>> The "central riff" of Honky Tonk Women is not a difficult one, to put it mildly. <<

... okay but: which bit are you calling "the central riff"? [passing popcorn]

I see with sssoul ;-) I'm referring to the intro riff which to me is the signature part of HTW (which of course is no guarantee of Cooder thinking likewise).

I think Cooder is talking about the G and E-string pickin' (between the G-chords), which Cooder most probably introdused for Keith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-03 17:27 by DandelionPowderman.

>> the intro riff which to me is the signature part of HTW <<

thanks - that's what i always thought was meant too, but as you see it's not a universal interpretation.
that's why i asked the person on the previous page to ask the dermatologist which bit Ry thinks he wrote.

meanwhile, i'm putting on Title 15 way loud - hope you can hear it, because Keith was playing that intro riff in 1967.

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with sssoul
>> the intro riff which to me is the signature part of HTW <<

thanks - that's what i always thought was meant too, but as you see it's not a universal interpretation.
that's why i asked the person on the previous page to ask the dermatologist which bit Ry thinks he wrote.

meanwhile, i'm putting on Title 15 way loud - hope you can hear it, because Keith was playing that intro riff in 1967.

I think most folks are meaning the licks which follow the intial Title 15 type rhythm and before the singing starts as being the signature part.

There are a number of licks throughout HTW which are similar to some of Ry's parts on Memo from Turner for example, I think the Ry Cooder influence is obvious, but it's still very Keith(ie more raw!) and what is heard isn't all that far from what Keith was already doing with open E/D and standard tuning really.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-03 18:18 by His Majesty.

>> I think most folks are meaning the licks which follow the intial Title 15 type rhythm
and before the singing starts as being the signature part. <<

okay thanks HM! i know some people use the term "riff" when they mean "lick", but ...
i still hope to hear from the dermatologist which bit Cooder thinks he wrote,
rather than which bit we think Cooder thinks he wrote [passing popcorn]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-03 18:21 by with sssoul.

The on-the-beat G strokes is of course the "riff" here, while the picking sure is the licks. Wouldn´t be surprising if Cooder claims he wrote both

To even it all out, I'm angry at Ry for not hardly ever playing live and only doing things I can't attend when he has. I did catch him as part of the house band for a gig at the Santa Monica Civic about 10 years ago or so. It was a benefit called The Friends of Fred Walecki...and it was great.

Finally got to see him when he played Belfast in June with Nick Lowe. I'd missed him a couple of previous times as I was on holiday. he was probably the one act I've wanted to see but hadnt done prior to that. Despite the slight disappointment at Flaco Jimenez missing the tour due to ill-health, it was well worth it. Absolutely fantastic.

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sdstonesguy
To even it all out, I'm angry at Ry for not hardly ever playing live and only doing things I can't attend when he has. I did catch him as part of the house band for a gig at the Santa Monica Civic about 10 years ago or so. It was a benefit called The Friends of Fred Walecki...and it was great.

... according to the Dr. Ry hates to travel, especially by plane (he and Bill should get together) but he does every now and then....usually right after the Dr writes him a Rx for Xanax (haha)

Well...I live just north of LA (Santa Barbara)...doesn't he live in LA?

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With Sssoul
meanwhile, i'm putting on Title 15 way loud - hope you can hear it, because Keith was playing that intro riff in 1967.

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His Majesty
think most folks are meaning the licks which follow the intial Title 15 type rhythm and before the singing starts as being the signature part.

I am very sorry to ask, but would any of you very educated and erudite people explain to
complete and utter nitwits like me what "title 15" is about? There is too much wind in Germany
to carry the sound of Sister Sssouls undoubtedly impressive stereo all the way to The Netherlands,
I am afraid to say.

smile: sorry marcovandereijk! there's a track from the Satanic sessions that's called "Title 15".
it includes a riff that sounds like the HTW intro wired on high-quality amphetamines

Aaaaahhh,

Now thank you very much for enlightening me on this subject. I've found the title 15 track
and had the extreme pleasure of listening to it on my own system, turned out very loud, of course.
Yes, I guess the way Keith is blasting out the central chord (is that G?) has a lot in common
with the opening riff of Honky Tonk Women. But there are more songs that this little jam
is reminding me about. How about "I can see it"?

The intro riff (plucked open D and G strings) doesn't sound like Cooder at all to me. I suspect he had more influence on giving the song a country feel.

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sdstonesguy
Well...I live just north of LA (Santa Barbara)...doesn't he live in LA?

yes he does, I was referring to him rarely getting out (touring) and playing.

I wish the Stones would invite Cooder to play with them again. He is a master. It would be good for Cooder's career to play with the Stones and thereby introduce himself to millions of Rolling Stones fan who don't know all he did for the Stones.

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Mathijs

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terraplane
I suppose if Ry recorded the guitar parts for Let It Bleed and Keith did a sponge job ie, copied them basically note for note (which is what I read somewhere) then wiped Ry's track, wouldn't Ry Cooder not be paid performer's royalties/fees for some of the tracks?

If that is the case, then I could see why he would feel aggrieved.

What is interesting to me is that the slide guitar playing is top notch and Keith never played slide to that calibre before or since.

It is clear that Ry did not record parts of Let it Bleed -he worked on Memo from Turner, Sister Morphine (and Something Better?), Love in Vain and Downtown Suzie. He did jam with the Stones, and most probably opened Keith's eyes on what to do with open tuning.

Concerning Keith's slide -he did play some great slide after '69 -Happy, Ventilater Blues, Little Red Rooster.

Mathijs

Cooder helped Keith adapt to open-G the "Keith things" he'd been doing in open-D and even standard (19th Nervous Breakdown, Route 66). And Keith has never been anything other than generous and honest about his debt to him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-07-28 02:20 by Mel Belli.

Keith also did some lovely slide playing on Beggars Banquet.

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BluzDude

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with sssoul
does your dermatologist know which aspects of HTW Cooder claims he wrote?
there was a thread around here in the last year or so where he was quoted as saying he had come up with the "central riff"
but no one could decide whether that meant the opening riff ("central" as in "highly characteristic" )
or the definitive lick in the solo ("central" as in "in the middle" and using "riff" to mean "lick" or "line" )

The next time I see him (probably in January), I will ask if he knows more details. Meanwhile, another story he told me was, back in the 60's when Ry was in the studio with my dermatologist (who plays guitar) and Taj Mahal, Taj asked Ry to teach him how to play guitar, he refused, so my Dr. started giving him lessons.

Jesse Lee Kincaid??

Interesting that in the Beggars Banquet/LIB era we had excellent slide from Brian Jones, Keith Richards, and Ry Cooder. What was Mick Taylor's first slide track with the Stones?

Country Honk..

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DandelionPowderman
Country Honk..

I thought so. So in a 2-album stretch slide by Richards, Jones (No Expectations), Cooder, and Taylor. Not bad.

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
Country Honk..

I thought so. So in a 2-album stretch slide by Richards, Jones (No Expectations), Cooder, and Taylor. Not bad.

That could have happened, but SM didn't wind up on LIB. Cooder only played mandolin on LIV.

When Cooder came over to play with them, Brian was still in the band -- is that right?
Did Cooder maybe feel like his time with them was some kind of audition? Did he know that Brian was on the way out?

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
Country Honk..

I thought so. So in a 2-album stretch slide by Richards, Jones (No Expectations), Cooder, and Taylor. Not bad.

That could have happened, but SM didn't wind up on LIB. Cooder only played mandolin on LIV.

True. But from a time-recorded perspective...

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
Country Honk..

I thought so. So in a 2-album stretch slide by Richards, Jones (No Expectations), Cooder, and Taylor. Not bad.

That could have happened, but SM didn't wind up on LIB. Cooder only played mandolin on LIV.

True. But from a time-recorded perspective...

We could add Mick Jagger, who most likely also played slide on TSMR, to expand the club..

Ry Cooder did some great things for the Stones. Played good on LIB, excellent on Memo from Turner and Sister Morphine. And he inspired Keith, to say the least.

Welcome back 71Tele

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TheGreek
Welcome back 71Tele

Thank you, my Greek friend.