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tonterapi

Brian had problems playing at times but as your examples show - not all the time. One photographer (always forget who) said that he had witnessed Brian struggling to tune his guitar right in the studio and afterwards played it badly. So it wasn't just lack of interest. But I really think he disliked that the glimmers now decided what should be played and not on the songs. Before Beggars the albums had been "arranged by the Rolling Stones". Now that had been taken over by Mick and Keith and Miller.

The sometimes not turning up or sometimes turning up wasted is partly a manifestation of his dis-interest in The Rolling Stones. He is clearly still able to play good up to and including May 1968... when he was interested and aware enough to do so.

The photographer you mention was Eric Hayes and it relates to photos he took of the stones at Olympic Studios in spring 1969, he recalls Brian being drunk and/or stoned. Focusing purely on the tuning up and playing part, such a scene can happen to any musician who's wasted. This story doesn't tell us anything about Brian's musical abilities when he wasn't in that state though.

Aside from a few tracks, as far as we are concerned there's nothing really to go on with regards to his abilities during the post Beggars Banquet final year of his life. Some shakey slide playing at R&R Circus and a basic autoharp part is all we really have to go on and that's just not enough to have any true insight in to how well he was able to play when he wasn't wasted and/or dis-interested.

The final year of Brian's life as a musician is a mystery to us really.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-04 19:54 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

Aside from a few tracks, as far as we are concerned there's nothing really to go on with regards to his abilities during the post Beggars Banquet final year of his life. Some shakey slide playing at R&R Circus and a basic autoharp part is all we really have to go on and that's just not enough to have any true insight in to how well he was able to play when he wasn't wasted and/or dis-interested.

The final year of Brian's life as a musician is a mystery to us really.

But this then would mean he either was wasted all the time, or not interested all the time, or both all the time OR his days as a musician where really gone. I mean, the Stones basically lived in the studio in '68 and '69, recording and writing BB, LIB, and half of SF and Exile, and then to only manage one basic autoharp part...

Mathijs

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His Majesty

Concerrt Harp

Are you sure that's Brian? That sounds like a trained player to me...

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

Aside from a few tracks, as far as we are concerned there's nothing really to go on with regards to his abilities during the post Beggars Banquet final year of his life. Some shakey slide playing at R&R Circus and a basic autoharp part is all we really have to go on and that's just not enough to have any true insight in to how well he was able to play when he wasn't wasted and/or dis-interested.

The final year of Brian's life as a musician is a mystery to us really.

But this then would mean he either was wasted all the time, or not interested all the time, or both all the time OR his days as a musician where really gone. I mean, the Stones basically lived in the studio in '68 and '69, recording and writing BB, LIB, and half of SF and Exile, and then to only manage one basic autoharp part...

Mathijs

November 1968 - May 1969 only really covers part of Let It Bleed and some of that time was not spent recording.

He was on holdiday in Ceylon and missed some of the February sessions. He was ill and in priory again in March. Going by the comments of those involved the not runing up and/or turning up wasted, or dis-interested increased during this time.

There's photos of him appearing at atleast 4 or so Let It Bleed sessions.

Hard to judge someone's abilities when we don't get to hear them play.

"80 percent of success is showing up" - Woody Allen

or:

Allen: That's quite a lovely Jackson Pollock, isn't it?
Woman: Yes, it is.
Allen: What does it say to you?
Woman: It restates the negativeness of the universe. The hideous lonely emptiness of existence. Nothingness. The predicament of man forced to live in a barren, godless eternity like a tiny flame flickering in an immense void with nothing but waste, horror, and degradation, forming a useless, bleak straitjacket in a black, absurd cosmos.
Allen: What are you doing Saturday night?
Woman: Committing suicide.
Allen: What about Friday night?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-04 20:18 by 24FPS.

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

Concerrt Harp

Are you sure that's Brian? That sounds like a trained player to me...

Mathijs

Yah joking? Even the parts which ignore they key of the song and simply consist of him running his finger(s) along the strings like so, only slower?





Brian playing concert harp on a satanic era track has been mentioned by various people including Glyn Johns and Bill Wyman. Thus far this is the only known stones recording from that period featuring concert harp, the part consists of a simple melodic part and gentle gliding of the fingers over a batch of open, un-muted, strings.

You or I could get this part from a concert harp in 10 minutes or something, but that's not the point.

...

This is the sound of a trained Concert harp player, controlled timbre, phrasing, dynamics and key changes.







Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-04 20:30 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

Concerrt Harp

Are you sure that's Brian? That sounds like a trained player to me...

Mathijs

Yah joking? Even the parts which ignore they key of the song and simply consist of him running his finger(s) along the strings like so, only slower?





Brian playing concert harp on a satanic era track has been mentioned by various people including Glyn Johns and Bill Wyman. Thus far this is the only known stones recording from that period featuring concert harp, the part consists of a simple melodic part and gentle gliding of the fingers over a batch of open, un-muted, strings.

You or I could get this part from a concert harp in 10 minutes or something, but that's not the point.

...

This is the sound of a trained Concert harp player, controlled timbre, phrasing, dynamics and key changes.

Aha. I thought the runs where more difficult to do.

Mathijs

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His Majesty

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

Aside from a few tracks, as far as we are concerned there's nothing really to go on with regards to his abilities during the post Beggars Banquet final year of his life. Some shakey slide playing at R&R Circus and a basic autoharp part is all we really have to go on and that's just not enough to have any true insight in to how well he was able to play when he wasn't wasted and/or dis-interested.

The final year of Brian's life as a musician is a mystery to us really.

But this then would mean he either was wasted all the time, or not interested all the time, or both all the time OR his days as a musician where really gone. I mean, the Stones basically lived in the studio in '68 and '69, recording and writing BB, LIB, and half of SF and Exile, and then to only manage one basic autoharp part...

Mathijs

November 1968 - May 1969 only really covers part of Let It Bleed and some of that time was not spent recording.

He was on holdiday in Ceylon and missed some of the February sessions. He was ill and in priory again in March. Going by the comments of those involved the not runing up and/or turning up wasted, or dis-interested increased during this time.

There's photos of him appearing at atleast 4 or so Let It Bleed sessions.

Hard to judge someone's abilities when we don't get to hear them play.

They did spend February and March 1969 in the studio, and then from half April to early July again, and these sessions where one of the most fruitful for the Stones.

I tend to think he was already ousted by the band, making it incredibly difficult for him, an insecure person, to go to the studio and be one of the band again, working with them. It appears he really had to drink some courage into him, take some pills in order for him to show up.

Mathijs

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His Majesty
The sometimes not turning up or sometimes turning up wasted is partly a manifestation of his dis-interest in The Rolling Stones. He is clearly still able to play good up to and including May 1968... when he was interested and aware enough to do so.

The photographer you mention was Eric Hayes and it relates to photos he took of the stones at Olympic Studios in spring 1969, he recalls Brian being drunk and/or stoned. Focusing purely on the tuning up and playing part, such a scene can happen to any musician who's wasted. This story doesn't tell us anything about Brian's musical abilities when he wasn't in that state though.

Aside from a few tracks, as far as we are concerned there's nothing really to go on with regards to his abilities during the post Beggars Banquet final year of his life. Some shakey slide playing at R&R Circus and a basic autoharp part is all we really have to go on and that's just not enough to have any true insight in to how well he was able to play when he wasn't wasted and/or dis-interested.

The final year of Brian's life as a musician is a mystery to us really.

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Mathijs

They did spend February and March 1969 in the studio, and then from half April to early July again, and these sessions where one of the most fruitful for the Stones.

I tend to think he was already ousted by the band, making it incredibly difficult for him, an insecure person, to go to the studio and be one of the band again, working with them. It appears he really had to drink some courage into him, take some pills in order for him to show up.

Mathijs

Yeah, seems to fit what those involved have said, but maybe when he was at home and sober he played some Django!?

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His Majesty

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Mathijs

They did spend February and March 1969 in the studio, and then from half April to early July again, and these sessions where one of the most fruitful for the Stones.

I tend to think he was already ousted by the band, making it incredibly difficult for him, an insecure person, to go to the studio and be one of the band again, working with them. It appears he really had to drink some courage into him, take some pills in order for him to show up.

Mathijs

Yeah, seems to fit what those involved have said, but maybe when he was at home and sober he played some Django!?

Yah joking this time?

Ok, ok, a Jones interpretation of Django.

But, Stu did say Brian could play some Django when he first met him and Stu grew to some what hate Brian thus had no reason to lie about something as groovy as that.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-04 21:29 by His Majesty.

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VT22

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His Majesty

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Mathijs

They did spend February and March 1969 in the studio, and then from half April to early July again, and these sessions where one of the most fruitful for the Stones.

I tend to think he was already ousted by the band, making it incredibly difficult for him, an insecure person, to go to the studio and be one of the band again, working with them. It appears he really had to drink some courage into him, take some pills in order for him to show up.

Mathijs

Yeah, seems to fit what those involved have said, but maybe when he was at home and sober he played some Django!?

Yah joking this time?

Man, I can do that with just 2 fingers.

Mathijs

I know if you're a huge Brian fan that it's hard to imagine the depths that he descended to, MAJESTY, but it's not just Goddard's movie that showed Brian asleep or stoned, there are a ton of still photos from those sessions and most show him not looking so good...and to further the point, I am currently reading Pete Townshend's bio and he references the Rock 'n Roll Circus where he was alarmed by how awful Brian looked. That was 1968 and he was showing signs of the drug abuse big time. Pete says he had bags under his eyes, red-rimmed eyes, and could not stay awake. He said Brian wanted out of there...
Really, this is OLD news....the sad truth is he was not able to continue the way he was. That being said, I don't think he drowned due to drugs, I always felt he was murdered....he was a sad man...
He was angry over the Mick/Keith alliance, their song writing ( he knew he was not a song writer and it bothered him), so he turned to a lot of substances to kill the pain. I feel silly even recounting this because we've all heard it a million times!

I think people give too much credit to Mick and Keith and Anita for what happened to Brian Jones. I knew someone who drank and drugged himself to death before he was 35 years old. It had nothing to do with how people treated him and everything to do with his own demons and subsequent mental instability. He was in rehab at least 4 or 5 times, I can't remember now, and many people did try to help him get better.

I think it's pointless to try to pin blame for Brian's sad descent on other individuals, he was not a well person mentally or physically. He did seem to be trying to get better when he drowned, so we'll never know if he would have been able to pull himself together.

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latebloomer
I think people give too much credit to Mick and Keith and Anita for what happened to Brian Jones. I knew someone who drank and drugged himself to death before he was 35 years old. It had nothing to do with how people treated him and everything to do with his own demons and subsequent mental instability. He was in rehab at least 4 or 5 times, I can't remember now, and many people did try to help him get better.

I think it's pointless to try to pin blame for Brian's sad descent on other individuals, he was not a well person mentally or physically. He did seem to be trying to get better when he drowned, so we'll never know if he would have been able to pull himself together.

we never know...........

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mickschix
I know if you're a huge Brian fan that it's hard to imagine the depths that he descended to, MAJESTY, but it's not just Goddard's movie that showed Brian asleep or stoned, there are a ton of still photos from those sessions and most show him not looking so good...and to further the point, I am currently reading Pete Townshend's bio and he references the Rock 'n Roll Circus where he was alarmed by how awful Brian looked. That was 1968 and he was showing signs of the drug abuse big time. Pete says he had bags under his eyes, red-rimmed eyes, and could not stay awake. He said Brian wanted out of there...
Really, this is OLD news....the sad truth is he was not able to continue the way he was. That being said, I don't think he drowned due to drugs, I always felt he was murdered....he was a sad man...
He was angry over the Mick/Keith alliance, their song writing ( he knew he was not a song writer and it bothered him), so he turned to a lot of substances to kill the pain. I feel silly even recounting this because we've all heard it a million times!

One Plus One does not show Brian asleep or stoned. It just shows him sitting strumming his guitar. Most of the photos from the Beggars Banquet sessions come from the same sessions featured in the One Plus One movie. There isn't actually that much other photos from the other Beggars Banquet session dates.

The only known to us footage showing Brian obviously wasted in the studio dates from 1967 Their Satanic Majesties Request recording sessions and this footage was partially shown as part of the We Love You promo film and also in Crossfire Hurricane. Despite this footage, during this time period Brian still managed to contribute ace mellotron, harmonica, electric dulcimer, hammond organ etc etc.

None of this is a denial that he got wasted, but the thread is meant to about his musical cotributions and blanket statements about him being wasted does not really mean anything or give any insight in to what he played.

It's not hard to imagine the depths from what we have been told, but we probably don't know the full truth about these supposed depths he descended in to. We certainly do not know the full truth about his musicianship during these times.

It is important to consider that we don't have his side of the story.

***

Go here and listen and focus on the instrument I highlight at the start of the videos and consider what a triumph these contributions are considering the depths he descended in to...

[www.youtube.com]





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-05 03:23 by His Majesty.

Keith and Mick were heading off into Country/Rock and maybe Brian didn't want to.

Various things he might not have been interested in.

There are rumours of Brian and CCR but who knows, maybe he had plans to do his own Country/Rock thing or maybe it's just rumour BS.

He was never even interested much in the guitar in the early days and preferred harmonica according to one of his early interviews.

Taylor was the player who could cover the Country/Rock/Blues things where Keith and Mick were heading and not Brian so much.

It was the era of the lead guitarist.

What's odd about Brian is that he never seemed to have recorded a lead solo (not slide).

In one of his last interviews, he says that he's going into World music more and seemed to be pissed off at Keith and Mick and songwriting royalties or that was my impression anyway.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-05 08:45 by howled.

It's these little morsels that continue to make Brian fascinating. He wants to go into world music. He's already ahead of the game. The Rolling Stones were going backwards in a way, returning to their roots. Brian probably felt they'd already been there, done that, so why return? He wants to make music that it will take the rest of the pop music world a few years to become aware of, and many more years before it really takes off.

Maybe there was no core Brian Jones. He simply moved from thing to thing, being an artist and creating something interesting out of what he was given. He probably would have abhorred the idea that he would be forced to play 'Get Off of My Cloud' when he was 70 years old. In a sense he had gone as far with the Stones as he could go. As long as they had been moving forward and he could go off in many directions with their sound, he was interested. But once it was apparent they were going to narrow-cast their music into a limited rock and blues formula, he retreated until he was forced to leave by his own passivity and non-contribution.

The only question remaining, and which will remain eternally unanswerable, is would there have been a second act for Brian Jones? Could he have revived himself in time, and cleared his head out and created something new? His death left his story to end rather pathetically. We will never know if it could have been triumphant in the end.

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24FPS
It's these little morsels that continue to make Brian fascinating. He wants to go into world music. He's already ahead of the game. The Rolling Stones were going backwards in a way, returning to their roots. Brian probably felt they'd already been there, done that, so why return? He wants to make music that it will take the rest of the pop music world a few years to become aware of, and many more years before it really takes off.

That all sounds nice, but in the end Brian didn't create anything of his own, did he? This Joujouka stuff is a mere recording of Moroccan chants, spoiled by phasing effects. Brian didn't create anything there. The only thing he created is the movie soundtrack, which by any means isn't in any 'new' musical direction, nor is it any good.

Mathijs

He might have done something in progressive Rock, like Tull or something, but it needs a band, so it would depend on the members of the band and not just Brian.

I can't see Brian as a solo artist being a big thing, myself.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-05 09:52 by howled.

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Mathijs

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24FPS
It's these little morsels that continue to make Brian fascinating. He wants to go into world music. He's already ahead of the game. The Rolling Stones were going backwards in a way, returning to their roots. Brian probably felt they'd already been there, done that, so why return? He wants to make music that it will take the rest of the pop music world a few years to become aware of, and many more years before it really takes off.

That all sounds nice, but in the end Brian didn't create anything of his own, did he? This Joujouka stuff is a mere recording of Moroccan chants, spoiled by phasing effects. Brian didn't create anything there. The only thing he created is the movie soundtrack, which by any means isn't in any 'new' musical direction, nor is it any good.

Mathijs

That's your negative point of view, here's my positive take on those things...

Brian wrote the soundtrack which was deemed good enough to please the director of the film for which the soundtrack was written. The soundtrack is the only real reason people watch the film. The soundtrack is ace in some parts, just ok in others.

The theme he wrote works wonderfully on the recorder and acoustic guitar. Pure, fragile beauty...





The jajouka album shows both his creative side and his respect for raw music. That is why we get a recreation of the sonic assault on one side, this actually being a composite of different recordings edited together, and a pure un-touched recording on the other side.

Side A of the Jajouja record is a psychedelic masterpeice imo.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-05 16:53 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

That's your negative point of view, here's my positive take on those things...

I actually didn't intend to be negative, but mere factual....

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

That's your negative point of view, here's my positive take on those things...

I actually didn't intend to be negative, but mere factual....

Mathijs

Those were your opinions, not facts.

I guess everything has to be conflict and positives and negatives swimming against each other for Pisces Jones. It's taken me a while to understand what the hell Frank Zappa admired the Stones for and then you hear some of that cacophony of Satanic Majesties and you get it when you hear Zappa's early Mothers of Invention albums. Zappa may have sensed something in Brian that others weren't seeing at the time. This is not to put Brian on some unrealistic pedestal, but he was intelligent, and since he didn't seem to have many intimates that understood him, we don't really know what his influences were. Sure, we know he had blues and jazz influences, but that was in the beginning. We don't get an idea of what he was into in the late 60s.

I can see Brian getting cleaned up with something to prove musically. George and John's first solo albums were the best in that respect. Brian would have been handicapped by his inability to write songs, sing, and maybe his weakness to be a star. But he had a lot of drive when motivated. Much as John was the overwhelming force of the early Beatles, Brian was that for the nascent Stones, and they all agree on that.

And of course it's always good to see Brian in a balanced way. But that doesn't take away that he was a fascinating individual who needs to be valued for more than his foppish image and self destruction.

Here's Still A Fool, as mentioned previously, with that sweet slide guitar

[youtu.be]

I think Brain could play a lot of instruments....just a nature feel I guess..but he wasn't an expert as he quoted himself



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His Majesty

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Mathijs

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24FPS
It's these little morsels that continue to make Brian fascinating. He wants to go into world music. He's already ahead of the game. The Rolling Stones were going backwards in a way, returning to their roots. Brian probably felt they'd already been there, done that, so why return? He wants to make music that it will take the rest of the pop music world a few years to become aware of, and many more years before it really takes off.

That all sounds nice, but in the end Brian didn't create anything of his own, did he? This Joujouka stuff is a mere recording of Moroccan chants, spoiled by phasing effects. Brian didn't create anything there. The only thing he created is the movie soundtrack, which by any means isn't in any 'new' musical direction, nor is it any good.

Mathijs

That's your negative point of view, here's my positive take on those things...

Brian wrote the soundtrack which was deemed good enough to please the director of the film for which the soundtrack was written. The soundtrack is the only real reason people watch the film. The soundtrack is ace in some parts, just ok in others.

The theme he wrote works wonderfully on the recorder and acoustic guitar. Pure, fragile beauty...





The jajouka album shows both his creative side and his respect for raw music. That is why we get a recreation of the sonic assault on one side, this actually being a composite of different recordings edited together, and a pure un-touched recording on the other side.

Side A of the Jajouja record is a psychedelic masterpeice imo.

Didn't create anything...what about the Stones?