On the Forty Licks collection, I can hear MT on the left at the end of the first verse, but when the lead begins, it's on the left, and there's another guitar underneath (center mixed). Keith DOES play the lead, correct, and it's the overdub. So, three guitars, with Keith providing two of them?

No -- it's Mick Taylor that plays the main lead on the single. Keith just adapted for himself in live performances. I'm sorry if this was common knowledge.

Interesting -- by rights, it oughta be Ronnie that plays the lead, not Keith. On the original single, it's Keith that propels the rhythm during the guitar lead, but somehow the roles got reversed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-18 22:37 by bassplayer617.

things get pretty slippery in the middle section. the horns bury the lead guitar to the extent that edits between guitar takes could be there but inaudible. so it could be either or both of them, imo.

Listen very closely -- the tone matches Taylor -- HE invented that distinctive solo, but it's different. On Forty Licks, they cleaned up the sound -- Honky Tonk Women sounds great and clear -- the parts are distinct.

I always wondered about this, as it's Mick Taylor's recorded debut as a Stone and the single version was issued in mono, right?

The stereo version on Forty Licks is fantastic -- to my mind, this is one of the best recordings the band ever did. Never mind that it's now a "warhorse".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-18 22:45 by bassplayer617.

I think the solo was keith but the lead fills between the verse and chorus were mick.

Keith didn't just start playing this lead break recently - he played it at the songs first live public airing at Hyde Park too. That's a big clue about who plays what because it was obviously very close to the recording date.

Also, I think that the solo sounds like keith's playing.

The tone doesn't mean anything. They were obviously able to swap instruments and amps in the studio - particularly this early in MT's stones career.

But cc is right that it is difficult to tell due to the loud horns.

Whatever the case, the original single version of HTW is one of the greatest moments ever recorded and sounds great even to this day. I just love it when those tom drums burst in after the cowbell.

So, the version on Forty Licks is actually a different mix? I don't hear any leads from Keith at all. Interesting.

I think I have 40 Licks but recently have listened to "HTW" on my CDR of the Japanese London Through the Past Darkly... I'll check out the 40 Licks version.

to me the solo does sound more like keith in its simplicity, but this would be a transitional performance from taylor, so it's hard to say. taylor's tone could certainly be up for grabs on his debut. this solo is similar to the middle section of "Tumblin' Dice," which is also hard to pick out and also (mainly?) keith, I believe.

I think I figured it out. Through studio trickery, MT and KR switched sides for the lead (Keith left, MT right). Even that at stage, the guys wanted to keep us wondering. That wizardry exists to this day, even in live releases, but a few folks resent it. Face it, people, it's existed for over 30 years. The current technology now allows us to catch the tricks.

Charlie play's the Drum and the cowbell or was it the woodblock, who cares ? even it was Ringo

__________________________

Ian Stewart once complained he didn't like the single because it was "bloody Keith overdubbing ten guitars." While likely an exaggeration, his remark probably has some truth as the guitars come in and out in various layers throughout and only become indistinguishable when the brass joins in. I'm sure Mick Taylor is in there as well and quite possibly Brian and/or Ry Cooder somewhere. The point is with multiple guitar tracks, its difficult to distinguish who played what when. I believe Jimmy Miller played the cowbell, though. Great single nonetheless.

jimmy miller plays the cowbell.

as for the guitars, I'd have to give it another listen, but I wouldn't put too much emphasis on which side they're on. remember that most people would be hearing it in mono, on a cheap radio.

Keith plays the solo. Taylor plays the country-fied fills. I thought this was common knowledge.....


That's a Keith solo all the way.

MT on the solo, no way, forget it. I'm with Tumblin_Dice_07 all the way here. Distinctive period sound from Keith to my ears. This was one of their greatest singles of all time. The mono mix is my favorite, but I will have to do a comparison with the Forty Licks take.

I've listened to the Forty Licks version repeatedly, and Keith's lead from the mono version is gone, If it ever existed. The stereo version here gives the lead to MT in the left channel. HE played that lead. It's plain as day. Just listen to it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-19 03:24 by bassplayer617.

Isn't it in mono on the SACD version of SINGLES COLLECTION - THE LONDON YEARS?

No Glam stereo on all 3 SACD releases....



ROCKMAN

SINGLES COLLECTION was supposed to include original single mixes but maybe they missed on this particular one (?). Is the original single in mono?

Yep original 7" mono and 1989 release of Singles Collection London Years...



ROCKMAN

So it's in mono on the original SINGLES COLLECTION but in stereo on the SACD reissue? Weird. One more reason I'm glad I held onto the original.

Just found this comment:

"All potential stereo tracks in MONO except songs 4 & 6-13 on CD 3. I thought maybe they were going for some 1960's 45 rpm mono AM radio sound on the whole compilation until you get to CD 3."

[www.rollingstonesnet.com]

bassplayer617 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've listened to the Forty Licks version
> repeatedly, and Keith's lead from the mono version
> is gone, If it ever existed. The stereo version
> here gives the lead to MT in the left channel. HE
> played that lead. It's plain as day. Just listen
> to it.



No way Mick Taylor played the solo on "Honky Tonk Women". That's Keith.

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Rhythm electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead electric guitars: Keith Richards (incl. solo) & Mick Taylor
Lead vocals: Mick Jagger
Background vocals: Keith Richards, Reparata & The Delrons & Doris Troy
Piano: Ian Stewart
Cowbell: Jimmy Miller
Brass: (unknown musicians)

[www.timeisonourside.com]

here's what a guy named John Moores stated in alt Rock-n-roll stones:

HONKY TONK WOMEN [VERSION ONE] (Jagger, Richard)*
Rec: Mar. 10 - 11, 16**?), May 12, 14, 25, 28, 1969.
Rel: Not released.
M. Jagger: Lead Vocals.
K. Richard: Lead and Rhythm Guitars, Backing Vocals.
B. Jones: Guitar.
B. Wyman: Bass.
C. Watts: Drums.
Nicky Hopkins: Piano.
S. Gregory: Sax***.
G. Beadle: Sax***.
Madeline Bell (and others): Backing Vocals.****
*Ry Cooder claims the Stones stole this from him. Brian Jones' father
claims that Brian arranged it.
**At this session the Stones recorded something called 'Pennies From
Heaven', which became something else (we don't know what), and a song
called THE JIMMY MILLER SHOW. What that is is unknown, as it's never
been booted.
***Recorded on 25 May.
****Recorded on 28 May.

Scrapped in favour of:

HONKY TONK WOMEN (Jagger, Richard)
Rec: June 1 - 7, 1969.
Rel: July 3, 1969 (UK / US 45)
M. Jagger: Lead Vocals.
K. Richard: Lead and Rhythm Guitars, Backing Vocals.
B. Wyman: Bass.
C. Watts: Drums.
I. Stewart: Piano.(?)
Nicky Hopkins: Piano (?)
Mick Taylor: Lead Guitar.*
Bobby Keys: Saxophones.(?)
S. Gregory: Sax (?).
G. Beadle: Sax (?).
Jimmy Miller: Cowbell.
Reparta and the Delrons (Mary Aiese, Lorainne Mazzola and Nanette
Licars): Backing Vocals.(?)
Nanette Newman: Backing Vocals (?).
*Brian Jones' guitar tracks were presumably wiped and replaced with
Taylor's. Taylor apparently plays the fills in between verses.

surely its Keith on the solo? cc - even though it was transitional for Taylor, he had been playing mature and fiery blues leads for a few years with Mayall (jaw-dropping for his age) so not to insult Keith, but the double stops etc etc are very very similar to his style...

plus isnt "Jivin' Sister Fanny" from the same era? that should show you how different Taylor plays solos

Bugger the guitars ! Best drum sound ever recorded !

Great song, but they should have kept it in that nice groovy tempo it has in the beginning. Already after the first chorus the tempo are a lot faster and then it continues to speed up. This was not unusual in the days before click track was available, but on this one Charlie really was in a hurry.

Everybody with even the slightest knowledge of music can hear that Brian Jones is not playing on HTW.

bassplayer617 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've listened to the Forty Licks version
> repeatedly, and Keith's lead from the mono version
> is gone, If it ever existed. The stereo version
> here gives the lead to MT in the left channel. HE
> played that lead. It's plain as day. Just listen
> to it.


You still obviously don't get it. Whether it was the left or right channel doesn't matte - they swapped channels on the mix. Keith's lead would have been an overdub so there is no reason to assume that when mixing it it would be kept to the same side of the mix as the rest of Keith's (rythm) playing. With respect to tone, Taylor was probably using much of Keith's gear at this point - his very first outing with the stones - and they were no doubt swapping around and experimenting with sounds.

But the basic fact remains the actual style of the playing. It is Keith through and through. I find it hard to believe that Taylor could ever play like that - he is too polished in a way. The playing is very jagged and is typical keith lead. Also, listen to keith play that solo at Hyde Park and on the later US tour - you can hear the obvious similarities in the style of playing.

For more evidence, when you see them mime to the original song, Keith plays the lead. I know that anyone could mime a lead to any song but surely if it was MT that played the lead the obvious thing would be that MT mimes it on TV.

So I really do not believe that the lead solo was played by Taylor. It was definately Keith, no doubt.

Christian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> here's what a guy named John Moores stated in alt
> Rock-n-roll stones:
>

I remember when this fellow made these posts. he really knows his stuff and they are a good resource. I had a few discussions with him at the time. I wonder if he appears on any bulletin boards.

He was around till Dandelion Powderman offended him.

What did I do?