As we all know, there was some bad blood between Ry Cooder and Keith, Cooder refusing to speak about his time with the Stones, accusations that they somehow stole his sound, etc. Does anyone have the full story on this? Also, is Jamming With Edward on CD?

>> Also, is Jamming With Edward on CD? <<

here you go: [www.amazon.co.uk]

My Dermatologist, who has known Ry for years, long before he was famous, and is still friends with him says that Ry claims he recorded many guitar parts he never got credit for, but what really pissed Ry off was when he wrote Honky Tonk Women and the Stones stole it out from under him.

I have no idea if any of this is true.

does your dermatologist know which aspects of HTW Cooder claims he wrote?
there was a thread around here in the last year or so about some article stating he'd come up with the "central riff"
but no one could decide whether that meant the opening riff ("central" as in "highly characteristic" )
or some other part (misusing "riff" to mean "lick" or "line" )

ah here it is: [www.iorr.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-02 07:52 by with sssoul.

As a songwriter, I can say that coming up with riffs in songs is not the same as "writing" a song - which is words, melody and chord progressions. Bill Wyman, who "wrote" JJF, might disagree though.

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with sssoul
does your dermatologist know which aspects of HTW Cooder claims he wrote?
there was a thread around here in the last year or so where he was quoted as saying he had come up with the "central riff"
but no one could decide whether that meant the opening riff ("central" as in "highly characteristic" )
or the definitive lick in the solo ("central" as in "in the middle" and using "riff" to mean "lick" or "line" )

The next time I see him (probably in January), I will ask if he knows more details. Meanwhile, another story he told me was, back in the 60's when Ry was in the studio with my dermatologist (who plays guitar) and Taj Mahal, Taj asked Ry to teach him how to play guitar, he refused, so my Dr. started giving him lessons.

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BluzDude
My Dermatologist, who has known Ry for years...

Ry is probably trying to thicken his skin.

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schillid

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BluzDude
My Dermatologist, who has known Ry for years...

Ry is probably trying to thicken his skin.

Nice!

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BluzDude
My Dermatologist, who has known Ry for years, long before he was famous, and is still friends with him says that Ry claims he recorded many guitar parts he never got credit for, but what really pissed Ry off was when he wrote Honky Tonk Women and the Stones stole it out from under him.

I have no idea if any of this is true.

He was only with them for a month or so, but assuming what Ry says is true, I think it's likely that his guitar parts were either wiped, mixed out, and/or re-recorded by Keith.

If you listen to Ry's 1967 to 1969 body of work, including that with the Stones, it is clear Cooder had his open G style developed quite a bit. Various riffs that have become trademark Keith Richards riffs where part of Cooder's style for sure. But as always, it's not the riff that counts, it's the song you write with it. And there Keith Richards is king.

Mathijs

Exactly, Mathijs...The point many people miss when they accuse Keith of "ripping off" Cooder is that Ry could never have written those songs. Also, Ry - as well as keith - owe a great debt to the blues masters they studied, so the both borrowed heavily to create their own styles...If great songs were a function of riffs or technically good guitar playing there would be a hundred bands as good as the Stones. But of course, there aren't.

Ry Cooder did not invent open G tuning, and must surely know his own stuff came from those before him.

Ry is a tasty and intriguing guitarist, but his 'songwriting' sucks.
His songs aren't catchy and they stink of a frustrated guitar player who can't admit he doesn't sing or write lyrics well. Southern Comfort was one of his highlights for me, and he doesn't try and make it pop.

The only thing he could possible have given to Keith was a little direction.

It seems to me that both Ry and The Stones "stole" from the originator,Hank Williams. His song Honky tonk blues has a similar chord progression in G, the title is almost the same and the intro (minus the cowbell) ressembles Hank's lick.
Rock and Roll,
Mops

if you listen to "jamming with edward" its basically ry getting his chance to play guitar in the stones.i haven't heard it in years but if i remember correctly its mick,charlie,bill,nicky and ry on guitar.the whole thing is pretty much paint by the numbers blues,nothing special at all.someone needs to tell ry-just playing in open g does not equal writing honky tonk women.... and you aint keith richards.

I find it odd I can't find any comments by Keith on the subject.

Ry's Chavez Ravine is a great album, as was his Paris texas movie soundtrack. What was really indulgent was to play slide guitar all over this traditional Cuban music in the Buena Vista Social Club movie, and to have the poor judgment to put his untalented son in the band with all these legendary Cuban musicians as "percussionist".

I’ve read an interview somewhere (Rolling Stone?) where Keef talks about Ry’s complaint saying something to the affect of “that Cat was not brought over to play on any record” because Ry was saying every time he would start to play Keith would disappear & start the tapes rolling recording everything Ry played but regarding open G tuning before Ry or Gram were hanging around I thought that I read it was the Don Everly of the Everly Brothers were Keith first became aware of that tuning,

KR, Rolling Stone 1971

Strange Taj would ask Ry to teach him guitar and Ry would say no. The first time either of them led a band, they led the Rising Sons together. One record...and it's great. Tulsa County just won't quit.

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sdstonesguy
Strange Taj would ask Ry to teach him guitar and Ry would say no.

...that's what I said to the Dr. His response was "I agree, but then if you really knew Ry, you would understand."

According to the Dr. Ry is not easy to get along with and I think he is surprised he has managed to stay friends for so long, probably because he gave up the guitar for med school in the early 60's.

Did Keith steal from Ry? Wayne Perkins? We'll never know, but Keith was a junkie, and junkies don't have the best reputations for being honest.

In defense of Keith...ALL musicians "borrow" from here and there.

for crying in the dust: the timeline doesn't support "conclusions" like that, even if the generalizations held water.

and if my earlier posts sounded like i buy Ry's version of things, that's not at all what i meant.
i'm just (mildly) curious what bits of HTW he actually thinks he wrote. (Keith was already playing that intro in 1967.)

Ry has held a grudge all these years. From what I know, he is not the easiest guy to deal with. Maybe he wasn't treated well - after all the Stones have been known to play mind games with people - but that doesn't mean he was "ripped off" musically. Keith's failure to turn up many times when Ry was at the session is what I was hoping to find out about. Perhaps they didn't hit it off personally, or Keith felt threatened? Who knows?

I suppose if Ry recorded the guitar parts for Let It Bleed and Keith did a sponge job ie, copied them basically note for note (which is what I read somewhere) then wiped Ry's track, wouldn't Ry Cooder not be paid performer's royalties/fees for some of the tracks?

If that is the case, then I could see why he would feel aggrieved.

What is interesting to me is that the slide guitar playing is top notch and Keith never played slide to that calibre before or since.

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terraplane
I suppose if Ry recorded the guitar parts for Let It Bleed and Keith did a sponge job ie, copied them basically note for note (which is what I read somewhere) then wiped Ry's track, wouldn't Ry Cooder not be paid performer's royalties/fees for some of the tracks?

If that is the case, then I could see why he would feel aggrieved.

What is interesting to me is that the slide guitar playing is top notch and Keith never played slide to that calibre before or since.

It is clear that Ry did not record parts of Let it Bleed -he worked on Memo from Turner, Sister Morphine (and Something Better?), Love in Vain and Downtown Suzie. He did jam with the Stones, and most probably opened Keith's eyes on what to do with open tuning.

Concerning Keith's slide -he did play some great slide after '69 -Happy, Ventilater Blues, Little Red Rooster.

Mathijs

<and Keith never played slide to that calibre before or since.>

Let's not forget Keith's slide playing on Exile...

Ventilator Blues
Happy
Casino Boogie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-03 10:50 by DandelionPowderman.

—In 1969, you [Russ Titelman] found yourself playing guitar on 'Memo From Turner', for Jack Nitzsche's soundtrack to the Mick Jagger film, Performance.
—Actually, the core of the studio band on that record was Randy Newman, Ry Cooder and myself, and it was recorded in Los Angeles at Western Studios. But Jagger wasn't there during our sessions. The band Traffic had done a recording of 'Memo From Turner', but Jagger and Nitzsche didn't like it. So we replaced their track, playing along to Jagger's existing vocal and a click track. I played the Keith Richards-sounding "jing-a-jing" on rhythm guitar, and Ry Cooder did the slide guitar parts.

[www.littlefeat.net]

[www.spectropop.com]

The "central riff" of Honky Tonk Women is not a difficult one, to put it mildly. So IMO there are chances that Cooder stumbled across it during his lengthy jams with the Stones (minus Keith). Thinking of "Jamming With Edward", I'm quite sure he was playing some similar chords and rhythms in open tuning somewhere. It's give and take on these occasions. But that certainly doesn't mean he wrote that song. After all the country version of HTW doesn't even contain the riff.