security, Angels for security etc...

The violence did not start when the Stones went on it started earlier in the day. Marty Balin of the Jefferson Airplane was knocked out by the Angels so saying the presence of the Stones made the crowd crazy and incited the violence is a little unfair I think.

Would the violence still have happened if the Angels were not there? hard to say but I think the odds of it happening would have been greatly reduced as would a higher stage with a crowd barrier like at Woodstock.......

Love him or hate him give Bill Graham credit for seeing a train wreck in the making with Altamont. He could have organized the event but saw the poor planning and wanted nothing to do with it......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-24 18:54 by oldschool.

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HelterSkelter

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tatters
71Tele - I don't understand. You want a sanitized version of Gimme Shelter? Like the "edited for children" version of March Of The Penguins, with only the cute stuff left in, and all the depressing stuff taken out?

Good one tatters, sounds like that to me too.....

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71Tele
Not at all, you missed my point, or I didn't make it very clearly...I think it's a powerful and brilliant film, but so disturbing in the second half as opposed to the first, that I find it difficult to watch anymore.

71Tele, "disturbing".... Dude, the guy HAD A GUN and was pointing it at the stage. He also seemed TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL jumping around. It wasn't a murder, had the Hells Angels been our (California) real cops he (Hunter) would have been shot about 20 times in less than a second since he was a threat to the band AND the audience. Since when is waving a loaded gun around kosher, normal, and legal behaviour? You have played too many video games with guns in them I suspect, not real to you anymore - numbed out to guns and what they do. How old are you anyway? Can you drive yet or just ride your Stingray bike around to the 7/11 to steal candy bars and "score" Bud Lite from an adult?

From the written accounts I have read the Angels zeroed in on the guy and were abusing him. If the Angels had not been pushing the guy around would he have gone back and even gotten his gun?...If there had been real security there instead of the Angels beating people with pool cues the violence may never have happened

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skipstone
Altamont - well, regardless of the murder, what is shown is just the very essence of why people get so pissed at the hippies and that mentality - it certainly shows its hollowness and selfishness. But there are also people seemingly enjoying themselves while being sober (and hopefully weren't reeking of hippie stank). When people say the 60s are over or death to hippies and various other rants, I usually think of Woodstock and then Altamont, how they are bookends to that era. To think that there are people out there who are proud to have gone to Woodstock just blows my mind. It's been overkilled a thousand times over.

You don't know what you're talking about (as usual). Your knowledge of "Hippies" is from watching horrible portrayals in Junk movies and TV shows. FYI, hippies stopped an uncivilized brutal war (Vietnam, early 70's), what are the youth of today doing besides texting mall and Mcdonalds get - together plans 24 hours a day and sitting at their computers being totally passive and mind controlled by Big Business - Roll Over George Orwell/Tell Winston the news.... NOT MUCH Comrade (besides all of that you missed the Stones when they were Great and Authentic - pre 1981)

Old School, the HELLS ANGEL was found innocent of murder in court. They had a lot more information and details than we do - case closed, Trial found the Angel NOT GUILTY of murder. YOU DON'T TAKE A LOADED GUN TO A CONCERT, who cares about the details - NO GUNS ALLOWED !!!

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HelterSkelter
Old School, the HELLS ANGEL was found innocent of murder in court. They had a lot more information and details than we do - case closed, Trial found the Angel NOT GUILTY of murder. YOU DON'T TAKE A LOADED GUN TO A CONCERT, who cares about the details - NO GUNS ALLOWED !!!

Not saying the Angels did not do the right thing under the circumstances and I am not saying what he did was acceptable by brandishing a gun....

All I am saying is they provoked the guy and he went back to his car and got the gun. According to his girlfriend he was not even carrying it before the Angels started abusing him. If the Angels had not been there and had not pissed the guy off the incident may never have happened.......

Don't be so focused on the result and try to think back to the probable cause of the incident and ask your self the question.... would he have gone back to his car and gotten his gun if the the Angels had not started to abuse him??.........cause and effect is all I am saying...No Angels then possibly no gun and no stabbing...........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-24 19:21 by oldschool.