when the Stones fired Brian Jones and replaced him in 1969...
and then honored him a short while later at the concert in Hyde Park...

do you think that they had a guilty conscience?
or felt hypocritical?

Neither.

They were simply paying their public respects to a former member who had just died - simple as that. It's called being respectful.

Good answer.

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Big Al
Neither.

They were simply paying their public respects to a former member who had just died - simple as that. It's called being respectful.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-10-07 20:14 by schillid.

I liked when Mick mentioned Brian Jones at the Stones' hall of fame induction whenever that was.... (and the fact that Mick Taylor had joined them onstage.)

Very respectful.

Even though the Stones are not tend to gather cheap points by making songs to dead blondes or act a'la 'big hearted' Pink Floyd toward their ex-bandmates, etc,. they did several other public respects as well. Dedicated the album THROUGH THE PAST, DARKLY to him. Released his Joujouka album as the first release of their own Rolling Stones Records label. Also certain songs have probable references to him ("Shina A Light", "Coming Down Again"). Mick and Keith's trip to Marocco and record those Joujouka guys in 1989 ("Continetal Drift") seems also to be a kind of tribute to talents of Brian,

Nowadays they seem to remember him barely as an arsehole... Much of it has to be with the release of Bill Wyman's STONE ALONE in early 90's that tends to give a bit too much weight to Brian in expanse of Mick and Keith.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-10-07 22:13 by Doxa.

If you read Andrew Loog Oldham's Stoned and 2Stoned books it's clear everybody was fed up with Brian already in very early '65. The way Oldham describes Brian it must have been a horrible character.

No, I don't think the Stones had very deep feeling about Brian's passing.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
If you read Andrew Loog Oldham's Stoned and 2Stoned books it's clear everybody was fed up with Brian already in very early '65. The way Oldham describes Brian it must have been a horrible character.

No, I don't think the Stones had very deep feeling about Brian's passing.

Mathijs

The way for example Keith Richards acts tells quite the opposite to the last point (one does not need to be a big psychologist to tell that). Remember Mathijs, Brian was not your friend or bandmate, but theirs - and I should advice to think twice before try to estimate such a personal issue unless you think you are, say, Keith Richards (ask Ronnie Wood how Keith reacts if one touches Brian's guitar - I guess you know the story). Better to just consult one's own feelings (in the case of you, your comment in the other thread speaks volumes; the best thing ever happened to the Stones was Brian's death...).

The very fact that people do not get along always very well (it is documented not only in ALO's books, but in many other sources as well) does not imply that a tragedy of that sort has not an impact to one's feelings - and I think in the case of the Stones, particularly Mick and Keith, there was so much going between them and Brian, women, music, carerr, and surely, a guiltiness of some happenings of the past and their role in Brian's demise, that I would guess that it was no a small thing for them at all. The fact that they do not show any personal emotions in public will not imply either that they don't have feelings or emotions in private sphere.

Very telling is the description of the scene in one of their hotel rooms in Ameriacn Tour 1972 where they gathered together, and listened to Brian's just released Joujouka album, and according to one Keith Richards biography, cried the whole night. Human they are, even with a heart of stone....

Funny Mathijs, you resemble the fanatic Brian Jones fans (your arche enemies) in the sense that you wanted to think that Mick and Keith basically loathe Brian - and don't give a shit about him. They share the same argument - they just think that Mick and Leith are disgusting people, you think that it is alright!><

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-10-08 18:59 by Doxa.

Keith didn't break down adn cry listening to Joujouka. BS.

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HEILOOBAAS
Keith didn't break down adn cry listening to Joujouka. BS.

Do you know this for sure?

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Sleepy City

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HEILOOBAAS
Keith didn't break down adn cry listening to Joujouka. BS.

Do you know this for sure?

Maybe they cried because the record is unlistenable?

I always thought Can You Hear The Music was about/inspired by Brian with all those Moroccan sounding chiming bells.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-10-08 15:50 by His Majesty.

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Sleepy City

Quote
HEILOOBAAS
Keith didn't break down adn cry listening to Joujouka. BS.

Do you know this for sure?

If you're asking did Keith call me from the Sherry Netherland Hotel in New York City at my home in Hicksville, New York, just before he and I left New York, the answer is no.

What I can tell you is that they were fed up w/Brian's antics by the time they fired him.

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Doxa

Quote
Mathijs
If you read Andrew Loog Oldham's Stoned and 2Stoned books it's clear everybody was fed up with Brian already in very early '65. The way Oldham describes Brian it must have been a horrible character.

No, I don't think the Stones had very deep feeling about Brian's passing.

Mathijs

The way for example Keith Richards acts tells quite the opposite to the last point (one does not need to be a big psychologist to tell that). Remember Mathijs, Brian was not your friend or bandmate, but theirs - and I should advice to think twice before try to estimate such a personal issue unless you think you are, say, Keith Richards (ask Ronnie Wood how Keith reacts if one touches Brian's guitar - I guess you know the story). Better to just consult one's own feelings (in the case of you, your comment in the other thread speaks volumes; the best thing ever happened to the Stones was Brian's death...).

The very fact that people do not get along always very well (it is documented not only in ALO's books, but in many other sources as well) does not imply that a tragedy of that sort has not an impact to one's feelings - and I think in the case of the Stones, particularly Mick and Keith, there was so much going between them and Brian, women, music, carerr, and surely, a guiltiness of some happenings of the past and their role in Brian's demise, that I would guess that it was no a small thing for them at all. The fact that they do not show any personal emotions in public will not imply either that they don't have feelings or emotions in private sphere.

Very telling is the description of the scene in one of their hotel rooms in Ameriacn Tour 1972 where they gathered together, and listened to Brian's just released Joujouka album, and according to one Keith Richards biography, cried the whole night. Human they are, even with a heart of stone....

Funny Mathijs, you resemble the fanatic Brian Jones fans (your arche enemies) in the sense that you wanted to think that Mick and Keith basically loathe Brian - and don't give a shit about him. They share the same argument - they just think that Mick and Leith are disgusting people, you think that it is alright!><

- Doxa

Well..if you read Oldhams' books, it appears that just about eveyone and his dog just hated Brian. He apparently was just a very, very nasty bugger with severe personal problems -they even tried to get legally rid of him as early as '65.

Of course, you and I were not part of it. But, if you read through the lines of about every book written about the Stones it's clear that Brian was a mentally ill person, with a very, very disturbed mind. He was a person that did not want to be loved, but hated -and he knew that very well.

Again, nobody cried over Brian's death, certainly not the Stones.

Mathijs

Mathijs has spoken and he is absolutely correct!

"The wonder of Jimi Hendrix was that he could stand up at all he was so pumped full of drugs." Patsy, Patsy Stone

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Mathijs

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Doxa

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Mathijs
If you read Andrew Loog Oldham's Stoned and 2Stoned books it's clear everybody was fed up with Brian already in very early '65. The way Oldham describes Brian it must have been a horrible character.

No, I don't think the Stones had very deep feeling about Brian's passing.

Mathijs

The way for example Keith Richards acts tells quite the opposite to the last point (one does not need to be a big psychologist to tell that). Remember Mathijs, Brian was not your friend or bandmate, but theirs - and I should advice to think twice before try to estimate such a personal issue unless you think you are, say, Keith Richards (ask Ronnie Wood how Keith reacts if one touches Brian's guitar - I guess you know the story). Better to just consult one's own feelings (in the case of you, your comment in the other thread speaks volumes; the best thing ever happened to the Stones was Brian's death...).

The very fact that people do not get along always very well (it is documented not only in ALO's books, but in many other sources as well) does not imply that a tragedy of that sort has not an impact to one's feelings - and I think in the case of the Stones, particularly Mick and Keith, there was so much going between them and Brian, women, music, carerr, and surely, a guiltiness of some happenings of the past and their role in Brian's demise, that I would guess that it was no a small thing for them at all. The fact that they do not show any personal emotions in public will not imply either that they don't have feelings or emotions in private sphere.

Very telling is the description of the scene in one of their hotel rooms in Ameriacn Tour 1972 where they gathered together, and listened to Brian's just released Joujouka album, and according to one Keith Richards biography, cried the whole night. Human they are, even with a heart of stone....

Funny Mathijs, you resemble the fanatic Brian Jones fans (your arche enemies) in the sense that you wanted to think that Mick and Keith basically loathe Brian - and don't give a shit about him. They share the same argument - they just think that Mick and Leith are disgusting people, you think that it is alright!><

- Doxa

Well..if you read Oldhams' books, it appears that just about eveyone and his dog just hated Brian. He apparently was just a very, very nasty bugger with severe personal problems -they even tried to get legally rid of him as early as '65.

Of course, you and I were not part of it. But, if you read through the lines of about every book written about the Stones it's clear that Brian was a mentally ill person, with a very, very disturbed mind. He was a person that did not want to be loved, but hated -and he knew that very well.

Again, nobody cried over Brian's death, certainly not the Stones.

Mathijs

Well, reading between the lines is quite a speculative piece of art, not very much 'facts' to begin with. Anyway, I think I offered my interpretaion and you did yours (of the psychology of the people involved) - and I don't think there is no sane reason to try to go further.

- Doxa

So what our Dutch friend here implicitly postulates, is that human beings
are not capable of possessing two contradictory sentiments at the same time.

Since our mentioned friend is more knowns as an expert of guitars than of the human psyche;
I suggest we bring in more voices and tongues in this topic.

He was an unbearable mofu; but why the hell couldnt he be mourned anyway:
the lads underwent quite some adventures in '62-'63; Edith Grove
& the early Stones career (not to mention the American conquest etc) etc

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Mathijs
He was a person that did not want to be loved, but hated -and he knew that very well.

I am glad you are doing him this favor then.

But to be serious,
The relationships between Brian and the others in the band are intrigueing as hell.
That's what the best relationships are. I guess there are some people I am related to
of whom I do not know whether I love them or hate them. So I can't imagine it is possible
to judge for someone else whether he feels love or hate towards somebody.

i also believe that brian was a very difficult person and a *ç&%/ hole sometimes.
but i always found it kinda disturbing that not all the bandmembers came to the funeral...

It saddens me that Mick and Keith continue to talk so badly about him, yes they do sometimes say something good about his playing etc, but there is always some kind of negative slant whenever they talk about Brian in interviews.

Ok Brian may have been a real aXXXole to them, but come on!? How many times does the shampooing his hair thing need to slipped in!? They didn't seem so negative the first few years after he died, but then things get rather nasty from about the mid 70's or so.

So that's like 30 plus years of public bad vibes man, that's really sad imo!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-10-10 16:56 by His Majesty.

I remeber being quite taken back by Keiths comments about Brian on the 25x5 video. IE, "Sh*t happens" when commenting on his demise.

Although, in recent interviews he's been a little kinder.

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Big Al
I remeber being quite taken back by Keiths comments about Brian on the 25x5 video. IE, "Sh*t happens" when commenting on his demise.

That wasn't about his death, but about the whole Brian - Anita - Keith in morrocco thing.

Going to a funeral is one thing, to miss as friend another.

I would suggest all to read Oldham's two books, it's an encredible insight in the English and American pop scene of the 60's, and it's a great read on how the Stones were formed and developed.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
I would suggest all to read Oldham's two books, it's an encredible insight in the English and American pop scene of the 60's, and it's a great read on how the Stones were formed and developed.

Mathijs

Indeed, but, Andrew is an a-hole, a clever one, but an a-hole all the same.

In an interview with Q Magazine a couple of years back (Oct 05), Keith was asked if there was one person he could bring back from the dead, who would it be.

"Muddy Waters. Without a doubt, Muddy." was his answer, without missing a beat.

"Poor old Brian Jones..." hinted the interviewer.

Keith's response:

"I wouldn't want to bring him back. He was an a*shole."

Seems pretty unequivocal (even though we all know how much Keith likes to posture).

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Mathijs
I would suggest all to read Oldham's two books, it's an encredible insight in the English and American pop scene of the 60's, and it's a great read on how the Stones were formed and developed.

Mathijs

Me, too. I highly recommend. Wonderful books. Absolutely 'must' reading to understand the topics Mathijs referred. But as far as our original topic is concerned here (how teh Stones reacted to the death of their founder), it's relevance does quite cover the point, even though he gives good insights to the dymanics between the guys prior summer 1967. Oldham has also stated in his interviews that he didn't know what what was going on the Stones camp during the time of Brian's death.

But we have to also keep in our mind that Oldhams's personal relation to Brian is a difficult topic of itself, and this needs to keep in mind while reading his books. And even one has mastered his books, this topic is still open to discussion (for example, if one wants to read 'between the lines', he gives quite a big weight to Brian's faith, demise, and death, like he does to his relationship with Ian Stewart. Some of the things seems to bother HIS conscience, at least). Generally, he is not very specific at all, but loves to have his artistic freedom in describing the scenes and actions. I do enjoy his style (contra, say, Bill Wyman's boring fact stating style).

- Doxa

Agree too (three?) about ALO books.
Nevertheless; its more complex than someones wanna paint it out.

Brian had many less fine sides; among the worst in this context as I see it,
is that he believed he could rule over Keith Richards & Mick Jagger.

Wihtout Brian there hadnt been any Stones, remember that!!
We dont have to agree with the glimmer dudes on everything ! ! !



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-10-11 17:51 by Baboon Bro.

OK, so here's the original question:

when the Stones fired Brian Jones and replaced him in 1969...
and then honored him a short while later at the concert in Hyde Park...

do you think that they had a guilty conscience?
or felt hypocritical?

As best I recall, this concert was already scheduled as an intro for Taylor.
Then Brian died. Then the Stones changed the theme.

Imagine if they had NOT done that but carried on without a mention of Brian.

I think that makes it quite clear.

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

No need tio be sentimenrtal about these things.
Yet Brian's name always causes fuzz till this very day.
No Brian, no Stones - simple as that.