This is my first post on IORR and I wish I had something nice to say about the new EOMS vinyl reissue published by Universal. Well, I do have some nice things to say. It's a good quality 180g pressing and for a double album it's surprisingly moderately priced at 22.99 Euros (from Amazon Germany +13.99 for express delivery).

BUT, the audio sucks. Big time. EOMS has been my favorite album of all times from the day it came out in May 1972. Since then I have acquired at least two dozen different US, UK, German, Italien, French and Japanese pressings from various vintages and distributing lables and they all sound better than this latest version, the differences ranging from markedly better to ridiculously better.

What's wrong with the new one? To put it bluntly, the balls are gone. No dynamics, no deep bass, no ambience, no drive, no transparency, no atmosphere. I won't speculate too much as to why this should be so, but I strongly doubt this reissue is AAA. It doesn't sound as though it was (heavily) EQed or otherwise doctored with too severely either. It simply sounds like far too many mediocre digital remasterings do: dull, lifeless, lacking in detail, air, extension at the frequency extremes and, worst of all, punch in the all-important midrange. If I got Don Was right in a recent radio interview, the main problem with Exile is that the original master tapes from which the original metal masters were cut, got lost a long time ago. That's why for Virgin's EOMS remastering of the mid 1990s it was even suggested for engineer Bob Ludwig to use a decent vinyl copy as the "master" from which to cut the reissue, something Ludwig, who takes pride in what he's doing, refused to even consider.

In real life I work for a reputable Scottish high end audio manufacturer and my main system is what many, including myself, believe is one of the most musically satisfying, full-range, ultra hi-res audio systems money can buy. But you don't have to play the new EOMS vinyl on a mega-buck system to be disappointed, it sounds just as lousy on a good real-world hifi. No golden ears, no nit picking here – the differences are obvious and painfully so. (Re-)mastering and cutting a record is an art as much as a craft and a science, and I'm afraid whoever was in charge of this Exile reissue was neither an artist, nor a scientist or a particularly skilled craftsman. And most definitely not an audiophile.

Now, does it matter? After all, even most Stones fans seem to believe that EOMS is not exactly an audiophile gem. Well, I couldn't agree less. True, Exile is something of a mixed bag, sonically, with certain tracks suffering from very dense mixing and others from, what I believe is, Jagger's notorious post-production knob twiddling, this time at Sunset in Hollywood. On the other hand, thanks to Andy and Glyn Johns and Jimmy Miller most tracks are role models for big, fat, juicy, damp, wet, airy, organic ROCK'N'ROLL sound par excellence, with Loving Cup sporting simply the best drum sound I've ever heard on any rock recording. Period.

So treat yourselves to an original UK pressing if you like it super clean and wee a bit polite; or an original US pressing if you like it hot and don't mind a trifle distortion; or an original German pressing if you're German and don't like shopping on the international bay. Forget expensive Japanese boutique pressings, they're super clean, super noise-free and super boring. Fantastic sounding original US, UK and Germany copies are still plenty and won't cost you more than this heart-breakingly lifeless reissue. Remember, tape doesn't improve with age, so this collector's rule of thumb goes: the older, the merrier. As for myself, I'm still trying to locate this elusive US promotional copy allegedly mastered by the great late George Piros (employed by the Stones's then distributing label Atlantic), the doyen of mastering engineers. If it does exist, I'll find it and I know it'll blow the rest out of the water.

In the meantime, dear Glimmer Twins, please return to analogue recording and (vinyl) mastering for your next album and by all means hire someone with good ears for the control room. Hey, the Brothers Johns are still around, aren't they?

Thanks for the technical explanation.
My ears and my sound system are probably a lot simpler than yours, because in my living room the new vinyl sounds soo much better than the old one. I don't know if the pressing in the boxset is different from the one sold seperately as 2LP. I got the boxset and am very happy with the sound of the vinyl.

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

Very interesting post : so according to you modern vinyls suck because they are pressed from the same crappy digital "masters" that are used to make CDs.

dcba, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that modern vinyl sucks in general or that analogue is inherently superior to digital. Even though I for one clearly prefer analogue for the simple reason that 99 percent of my favorite music was recorded that way, my own company produces hi-res 24bit/92kHz digital music that sounds phenomenally natural.

The problems with modern vinyl and modern recording in general is that too many artists, producers, recording and mixing/mastering engineers, and label execs simply have not the faintest clue about what a good sounding recording is, let alone how to get one done.

But there's hope: the iPod generation may not yet know what's real good sound either, but they do know how to use modern technology and hi-res network streaming is just about the ideal method of enjoying digitally recorded music of breathtaking technical quality.

From what I hear from my company colleagues in recording even the labels are now slowly beginning to realize that good-quality sound actually boosts sales!

Keith R. in a recent TV interview said that for sound reasons (pun intended) vinyl was still his format of choice. I only wish someone sat him and Mick and Don Was in front of a decent hifi to let them hear just how dramatically the Stones' own recorded sound has deteriorated over the years. I bet they would be in for a big shock!

Ulim - I don't have that many copies, but I do have a UK first pressing, a US first pressing (with "promo" stickers, but appears to be a stock first pressing), a Japan first pressing, the US Columbia pressing, and the RTI 180 Gram "audiophile" pressing.

I agree that the new vinyl seems to lack some of the "life" of the first pressings, but it isn't that bad, and it's certainly better than the RTI 180 gram pressing, which is a disaster. I agree that Exile is actually a very good sounding album; "Loving Cup" sounds spectacular with a wide, deep soundstage (the vocals coming from the back of the room literally) and spectacular drum sound. Listening to the album as a whole can be disconcerting, because the sound moves from a nice wide stereo, to near mono narrow mixes from track to track. Side 2 is a good example as it goes from wide (Sweet Virginia) to narrow (Torn & Frayed, Sweet Black Angel) and back to wide (Loving Cup). The transition from All Down the Line (basically mono) to Stop Breaking Down (wide stereo) is also jarring. I think many people focus on the "mono" cuts and write off the whole album, but if they listened carefully, they would hear the wide variation of mixing styles used.

Quote
ulim
As for myself, I'm still trying to locate this elusive US promotional copy allegedly mastered by the great late George Piros (employed by the Stones's then distributing label Atlantic), the doyen of mastering engineers. If it does exist, I'll find it and I know it'll blow the rest out of the water.

Thanks for the education Ulim but re: the George Piros Master.........you sound like a juror that has
already made up his mind before the trial.


IORR............but I like it!

Quote
drbryant
"Loving Cup" sounds spectacular with a wide, deep soundstage (the vocals coming from the back of the room literally) and spectacular drum sound. Listening to the album as a whole can be disconcerting, because the sound moves from a nice wide stereo, to near mono narrow mixes from track to track. Side 2 is a good example as it goes from wide (Sweet Virginia) to narrow (Torn & Frayed, Sweet Black Angel) and back to wide (Loving Cup). The transition from All Down the Line (basically mono) to Stop Breaking Down (wide stereo) is also jarring. I think many people focus on the "mono" cuts and write off the whole album, but if they listened carefully, they would hear the wide variation of mixing styles used.

I'm guessing that's attritubutal to the difference in mixing engineers - the "wide stereo" mixes are probably Joe Zagarino's, and the "mono" mixes are probably Andy Johns'.

Ulim

Couldn't agree more.

C

p.s. 1 I have a US promo copy that is a true BOMB. Don't know if it is the one you are looking for.

I don't agree with your review Ulim. The vinyl version sound good to me. I hear 'air'and 'oomph' in the recording. The resolution used for the vinyl is high(er) than the cd counterpart. It is at least 24/44.1 and probably 24/96.

What is pitiful about all this is, is the 'brickwalling' and compression used in the cd version. We can thank the mastering engineer for that ((Marcussen) For vinyl versions of a release, companies (should) have to use 24/96 or even 24/192 files (if they are using digital files for the masters). And have to keep the dynamics intact. (it is after all not for a friggin' Ipod but for a hifi stereo set-up)

What I (as a consumer) also would like in a new (vinyl) release, is that a company should be more upfront in telling the buyer the source file for this. 16 bit or higher, or all analogue. They can do that for example with a sticker on the sleeve. I want to now what I'm buying!

A great reissue campaign on vinyl, is the latest batch of Hendrix records.
1 : All analogue (the info is on a sticker on the sleeve). 2 : Great packaging (the best protective innersleeve I've seen yet. 3 : Quality of the vinyl is outstanding 4 : The price is affordable. All great sound, and to my ears, the sound is outstanding. Better than most originals to my ears (Sony)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-31 14:52 by barbabang.

According to this blog [myvinylreview.blogspot.com] : The vinyl cutting is credited to veteran engineer, Doug Sax of The Mastering Lab, from a 24-bit/44.1 kHz file provided by Stephen Marcussen, who remastered the Deluxe Edition Cd.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-31 15:01 by barbabang.

The original stereo master is lost somewhere, sometimes between 1994 and today.

So it was decided to use a mint copy of a mint original 1972 2LP pressing as master source.

A copy remains a copy. Maybe this is the reason why it sucks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-31 15:15 by Mister J.

Quote
Mister J
The original stereo master is lost somewhere, sometimes between 1994 and today.

So it was decided to use a mint copy of a mint original 1972 2LP pressing as master source.

A copy remains a copy. Maybe this is the reason why it sucks.

ok now i'm slightly confused. do you know for a fact that the new EOMS (all formats) is from
a mint '72 vinyl LP?

and the '94 Virgin release (all formats) was from the original stereo master?

please clarify. thanks.


IORR............but I like it!

Barbabang, thanks so much for your posts. Very good! I am looking forward to hearing my vinyl when I get home. Thanks!

Didn't they just use the CD master on the new vinyl issue? That's what it sounds like to these ears. Common practice too. The 30th Anniversary vinyl issue of Dark Side of the Moon was the same.

to make myself perfectly clear: I have nothing but respect for both Doug Sax and Stephen Marcussen's work, and I strongly doubt that what I think makes this EOMS vinyl reissue suck has anything to do with said gentlemen's contribution in the reissue process.

No one can cook a great meal from questionable ingredients, which is to say you just shouldn't expect a great sounding remastering if the original tapes (or first-generation copies thereof) are no longer available. Au contraire, my friends, the better the remastering (technically speaking), the higher the resolution, the better your turntable system, the clearer will you hear this EOMS reissue's sonic deficiencies compared to a good original copy.

Remember too, there's a lot that can go wrong on a recording's way from the studio, to the mastering house, to plating, and finally to the pressing pant. Wasn't it the great Bob Ludwig, who after listening to an LP pressing of his Sticky Fingers remastering for Virgin, was so shocked by its poor sound, he decided to give up on vinyl for good...?

Wow! What an impassioned indictment. I'm going to have to make work of A/Bing the new one with the original this afternoon. I thought the new one was quite good.

I have a copy of the cbs vinyl. Does it sound any diff than original atco pressings? I would think that back then the same recordings were used for all their vinyl. Ive had it since '82. Anyone know?

Quote
ulim
But there's hope: the iPod generation may not yet know what's real good sound either, but they do know how to use modern technology and hi-res network streaming is just about the ideal method of enjoying digitally recorded music of breathtaking technical quality.

i wouldn't say there's hope. like you said, the iPod generation doesn't know what sounds good AND they don't care. that is the key to the issue. they just don't care. they want their music on their ipods, ipads, cell phones, blah blah blah. it's a very small percentage of the listening audience that actually care about sound and it's a shame.

Ipod gen could care less about sound and never will. Just convenience. Its a damned shame too. Oh, theyre the ones missing out. Mp3s sucked the life out of music.

Quote
out of my head
I have a copy of the cbs vinyl. Does it sound any diff than original atco pressings? I would think that back then the same recordings were used for all their vinyl. Ive had it since '82. Anyone know?

the CBS remaster has surprisingly good sound actually. I'd give it a solid 7-8 out of the very best ATCO's 10. The CBS Sticky Fingers is also something of a sleeper, that's true even for Dutch pressings for the European market.

Quote
out of my head
Ipod gen could care less about sound and never will. Just convenience. Its a damned shame too. Oh, theyre the ones missing out. Mp3s sucked the life out of music.

my company takes a very close look at who's buying our high end network streamers. They are either audiophiles, or they're ex-iPodders fed up with the crappy sound of their machines.

Granted, the vast majority still has no clue but its getting increasingly hip among youngsters to own real hifi again. And to buy music not from iTunes but from labels offering 24/96 hi-res downloads.

As I said, there IS hope!

Thanks for the review ulim. I won't bother with the vinyl now and just stick with my 1979/80 UK copy.

I don't know if my system (Axis/Goldring/Arcam) would be able to show the difference,but I have never seen the point of going away from AAA on vinyl and never will.

scuk

Quote
Mister J
The original stereo master is lost somewhere, sometimes between 1994 and today.

So it was decided to use a mint copy of a mint original 1972 2LP pressing as master source.

A copy remains a copy. Maybe this is the reason why it sucks.

they didn't use the vinyl as a master . ludwig used it as a guide to create a new master

Quote
straycatuk
Thanks for the review ulim. I won't bother with the vinyl now and just stick with my 1979/80 UK copy.

I don't know if my system (Axis/Goldring/Arcam) would be able to show the difference,but I have never seen the point of going away from AAA on vinyl and never will.

scuk

no worries, your Axis is still a very fine turntable by today's standards and easily capable of showing the difference between a good and a mediocre pressing

My 2 vinyl records produce good music but All Down the Line is a different story. There is a loud hissing in the background, as if the needle is about to go (but it is a fairly new needle). It seems to be playing at a slightly slower speed than the original. Also, the big booming bass by Bill Plummer or Bill Wyman is not there. This thick bass in the first thirty seconds of the original is one of the main things I admire in this song. It really picks up the tempo and, to me, is one of the song's highlights.

Fascinating conversation. I spent yesterday afternoon and this morning A/Bing sides one and two between the new vinyl and a pristine copy of the original ATCO (I own three) on a quality Thorens turntable through a Sunfire powered system. I found the new version does indeed seem to flesh out some of the sonics here and there, files off a few rough edges, fills in some empty aural space and brings a bit of insturmentation, heretofore unheard, to the front of the mix BUT....

....the original version just sounds like the Exile On Mainstreet that I've known and loved for 38 years....

Quote
barbabang
According to this blog [myvinylreview.blogspot.com] : The vinyl cutting is credited to veteran engineer, Doug Sax of The Mastering Lab, from a 24-bit/44.1 kHz file provided by Stephen Marcussen, who remastered the Deluxe Edition Cd.

If it hasn't occurred to anyone to email Mr. Sax for his opinion, or to set the record straight, I just did. I'll pass on any info I might receive.

Quote
ghostryder13

Quote
Mister J
The original stereo master is lost somewhere, sometimes between 1994 and today.

So it was decided to use a mint copy of a mint original 1972 2LP pressing as master source.

A copy remains a copy. Maybe this is the reason why it sucks.

they didn't use the vinyl as a master . ludwig used it as a guide to create a new master

Yes,I just now listened to the interview in question (Don Was interviewed by Pierre Robert for WMMR in Philadelphia), and he said the original EQ'd master mixes (meaning, the production master that was made FROM the original UN-EQ'd stereo mixdown tape, and then used to produce the vinyl LPs in '72) had gone missing. They desired it so that it could be used as a point of reference for them to remaster the un-EQ'd mixdown tape for CD in '94, meaning they understood that it was "tweaked" significantly to the taste of the Stones & Jimmy Miller when that production master was made. The un-EQ'd tape, as Jagger pointed out in some interview, was wildly inconsistent in levels and in other ways. Was made the point that subsequent pressings of the album would suffer from some mastering engineer in Germany working the night shift deciding it needed more treble, for instance. They wanted the '94 CD to sound like the '72 LP, but after a previous mastering attempt by Ludwig resulted in a version that sounded "like a modern record in 1994, which was virtually unrecognizable as 'Exile On Main Street'", and the '72 production tape missing, they resorted to using a virgin vinyl 1972 LP (bought from someone advertising in Goldmine), and asked Ludwig to "straight copy" it over. Fortunately, said Was, Ludwig had too much pride for that, and ended up creating a new master by matching the sounds. Was' only real comment about the new (2010) version is that you can hear a few things better than before.

Ehhh, this is getting confusing. The UMe vinyl reissue is...the UMe CD remaster on vinyl?

Well if that's the case then that's just wrong.

Quote
CMan
bought from someone advertising in Goldmine

Don't they keep copies of these things themselves?