on another thread the gallant Spud made this intriguing observation about Keith's playing:

>> he seems to be into playing a lot of horn riffs on guitar.
Maybe that's what he's been listening to and it's one of those phases he sometimes goes through. <<

the gallant CBII intriguingly replied:

>> VERY GOOD call. Someone I know plays Saxophone and that was transferred to Guitar.
Sax lines, figures and riffs are excellent tools in that bag of tricks that work well. <<

i am fascinated, and would love to hear more. can i coax you gentlemen into elaborating some on that?

we all know the story of Keith originally envisioning the Satisfaction riff as a horn riff;
and i vaguely remember an old interview (from around 1969 i think?) where he said he doesn't feel like "a horn person",
and that he was feeling a need for "a horn person" who could really communicate with the horn players
that they were integrating into the music. then he discovered that Bobby is his sax soulmate. :E

and that's about the extent of my knowledge of Keith & horns - and i am really feeling a need
for someone to educate me about the relationship between his playing and what horns do.
please and thank you and i'll make popcorn!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-24 10:34 by with sssoul.

That's interesting indeed
...and kinda explains the stop & go riffin' in some songs.
I've just been playing around with "Struggle" b/c of the other thread and that riff would certainly work as a horns section phrase.

I wonder if Keith thinks in these terms.

I also remember in an interview Keith said that the Riff on satisfaction is better suited for horns, similar to The Vandella's "Dancing in the Street". It actually sounds more like "Nowhere to run Nowhwere to hide."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-23 20:06 by ryanpow.

If you listen to some big band swing from the 40's, Glenn Millar etc.....you will hear a lot of horn riffs that you would swear were in Chuck Berry songs in the 50's....but played on a guitar.

......and we all know whose licks Keith lifted........

What goes around.......

....as Keith say's just passin' it on...........



Happy to be here....Happy to be anywhere.....

[www.myspace.com]

[www.facebook.com]

>> If you listen to some big band swing from the 40s, Glenn Miller etc. you will hear
a lot of horn riffs that you would swear were in Chuck Berry songs in the 50s, but played on a guitar. <<

yeah i believe that's exactly what the gallant CBII was suggesting - which would make Keith's affinity
for horn-type riffs/lines/figures quite fundamental to his playing. Spud though was referring to something
he hears in Keith's recent playing in particular, and i'd love to hear more about what he means.
i feel direly ignorant about horns, so i don't even know how to formulate the questions i have -
so please keep talking about it, people! [passing around the popcorn]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-23 23:16 by with sssoul.

listening to Otis Redding's version of "Satisfaction" should be illuminating, as the horns do the riff there.

I think the brightness of keith's tone is horn-like too, so it's in his sound, not just the lines he writes. He often plays bright, chirpy "chops" that sound like horn punctuations, again derived from r&b and soul arrangement styles.

>> listening to Otis Redding's version of "Satisfaction" should be illuminating <<

the Satisfaction riff isn't what i'm asking about, actually - what that has to do with horns is real plain.
i was intrigued by Spud talking about Keith's recent playing, and CBII's remark about the relationship
between sax lines and what someone he knows plays ... but carry on

In the Keith interview by Paul Trynka in MOJO's 40th Anniversary Special, there's a snippet that might help a tiny bit...

It goes:

'The last time I interviewed Keith Richards he said something very obvious that I'd never understood before, about the electric guitar had transformed the economics of popular music by enabling three or four people do the work of an eight piece band. suddenly those three or four people could snatch a sound out of the air, move more quicklythan their hornoriented forebars, and wipe them out in a kind of musical Darwinism.'

[Page 136]

it really helped me alot when i "studied" saxophone and trumpetplayers. for me it was not mainly the rhythmguitarwork that improved, but i learned alot about phrasing for my lead-stuff. the way they hold the notes and how they phrase is different to the guitar-approach of soloing! the almost never shred, they play melodies and they sound less stressed then many guitarplayers.

A good example of this is Honky Tonk Women.

When you played the original 45... The break after the 2nd chorus... it was sometimes hard to distinguish between the guitars and the real horns...

>> ' ... suddenly those three or four people could snatch a sound out of the air, move more quickly
than their horn-oriented forebears, and wipe them out in a kind of musical Darwinism.' <<

thanks Sohoe - that is a help (and like the author said, very obvious once someone says it!)
as we know the guitars taking over piano riffs/figures is also a major element in the evolution -
damn, it feels like an idea is fluttering around just out of reach and i still can't get ahold of it
to articulate my questions! more caffeine, more caffeine ...

Wanna thank the initiator of this thread
as well as all the contributors.

Most inspiring thread for years.

Hope ya get yer dosis, with sssoul!

with sssoul,

My dad played both Piano and Saxophone as well as the guitar. The sax and piano lines managed to make it to the guitar as his playing abilities progressed over the years.

Everyone must remember my father (and his contemporaries), grew up in the era of Louis Jordon, Count Basie, Glenn Miller, Duke Ellington and other greats. ALL of them had MONSTER horn sections that were a big emphasis of the bands. So were the piano players. You also have to remember Charlie Christian was in a big band. My dad readily admits Charlie being a big influence on him. That big band sound in addition to the country and western / blues musicians and music of the time naturally provided many of his idea's.

Keith Richards playing style, rooted in my dads riffs and figures are by default have horn lines built in. I can't remember all the types of music Keith listened to but Skittle, Country (Horns), Blues (Horns) and big band (Horns) were all at his disposal. The fact he grew up in the Mid Forties exposed him to big bands and their fantastic horn sections.

Its been great to hear his progression over the years. From a guitarist getting his chops over the first Stones era (prior to HSMR), to the enormous development of his playing style during era two (Her Satanic Majesties Request to Some Girls) to era three. An explosive amount of style and playing ability can be found there. Thousands of concerts later, you have a master in front of you. It might be a bit slower and a missed note now and a again but the root and feeling is still there stronger than pride.

Go back to some of that big band stuff and listen to some of the other guitarists from the 50's. I think you will fine traces of horn lines (especially if they had horns in the band or the guitarist played horns too). It's a really interesting thing to trip off when you do the research.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-27 00:47 by CBII.

>> Thousands of concerts later, you have a master in front of you. <<

yeah we sure do!

thank you for those insights, CBII. i can definitely grasp how the horn and piano lines
naturally got adopted by the guitars as the music evolved & got electrified -
i'd just never thought about it that way before, so thank you and Spud for pointing it out.
it's so cool to be given a new way to listen to the music.

CB is dead right.
If you want references for much of Keith's playing in recent times, just listen to a lot of old 40s and 50s RnB, Chicago Blues, Rockabilly, Texas Swing etc. Refer to this and not to the diluted slick derivatives we've grown used to in mainstream rock over the last 40-odd years.
Keith's playing has the same authentic feel of this stuff and I'm pretty sure that he's very often deliberately gone to horn and piano riffs for inspiration and reference.
We'd all admit that his playing is often overly loose and ragged...but many of the perceived screw ups and examples of less appreciated playing come from his constant efforts to experiment and put a slightly different twist on old recipes. Sometimes it comes off brilliantly and other times it doesn't work...but that's Keith.
Now sometimes his playing is just plain sloppy...and it's always when he's mugging for the front row, "progressing" in Elizabethan style along the run ways or posing !
So maybe it's his own fault that everything he does is put down to him being some kind of wasted invalid ;^)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-27 10:14 by Spud.

>> many of the perceived screw ups and examples of less appreciated playing come from
his constant efforts to experiment and put a slightly different twist on old recipes. <<

thank you for getting that said, Spud - that's wanted saying for a long time