I’m curious for everyone’s thoughts on the explosion of the Stones creative output and distinctive sound during the period of the “Big Four” albums – Beggars Banquet, Let it Bleed, Sticky Fingers and Exile on Main Street. If this topic has been covered previously, I apologize.

The premise to this question is fairly simple. It seems to me that prior to the recording of these albums the Stones certainly had some distinctive sounds and hits, but much of the material was either commercially driven, covers which they lent their own style to, or somewhat routine pop fodder for the period. When I think of songs that fit into this category I think of Get Off My Cloud, Time Is On My Side, As Tears Go By, The Last Time. I’ll leave the covers out as we’re all familiar with them.

The group of songs that show their potential leading into the “big four” are Play With Fire, Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown, Paint It Black, Have You Seen Your Mother Baby Standing in the Shadows, and Let’s Spend the Night Together. I do believe a few of the songs in this latter grouping could well be listed in the preceding paragraph as well – a subjective point for debate. That said, none of these songs with the exception of Satisfaction, really matches the sound and style of what was to come in the creation of the “big four” albums.

The two singles prior to the “Big Four” that show, to me, the truest glimpse of the Stones potential creativity and distinction are Jumping Jack Flash and Honky Tonk Woman – these two are in a separate group from all that came before. Despite these two songs not being on any album other than compilations – I’m more than tempted to lump them into the songs included in the “big four” as their style and tone could easily be included on either Beggars Banquet or Let It Bleed.

The jump in creative output and distinctive sound from the band seems to have occurred around the time of the recording of Their Satanic Majesties Request which I personally find interesting as it’s one of my least favorite Stones albums. Don’t mean to start any arguments here – I’ve always just thought of this album as a reflexive response to the Beatles Sgt. Peppers album.

Following the release of Satanic Majesties Request we are ushered into a period of album based music that for many fans is the “golden era” of the Stones. How was this jump made? What were the forces that led to it? To me, this “golden era” is unique in several ways and I’m simply curious about the origins of this period. When I look through the songlists of these four albums I’m blown away with the variety of styles, sounds, and mood the band manages to capture. That said, there is a certain cohesiveness to the sound of the music on these albums as well.

On Beggars Banquet the elements that stand out are the band’s introduction of elements of American country music, the full and unabashed embracing of their “nasty” side on a song such as Stray Cat Blues, and their blending of their distinctive sound in this period while still managing to produce commercially viable songs such as Sympathy for the Devil and Street Fighting Man. I’ll not discuss every song on the album as they’re all favorites but the range of styles here is extraordinary and somewhat out character for all that had come before this album.

On Let it Bleed we see the influence of even more American country music on much of the album. The signature songs of Midnight Rambler, You Can’t Always Get What You Want and Gimme Shelter are just stellar. These songs highlight, respectively, the incredible rhythms the band was capable of, the more contemplative numbers the band could put together, and the raw and dark sounds the band was capable of achieving. Live With Me is, I think, probably the downright dirtiest and grittiest song the band has ever produced and is one of my longtime favorites.

With Sticky Fingers the band opens with Brown Sugar – a combination of raw though finely produced guitar work with some of the best and most controversial lyrics to this point, and a rhythm and primal riff that just won’t let anybody sit still. We get the riff laden first half and then trippy second half treat of Can’t You Hear Me Knocking. We get the driving sounds of Bitch, we get the drugged out and lovely Sister Morphine and we get a bit more American country influence. Yes, Mick Taylor’s influence is readily apparent on this album and his contribution cannot be discounted, but as mentioned previously – much of this progression in sound was already in place before he joined. I am not trying to discount his undeniable influence – it’s substantial without question. But, I do believe the shift in style and sound happened before he joined the band although he certainly facilitated its further development.

With Exile On Main Street the variety, creativity and range of the band is on full display. There are far too many great songs to highlight properly. Much I suppose could be attributed to the location and circumstances of the album being recorded – but that would not explain the three albums that preceded its release. With this album, we are treated to the full maturation of the band and their accumulated skills are on full display.

So, going back to the original question – what changed in late 1967/early 1968? What was the impetus for the band’s change in direction and sound? Societal changes certainly had some impact. Changes in the band’s recording contracts and authority over recording sessions certainly had impact. Influences from other bands and individuals such as Gram Parsons, Billy Preston, Nicky Hopkins? Internally though – what clicked with the band? There must be multiple explanations and no single overriding factor – but what do each of you believe to be the factors for the abrupt shift in sound and style during this period?

I’ll close with the opinion that there is no right or wrong answer here – please, let’s not turn this into a bashfest. All opinions are welcome and legitimate – afterall, music is a subjective matter to all.

Thank you

"What was the impetus for the band’s change in direction and sound?"

Jimmy Miller

The bands basic sound had already changed circa 1966/67.

Beggars Banquet when taken in context and especially when one listens to the Satanic Sessions box sets and the Surrey Rehearsals CD shows the only obvious changes that took place during late 1967/early 1968 was the introduction of Keith using open E/D, Jimmy Miller and less overdubbing of Mellotron, Harpsichord etc. Everything else was already in place and was being utilized before 1968.

Beggars Banquet is still quite psychedelic, very 60's, and very different in sound and feel to Stick Fingers etc.

Rather than being some mythical manifestation of the definitive stones sound, it's just another phase in their career and ever changing sound.

The rich tapestry of The Rolling Stones.






Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-21 20:22 by His Majesty.

The Big Four? I prefer to call them The Grand Slam.

It's funny. Through the years so many people have told me I put the Stones back where they belonged.
But I had nothing to do with the fact - they'd already written Jumpin' Jack Flash.
They were already quite willing to go back there. I'm sure the chemistry worked.
Being a drummer, I was very rhythm-minded.
- Jimmy Miller, 1979 (quoted on [www.timeisonourside.com] )

Keith's pointed out a number of factors in 1966/67:
having some time off the road to get back into playing, which led to
getting into various open tunings and other forms of experimenting with sound;
plus a good dose of being very angry over being busted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-21 20:38 by with sssoul.

Thanks all, and I can't believe I left out Under My Thumb - one of the earliest indicators of the band's potential for growth.

"somewhat routine pop fodder for the period. When I think of songs that fit into this category I think of Get Off My Cloud, Time Is On My Side, As Tears Go By, The Last Time".

Horse sh*t! Every body is entitled to thier opinion but there is no way that brilliant cutting edge masterpieces such as GOMC, TIOMS, ATGB and my all time favorite Stones song The Last Time are routine pop fodder. Stop beating around the bush.... let me guess... you think Mick Taylor is beyond wonderful and you wish to slag Brian Jones for his (brillant) contributions to the Stones true golden era. Old tired war horse of a topic....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-21 21:40 by its good to be anywhere.

[quote="His Majesty]

Rather than being some mythical manifestation of the definitive stones sound, it's just another phase in their career and ever changing sound.

The rich tapestry of The Rolling Stones.


[/quote]
Really well said. Not to demystify the greatness of that era, but in a way it better have happened. Everything had been lined up towards that sunny stretch in their road. Years on the road, paying their dues, meeting the idols and teachers and soaking up the lessons; applying them. Moving up to better producer, mastering new tunings, finding Nicky Hopkins.
And it's not that the late 70's albums are particularly weak; they just reached so high through 68-72 that it became impossible to maintain, and most anything would suffer by comparison.

The Last Time, Satisfaction etc are career defining moments, without them the band would have been much the same as many of the other bands treading the boards at the time and probably would have met similar fate.

Far away from being routine pop fodder! Easily as good as anything on the celebrated 68 - 72 albums.

I also suggest Jimmy Miller was 'the change'. I was scanning the well-written first post for his name as an obvious answer. Well, it's my obvious answer.

Funny though, when you put this timeline at roughly 1968-1972, another English bandshone during this time, and incredibly their singer released tandem solo albums in between group albums (using the same guitar and keyboard player from that band mind you, but still). The same rustic, bluesy influence washed over bother English bands quite well I'd say, during the same time.

[thepowergoats.com]

Apols, didn't mean to disparage or trivialize any particular phase of the band's career - routine pop fodder is probably an ill chosen description.

Personally, however, I do find the music included in the four albums mentioned as vastly different from nearly everything else that came before with the exceptions of Satisfaction, JJF, and Honky Tonk Woman.

I have no dog in this particular hunt and truly enjoy the music produced by all the different stages of the band's development.

What is is here suggested and beautifully introduced and outlined is one of the fundamental issues in the Stones history: what made it possible that the artistic failure and directless mess of MAJESTIES turned out to be a cohesive masterpiece BEGGARS BANQUET, lead by the superb single "Jumpin'Jack Flash". I even remember Philip Norman writing in his Stones bography that if ever something magical happened to them or some "higher force" was leading them, that happened then.

I don't have energy to try to answer that issue now but I just want to point out that the latest tendency has been trying to play down the supposed radical change, and seeing it more just another change in their way of coping with the trends and changes of the musial climate - this time it just clicked better.

But there is a longer, more complicated story to be told there... a great thead. I'll be back...

- Doxa

Quote
Doxa
the latest tendency has been trying to play down the supposed radical change, and seeing it more just another change in their way of coping with the trends and changes of the musial climate - this time it just clicked better.

- Doxa

More info and music has been made available showing that the musical change from 1967 to 1968 wasn't as radical a turn around as the 2 officially released albums suggest. There is a clear thread linking 1967 to 1968 which is clearly heard on The Satanic Sessions box set - Surrey Rehearsals - Pay Your Dues, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Child of The Moon, Jigsaw Puzzle etc.

The thing that sets Beggars apart from the albums that followed it, is that there is a distinct lack of normal rock guitar playing(which is why I love it!), the electric parts have a psych edge to them, electric lead licks still in TSMR vain for most part.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-21 23:43 by His Majesty.

everything came together-the people around them,the producer,the drugs,mick and keith writing.even the people designing the album covers were f'n perfect.the planets aligned my friend.you'll never see anything close to it again.i've actually seen people on the internet compare voodoo lounge to one of the big four,can you imagine that? i dont think anyone else has ever put together 4 classics in a row like that.i'm not a beatles fan but their people could say -magical mystery tour,sgt pepper,white album and abbey road but i think the stones big four have the better arsenal of songs.the beatles got sappy in spots.yeah,the stones are the best rock and roll band ever.no doubt because of the big 4.oh,yeah-and the live shows.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
Doxa
the latest tendency has been trying to play down the supposed radical change, and seeing it more just another change in their way of coping with the trends and changes of the musial climate - this time it just clicked better.

- Doxa

More info and music has been made available showing that the musical change from 1967 to 1968 wasn't as radical a turn around as the 2 officially released albums suggest. There is a clear thread linking 1967 to 1968 which is clearly heard on The Satanic Sessions box set - Surrey Rehearsals - Pay Your Dues, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Child of The Moon, Jigsaw Puzzle etc.

The thing that sets Beggars apart from the albums that followed it, is that there is a distinct lack of normal rock guitar playing(which is why I love it!), the electric parts have a psych edge to them, electric lead licks still in TSMR vain for most part.

Many thanks for this. Just had a quick listen to some of the material on the Surrey Rehearsals which I'd never heard before. It's quite clear that the vein of music to come is present in some of these recordings. Haven't been able to track down any links yet to music from the Satanic Sessions but am still trying!

We all have to thank Jimmy Miller for his contribution. He changed and definitely defined the Rolling Stones sound.

I've read somewhere - in a Mojo or Face circa November 2003? - that the leaked circulating work of Dylan in Big Pink - later to become The Basement Tapes - was hugely influential on various acts - and they said the influences are apparent in Beggars - stuff like Jigsaw, Salt of the Earth - and that it also influenced the Beatles - White album - can't remeber the other acts. Very plausible read. I'll see if i can dig it out.

But yes, the change had started with Satanics - the Big Break is between Buttons and Satanics - then just add Miller, loose the psycho-ethereal stuff, add good song-writing (and Dylan influence?) ....... light the blue touch paper ..... and stand well back.

........ or jump on board for a wild ride until 1973 ......

when the Heroin finally derailed one of the key creative components.

So on a similar theme - how important was Heroin in all this? If Keith hadn't got into junk, would that period have been so great?

If he hadn't got into junk would that period have extended.

Could he have played so freely, wildly instinctively in 72-73 for example without the habit.

Yeah, ok, subject for another thread - and i guess most of Bleed and half of Fingers was done before it really took a hold of him.

Quote
OpenGspot

Many thanks for this. Just had a quick listen to some of the material on the Surrey Rehearsals which I'd never heard before. It's quite clear that the vein of music to come is present in some of these recordings.

Indeed, but once you track them down, the bootlegs from the 1967 European tour and the majority of stuff on the Satanic Sessions box sets are similar to what is heard on the Surrey Rehearsals.

Raw, heavier and rocking, but still with a 60's vibe about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-22 02:26 by His Majesty.

Quote
lem motlow
i dont think anyone else has ever put together 4 classics in a row like that.i'm not a beatles fan but their people could say -magical mystery tour,sgt pepper,white album and abbey road but i think the stones big four have the better arsenal of songs.the beatles got sappy in spots.

In the UK albums only would mean Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt Peppers, The Beatles, Abbey Road...

This is a stones forum so I don't expect much support for this, but as good as the stones albums are, I don't think they beat that run of albums by The Beatles.

The sheer volume of high standard song writing, breadth of styles and collective influence those Beatles albums contain is really quite amazing!

I agree with the above posts that point out Jimmy Miller's influence. It can't be over estimated, the Stones finally had a professional producer that knew how to capture their raw energy! Andrew just could not hack it in the sound booth, and it is amazing The Stones got as far as they did with him.

The great engineers deserve credit too!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-22 02:59 by His Majesty.

Great post. I Love posts like this that are articulate and well written and open up great discussion.

I wish there were more like it!

Thank you OpenG. Good Post

"Well my heavy throbbers itchin' just to lay a solid rhythm down"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-22 05:35 by Marhsall.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
lem motlow
i dont think anyone else has ever put together 4 classics in a row like that.i'm not a beatles fan but their people could say -magical mystery tour,sgt pepper,white album and abbey road but i think the stones big four have the better arsenal of songs.the beatles got sappy in spots.

In the UK albums only would mean Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt Peppers, The Beatles, Abbey Road...

This is a stones forum so I don't expect much support for this, but as good as the stones albums are, I don't think they beat that run of albums by The Beatles.

The sheer volume of high standard song writing, breadth of styles and collective influence those Beatles albums contain is really quite amazing!

I think Get Ya Ya's Out should be included here, and the songwriting, the energy, and the intensity has the Stones ahead for me. Also, lets not forget George Martin out.

Jimmy Miller was a key person to guide them. Who knows if the Stones on their own would have come upon new original ways of recording and producing their songs? I guess, one can say that it was a great match - one side spurring on the other. JM's recoring techniques could not have found a better outlet IMO. The percussion, the grand piano; when you get the Glimmer Twins, Nicky and Charlie to work them with it is perfect.
I think what makes the 68-72 era special too, is that they learned the art of mastering, presenting a whole album. Yes, atisfaction", "Last Time" are career defining hits, but they are singles. With Aftermath, Buttons and Satanic they were going for the album, as a concept. With Banquet they got it right.

Thank you for this fun, nourishing post.

It was so rich and interesting. I've wondered same about what seems to be a fairly dramatic transition, but haven't been able to articulate it as well as you.

Like you, I haven't heard the extra Satanic Majesties' stuff. Perhaps that provides the "Missing Link."

Great perspective from others too...I'm not sure I've ever listened to Beggar's Banquet and Sticky Fingers back to back, but I think that'd be interesting, to hear how similiar they are/aren't. I feel like it might underscore just how far apart the two albums actually are. Maybe not as far apart as Satanic Majesties seems to Let It Bleed, but perhaps.

Jimmy Miller as producer seems to make a lot of sense. Changing guitar chords and styles. Also, ALO's departure, LSD's coming and going, the diminishing role of Brian and his sound and contributions, and Keith and Mick's increasing skills as songwriters and musicians.

I found this excerpt---concerning that 1967-68 time period, from a Mick interview---worthwhile and somewhat relevant. Hope you do too:

Cover Story: Jagger Remembers by Jann Wenner
Rolling Stone
Dec 15 1995

You then did "Their Satanic Majesties Request." What was going on here?

I probably started to take too many drugs.

What do you think about "Satanic Majesties" now?

Well, it's not very good. It had interesting things on it, but I don't think any of the songs are very good. It's a bit like Between the Buttons. It's a sound experience, really, rather than a song experience. There's two good songs on it: "She's a Rainbow," which we didn't do on the last tour, although we almost did, and "2000 Light Years From Home," which we did do. The rest of them are nonsense.

I listened to it recently, and it sounds like Spinal Tap.

Really, I know.

Was it just you trying to be the Beatles?

I think we were just taking too much acid. We were just getting carried away, just thinking anything you did was fun and everyone should listen to it.

The whole thing, we were on acid. We were on acid doing the cover picture. I always remember doing that. It was like being at school, you know, sticking on the bits of colored paper and things. It was really silly. But we enjoyed it. [Laughs] Also, we did it to piss Andrew off, because he was such a pain in the neck. Because he didn't understand it. The more we wanted to unload him, we decided to go on this path to alienate him.

Just to force him out?

Yeah. Without actually doing it legally, we forced him out. I mean, he wanted out anyway. We were so out of our minds.

After it came out and it was kind of a chunk record, how did you consider it?

A phase. A passing fancy.

You followed up with "Jumpin' Jack Flash."

We did that one as a single, out of all the acid of Satanic Majesties.

What's that song about? "Born in a crossfire hurricane . . ."

It's about having a hard time and getting out. Just a metaphor for getting out of all the acid things.

And it did bring you back. You launch this golden era: "Beggars Banquet," "Let It Bleed," "Sticky Fingers," "Exile on Main Street."

Let's start with "Beggars Banquet," a record that you could not have predicted from your earlier work. It had extraordinary power and sophistication, with songs like "Street Fighting Man," "Salt of the Earth," "Stray Cat Blues" and "Jig-Saw Puzzle." What was going on in your life at this time? What were you listening to and reading?

God, what was I doing? Who was I living with? It was all recorded in London, and I was living in this rented house in Chester Square. I was living with Marianne Faithfull. Was I still? Yeah. And I was just writing a lot, reading a lot. I was educating myself. I was reading a lot of poetry, I was reading a lot of philosophy. I was out and about. I was very social, always hanging out with [art-gallery owner] Robert Fraser's group of people.

And I wasn't taking so many drugs that it was messing up my creative processes. It was a very good period, 1968 -- there was a good feeling in the air. It was a very creative period for everyone. There was a lot going on in the theater. Marianne was kind of involved with it, so I would go to the theater upstairs, hang out with the young directors of the time and the young filmmakers.
. . . . .

swiss



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-22 07:44 by swiss.

One of Jagger's most candid interviews, with out the "Mick" Jagger persona. Thanks Swiss!

I've always viewed JJF and Beggars as a reaction to the psychedelic era and a realization that it wasn't what the Stones did best. LIB, SF and Exile are albums in a similar vein - but they are great because they were recorded at a time when the best band in rock history was at its absolute peak.

Just an evolution in their sound. Strip away harpsichords, etc from Satanic Majesties and there is not much difference between it and a lot of Beggars Banquet for example.
The White Album had a lot of acoustic numbers. Don't know if that prompted the stripped down sound of Beggars Banquet.
I think Jimmy Miller helped push them in the right direction as did Mick Taylor who brought his own thing to the sound.
BTW, should be called the Big 5 anyway with GYYYO as number one.

Of note here regarding B.B. & L.I.B. These song were written around the same time.

I.e. all the songs on B.B. where written at the same time as the L.I.B. song's

I read it in a Jagger interview somewhere, and if memory serves right, there is where their idea for a double ablum came about.

So, moving from B.B. to L.I.B isn't that much of a change in style.

"Well my heavy throbbers itchin' just to lay a solid rhythm down"

Quote
Marhsall
Of note here regarding B.B. & L.I.B. These song were written around the same time.

I.e. all the songs on B.B. where written at the same time as the L.I.B. song's

I read it in a Jagger interview somewhere, and if memory serves right, there is where their idea for a double ablum came about.

So, moving from B.B. to L.I.B isn't that much of a change in style.

Atleast 5 or 6 songs on LIB weren't written till after Beggars Banquet was complete, I think, it's more a case that they essentially followed one another without much time inbetween the sessions(a gap between July - November 1968) which is more true for LIB - Sticky Fingers.