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rootsmanQuote
treaclefingers
I don't wanna walk or talk about Brian, I just wanna see his face...
[www.iorr.org]
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Doxa
coffeepotman, I share your over-view. Philip Norman put it in his Stones book by saying that The Stones couldn't survive the 60's without Brian, but they couln't have survived the 70's with him...
I think the Stones have been very lucky - if that is anything to do with luck - for having their "third man" behind Mick and Keith, and front of Charlie and Bill. Brian was probably one of the most talented musical visionalists - a walking musical adventury - back in the 60's when that kind of quality was most needed (and we should not forget Brian's looks and sense of fashion, etc.). Taylor was the guitar ace when having one was the mark of credible rock band. And they got 'back-to-basics' Wood to the band just before the guitar gods and other 'dinosaur' self-important musicians turned out to be unfashinable by the punk challenge (and Ronnie also didn't look like some goddamn old hippie).
Of course, Brian's role was more like a second frontman, and Keith was the 'third man' in the early days, and Brian's role transformed very much, as did Taylor's and Wood's in the band (for example, since 1989 Ronnie's contribution has not been much more what Brian had 1968-69), but in a long run, it is fun to make generalations like this!
- Doxa
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kleermaker
Doxa, I couldn't disagree more with these statements in the first part of your post:
- "back in the 60's when that kind of quality was most needed (and we should not forget Brian's looks and sense of fashion, etc.)"
- "Taylor was the guitar ace when having one was the mark of credible rock band."
- "And they got 'back-to-basics' Wood to the band just before the guitar gods and other 'dinosaur' self-important musicians turned out to be unfashinable by the punk challenge (and Ronnie also didn't look like some goddamn old hippie)."
This is too much opportunism to tolerate.
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jamesfdouglas
This isn't off topic, I was thinking about the name of the thread - I wanna hear Brian...
I wanna hear him on certain songs on the Rock and Roll Circus where I SEE him playing his guitar but no sound from it - Jumpin Jack Flash, You can't Always Get, even Parachute Women! Where is he???
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neptuneQuote
jamesfdouglas
This isn't off topic, I was thinking about the name of the thread - I wanna hear Brian...
I wanna hear him on certain songs on the Rock and Roll Circus where I SEE him playing his guitar but no sound from it - Jumpin Jack Flash, You can't Always Get, even Parachute Women! Where is he???
Great question that has never been properly answered. Was he not plugged in? Was he edited out? Did he play terribly (and thus the edit job)? I guess we'll never know. Mick and Keith certainly do . . .
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Doxa
Kleermaker, I cannot understand what you exactly disagree with me. I just captured the essential features of the those three 'third men' in the story of the Rolling Stones from the factual base that The Stones has been incredibly succesfull through the decades.
You might idolize those five years mr. Taylor spend with the band but that's only one - though important and great - chapter in a longer story (I would also agree with you that it marked the peak of them, and Taylor had a great deal to do with it). The Stones were incredibly popular before Taylor joined, and they were that after his departure.
Personally you might not like 'post-Taylor' Stones but quite many of us do. For example, I take BLACK&BLUE and SOME GIRLS to be much more interesting and better albums than IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL that is a very mediocre Stones album in Stones (70's) standards. What should we imply of that? It sounds like all Taylor could contribute to the Stones were already given in STICKY FINGERS, EXILE and GOATS HEAD SOAP. Seemingly, Taylor couldn't save The Stones going creative downhill if Mick and expecially Keith weren't "clicking", and he couldn't any longer inspire them. One could say harshly that Taylor was "used" by then (and he was not the first in that list). Seemingly too, getting out of him, and getting some new face(s) around, kicked the arses of the Twins, and they found a new gear in their creative mobile. To not have Taylor any longer around, and having new approaches and guitar sounds, makes the albums from B&B to UNDERCOVER different and I think more interesting. The same is with the tours. Ad if we look at the results: they gathered once again a new - and last - big fan generation (mine ) that was very satisfied with the band's current doings. We didn't even know - or at least care - who Mick Taylor was.
I need to say that it is typical to older generation of fans is to the underestimate the value of 'punk' era - it was nost just Sex Pistols, Ramones or The Clash and 1977 - but the whole difference in thinking of the rock culture and I think that really affected to whole generation of teenagers of that era (that would take quite few years to the 80's), one of the last big rock main stream generations (that intentionally wanted to get rid of certain 60's/70's standards and icons, and of the whole story of how the rock had 'progressed' so far). The Stones, somehow, did surprisingly well.. their image as 'original' rebels and simple form of their raw music clicked really well at the time. Jagger understood that especially well with SOME GIRLS, and the raunchy Richards/Wood guitar axis was cooler than hell (like I said earlier, they were lucky to have Wood onboard already a couple of years before the punk challenge; they already had a good team to meet the challenge). SOME GIRS was their most important album since BEGGARS BANQUET - like BB ten years earlier that album save their future. The Stones could once again - and for the last time - reinvent themselves with convincing results. With the idea and sound of SOME GIRLS they would live the following, crucial years and not to be laughed out as old tired farts. It was still the inspired 'post-Taylor' era Jagger that made TATTOO YOU - a collection of old out-takes - remarkable release.
I think Wood was excellent guy to have in that era. I cannot think anyone else to suit to those shoes better than him in those days. That doesn't take anything out of "Taylor-era" or "Brian-era". It is just another distinguished era in its own terms and music.
What goes for the roles of the third men in band dynamics, and how they transformed through the years (and members), I already hinted in my post, and I don't go to details now. Yeah, they varied, and changed a lot.
Sorry for going OT. I hope we get back to Brian...
- Doxa
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DiamondDog7
I know that Keith plays the guitar on all the tracks on Beggars Banquet. But does Brian also play the guitar on Jumpin Jack Flash and Stray Cat Blues?
Stoned was a horrible attempt to tell the story of Brian Jones. It's based on a book that is built on speculations and both the director and writer are far too interested to show Brian as a "sex, drugs and rock n roll"-character than to show us who he really was. Sadly, that kind of stuff only feed the negative aspect of Brian that's been one-sidedly told for a loooong time.Quote
jamesfdouglas
I'm one of those fans for whom Brian is a ghost. He died 4 years before I was born after all. I do agree with the whole 'cult personality' thing a bit. Further perpetuated by stuff like this...
It's there, according to His Majesty (and I trust his ears), but it's very low in the mix and most of what he play is in the same register as the bass wich blur him out. If you have the 25x5 documentary Brian is more audible on the YCAGWYW take from RnR-Circus than on the official release. He is not playing bad on any of the numbers but nothing spectacular either. He does the job and it sounds good. I guess somebody (no names mentioned) took the opportunity in 1996 to lower his guitar in an attempt to diminish his role in the band even further...Quote
jamesfdouglas
I wanna hear him on certain songs on the Rock and Roll Circus where I SEE him playing his guitar but no sound from it - Jumpin Jack Flash, You can't Always Get, even Parachute Women! Where is he???
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tonterapi
He is not playing bad on any of the numbers but nothing spectacular either. He does the job and it sounds good. I guess somebody (no names mentioned) took the opportunity in 1996 to lower his guitar in an attempt to diminish his role in the band even further...
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His Majesty
Although some of these parts are not exactly essential and nearly inaudible(Harmonica on Prodigal Son is mixed out, but heard via mic bleed), they are part of the sound and feel of Beggars Banquet and it shows he was present and contributing more than we are lead to believe.
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His MajestyQuote
DiamondDog7
I know that Keith plays the guitar on all the tracks on Beggars Banquet. But does Brian also play the guitar on Jumpin Jack Flash and Stray Cat Blues?
Brian plays slide guitar on No Expectations and according to Bill guitar on Jumpin' Jack Flash. He also plays some great authentic sounding bluesy slide on the 1968 outtake Still A Fool/Two Trains Running.
Aside from that he most likely played:
Harmonica - Dear Doctor, Parachute Woman and Prodigal Son
Mellotron - Jigsaw Puzzle.
Sitar and Tamboura - Street Fighting Man
Soprano Saxophone - Child of the Moon
Although some of these parts are not exactly essential and nearly inaudible(Harmonica on Prodigal Son is mixed out, but heard via mic bleed), they are part of the sound and feel of Beggars Banquet and it shows he was present and contributing more than we are lead to believe.
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jamesfdouglas
I'd always thought as the 'Wood era' to be roughly the 10 year stretch between Black and Blue and Dirty Work. I mean, how many songs are credited to Jagger/Richards/Wood vs the single Jagger/Richards/Taylor song? Ten (counting Dance Pt 1 & 2) - four of them on Dirty Work!
Jones Era - 62-69
Taylor Era - 69-74
Wood Era - 75-86
Vegas Era - 89-07