Yesterday night, I watched "Live at the Max" in DVD.
It's really incredible to see how much the quality of their performance has decreased.
Songs like Tumbling Dice and Brown Sugar and IORR were just swinging at that time.
The playing of Keith was incredible. For me, he was at his best during the SW/UJ tour. Now, I have the feeling that these songs are sloppy.

It is important to say that I am not fed up with the warhorses: I still have a great pleasure when listening to Atlantic City 89 or Tokyo Dome 90 for instance.

Do you have the same feeling ?

My question is : what are the reasons of that change ?

Is it because of D.Jones who grooves more than he swings?

Is it because of Keith who is most of the time just the shadow of himself?
I don't think that he drives the songs like he used to do.

Is it because of Ronnie who has just become a pathetic guitar player?

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold yer horses. I don't have that feeling at all. I think that every tour since 89 have been better than exactly that SW tour. In 89 there was no edges to their playing at all. That's why I don't really like it so much. Now they got some cool edges again (Not like they had from 62 to 67 or from 68 to 78, but different). The songs just keep getting better, with a few exceptions like SFTD.

JumpingKentFlash

JumpingKentFlash Wrote:
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> Whoa whoa whoa. Hold yer horses. I don't have that
> feeling at all. I think that every tour since 89
> have been better than exactly that SW tour. In 89
> there was no edges to their playing at all. That's
> why I don't really like it so much. Now they got
> some cool edges again (Not like they had from 62
> to 67 or from 68 to 78, but different). The songs
> just keep getting better, with a few exceptions
> like SFTD.
>
>
> "Better than suicide"


I completley agree, I have seen every tour since 81 and for me the 89 was by far the worst, too slick, and they seemed to "go through the motions" more on that tour more then any other I have seen.

All tours have been children of their time. The late 80ies were about clean perfection. And let´s face it: The Stones themselves were a bit unsure if they could meet the standard. Once they rolled it was clear that they again set the standard themselves. If I check recording of 89/90 I am always surprised how fast they played most of the stuff. Compare it too Voodoo, they really slowed it down on that one (compare Start Me Up from Flashpoint and then maybe Miami 94!). Also 97/98 some warhorses were slower, but in 2002/2003 they had a great timing - not too fast, but also not too slow, just like 81/82.

The only tour I didn't think that great since 82 was 94/95. Every thing seemed to be so slow from the opener onwards.

Yes the tours were mostly a produc tof their times. SW was so slick but they did play a bit more. Everything had this skipping bop to it. Those two keyboards were terrible! Guitars were too processed. With VL they cam back, maybe too slow at first but I think they were making the point of going back to rootsy guitars. Then on B2B and especially NS they got it jetright.
On lix Ronnie for a while was playing a LOT. In USA when I saw them he was hot. But in Euro he had fallen back asleep.
I heard a boot from 90 the other day and it is REDHOT! Surprised me.
But nowadays it is strage, This new tour might show us something. Because I feel like they are going to limit the horns to less playing. At least in the beginning. That means that Keith and Ron (and Jagger too, let's not forget he has become a major force on guitars) will have to step up. And that could prove interesting because they have really toned it down. Keith on those hollowbodies and ultraclean sound, lo volume is pl;aying very sparse. Plus he makes a lot of mistakes. Ron - we shall see. Maybe Jagger and Blondie will be the new guitar twins LOL
God would I love to see a different keyboardman. Even if it not Mac. I so hate Leavell. That little hamster face. Aarggh! Leavell and bernard in the back please.

I do not agree. I think KR and RW did their best playing on the Voodoo tour. They were very aggressive on that tour.....the Arthritis was not as bad for KR and if RW was wasted every night onstage you could not tell. On Voodoo their was "an edge"..........they brought back some hidden gems (Monkey Man to name one) played and sang with conviction. A perfect balance between the actual Stones and the supporting cast.

I saw several B2B shows and Ronnie seemed out of it. KR and RW, in the shows I saw, barely interacted. The stage was beyond huge....just too much eye candy and the shows did not have the energy at the end that I had come to expect from the band. The setlist was good, they did good songs but something was missing.

The LICKS shows that I saw I thought were great. The energy....that "Stones Buzz" was back. Ronnie was participating in the shows I saw except for the MSG show that is on Four Flicks. I was just off the B-stage, 5 rows back...Ronnie was screwing around with the crowd the whole time. Did nothing on "Whip"..Keith carried the song and was VERY Pissed cause Mick missed the start of the second verse. KR gave MJ the look of Death and MJ stuck his tounge out at him...pretty funny. On SOME songs the guitar playing could have been better, but don't forget all the GOOD playing and how good the songs sounded on LICKS.

LICKS was the best series of shows I saw since Voodoo.

Milo, NYC
The bands on stage and its one of those nights

"LICKS was the best series of shows I saw since Voodoo.

That's true for the first leg of the tour (USA).
Believe me, some European shows were a distaster.

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I completly agree with kent, though i respect and would always listen to an 89-90 show, it is usually my last choice, the guitars are to choppy and processed. UNfortunally, mick made the mistake of listing to the sposers in saying they want more songs. so mick bumps it up to 28 songs and beacuse of it, we get 5 mintue MR and 5 mintue YCAGWYW. And dont get me started about matt clifford. also the Bass and drums were just way, way too high. thats my feeling on SW/UJ

It'probably the age!
But in 1990 there was so much keyboards and i hate Matt Clifford!!
the mix was not good, not a rock and roll mix

But now i think Keith had some problems with his fingers



Sorry for my poor english guys, i'm french you know just like Pierre De Beauport

I found the 1999 No Security shows to be among ther best. With one exception (the Chicago show in March) they were simply incredible. Tight when it called for it, loose hen it called for it, and very intense. The most underrated tour in hindsight IMHO.

NS (especially first part) and LL US leg were pretty good, with Ron/Keith reasonably active. No doubt Jagger and Watts were right there all the time.
LL European leg big differences per gig. The R'dam and HOckehmheim gigs were good. A'dam was a real underperformance.
The BtB gigs I saw, Ronnie hardly touched his guitar, it was plain embarassing. He was better during SW and VL but I hardly play bootlegs from that period as I don't like the setlist that much with songs like Rock and a hard place, Sparks will fly, etc.
Let's face it. A lot will depend on how Ronnie will perform. Keith alone cannot carry the show anymore. And if the the background vocalists, Chuck and the brassband finally know their place, they might be really rocking again like they seem to have done at the rehearsal gig.

Since 1989? In my opinion:

#1 Voodoo Lounge Tour and Licks Tour
#3 SW/UJ Tour
#4 B2B Tour

I think the so boring nagging about the guitars is completely insipid. During Licks i enjoyed the guitars on SFM much more than ever since 1973. PIB sounded in my ears better than in 1989/90. Midnight Rambler, Stray Cat Blues, Bitch, CYHMK, Neighbours, If You Can't Rock Me and others rocked me 100%. The other warhorses stable (except Gimme Shelter, the weak point of Licks Tour, in my opinion).

To me Keith is still a great guitarist. On the american leg of the Tour Ponnie was marvellous.

tomstones says : "All tours have been children of their time. The late 80ies were about clean perfection (...) If I check recording of 89/90 I am always surprised how fast they played most of the stuff. Compare it too Voodoo, they really slowed it down on that one (compare Start Me Up from Flashpoint and then maybe Miami 94!). Also 97/98 some warhorses were slower, but in 2002/2003 they had a great timing - not too fast, but also not too slow, just like 81/82."

Good points, but in my opinion "fast" do not mean "great" always. We talking about music, not about Formula 1! An example: UMT and LSTNT from Still Life album were fast and perfect versions but Satisfaction was fast and horrible! HTW from Hyde Park was a slow, but nice, splendid version.

Enjoy the new tour! Let's rock...

nmaillot wrote: "LICKS was the best series of shows I saw since Voodoo. That's true for the first leg of the tour (USA). Believe me, some European shows were a distaster."


nmaillot, "some European shows" and "European Tour" are not the same thing. They have always high standards. I never had seen a "disaster" at a concert of the Stones. An average their show could be a nice concert of 10,000 other bands, that's the difference.

nmaillot Wrote:
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> "LICKS was the best series of shows I saw since
> Voodoo.
>
> That's true for the first leg of the tour (USA).
> Believe me, some European shows were a distaster.

Denmark @#$%& rocked.

JumpingKentFlash

Maybve it's me but I don;t think their shows have changed all that much since 89. They have all been very slick and "produced". they seem to lack the spontinaenty of the 70s. But I like em

since 89,,,,1. Bridges.....2. No Security.....3.Voodoo Lounge.....

"Cafaro wrote: "They have all been very slick and "produced". they seem to lack the spontinaenty of the 70s. But I like em"

Of course, their playing is well - balanced now. And, to be honest, i miss not the kind of "spontinaenty" that dominate the Love You Live period (i mean not the early 70s, just the middle seventies). Remember the LYL album: Mick bellowing, not singing on HTW and JJF. Mick singing completely out of tune on SFTD. The weakest, nervelees version of Tumpling Dice. An embarrassed version of YCAGWYW (some fans love Ronnie's solo, but to me is a bit childish).

Yes, the Stones today have not this kind of "spontinaenty". They are wiser. Fortunately!

No Security is at the top of my list. Stage in the round, areans not stadiums, fantastic setlist, whats not to like? Moonlight Mile, Some Girls, Respectable, Route 66, Midnight Rambler, etc... Some fantastic performances on this tour.

The whole "Ronnie doesnt play" argument is getting really old. I agree, there are some occasions when he goofs off or whatever, but thats not all the time, so give him a break. Secondly, I think the main reason Ronnie doesnt get the credit due to him is the fact that their sound engineer for house sound generally seems to put Ronnie at half of Keef's volume. This is bullshit. How can they weave properly when the guitars arent balanced... Just my two cents.

drake - I agree with you. for those that have heard the bootleg from the 1-16-03 MSG show (the show previous to the HBO broadcast) - it's very interesting. Ronnie's guitar is mixed much higher than KR's on this particular recording (a line recording, excellent). From this recording it's pretty obvious what's going on here - Ronnie plays pretty well throughout (as good as can be expected these days, anyway). But, when an "official" recording comes out, as in the HBO show, you can barely detect Ronnie in the mix. It's obviously a Keith ego thing going on - my instinct is that KR and RW aren't the pals they used to be...probably 'cos KR lost his drinking buddy, etc.