i was rereading Stanley Booth's biography of Keith last night, and was kind of struck by this sentence: "Sticky Fingers was the Stones' first album without any strictly English references; Exile was American."

like a lot of things in this book, that sounds like the rough draft of an observation that could have been developed into an intriguing idea, but wasn't. if we replace "first album" with "first album comprised mainly of MJ/KR originals" ... hm, sure enough: SF is indeed the first in a run of albums that don't display any particular Englishness.

i'd never thought about it before - and have no idea whether it's an insight that leads anywhere or not - but given the nicely international crowd here i would be intrigued to hear other people's takes on the Englishness of Stones albums.

off the top of my head (which is an American ex-pat head), i'd say the next albums after Let It Bleed that include anything audibly, specifically English in the music and/or lyrics are Some Girls, Emotional Rescue and Tattoo You. any other impressions?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 19:10 by with sssoul.

I always say that Between the Buttons is the most British of all Stonesalbums.
The early ones are all prettyt much steepd in American culture. Not until they get good with the originals does it get British. "Aftermath" begins it, on though Buttons to "Satanic".
Even though Banquet was very rural and Country much of it wasn't neccssarily US Country. There is a lot of Brit in there too. LIB still much too. Then you'rwe right. No more until "Where the Boys Go",. As I'm thikning of all the albums after LIB I can only think of the odd tune here and there that pops out as "British".

>> Even though Banquet was very rural and Country much of it wasn't neccssarily US Country. There is a lot of Brit in there too. LIB still much too. <<

yep - lyrically there are lots of British references on those albums (including your very own Chelsea Drugstore); i'd love to hear more about the musical Britishness, if you feel like elaborating. Factory Girl comes to mind - that "Appalachianness" is in fact pretty unadulterated British.

as for later outcroppings of Englishness, i guess i was thinking of the punk flavor of Some Girls as pretty English - but i cheerfully admit that i really have no idea what i'm talkin about. :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 19:10 by with sssoul.

Chelsea more or less nailed it with Buttons the most British of all the albums.

100 Years Ago and Always Suffering conjure up images of the English countryside, whereas Emotional Rescue has a foot on both sides of the Atlantic with English lyrics sung by Mick in an American 80's soul style.

ROCKMAN

Buttons is definately the most British album.

"Remember, if you're out on your bike, wear white"

I think that Short and Curlies could be rather English, but this depends on what he's saying. To me, it sounds like "She's got you by the boards". Boards is an english term (short for side-boards) for "mutton chops" or "side-burns". However, sometimes it sounds like "balls", which, to me, is more american than the british "bollocks".

i agree, of course, that Buttons is obviously the most English-flavored of all, but am interested in the way "specifically English references" disappeared from the music and lyrics for a while starting with SF, and then started cropping up again.

interesting comments, Rockman & SJS12 - i don't hear 100 Years Ago as especially English; and it's never sounded to me like Short & Curlies has the addressee by anything *but* the balls. :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 19:10 by with sssoul.

Listen back to it later and you might hear what I mean. I always thought it was balls until someone said to me that they thought it was balls. I went away and listened to it again and I now hear that when I listen to it.

Typical Jagger slurring.

I guess it's the mention of walking in the woods and furrows in the forehead that can conjure up English images in 100 Years Ago. Not to mention Mick's English drawl of "Call Me Lazzzy Bones".....

ROCKMAN

When I wrote mt first post I realized that thw whole Britishness/vs USA has a lot to do with Jagger and Keith coming into their own as songwriters. It follows their evolving as humans, I think. At first they were very young and impressionable and elverything across the pond seems huge and bigger than life. Keith's fascination with Roy Rogers and Chuck Berry. Jagger's love fore the old Bluesmen. And also in those earlier days Brian, Bill, Charlie and Stu were all a lot more aprt of the band's consciousness. Everyone of those four had their own heroes in American culture. They set out to be Blues purists, to carry the message to England so it onl;y stands to reason that they played almost exclusively American music. Very American.
Then they begin to write their own stuff. Now they are after all English boys, they live over there. So what comes out in the early tries is the top layer of identity. They write about whatn they see, and covet. There are lots of easy girls, and frozen steaks and instant cakes, they sit at the window and watch as tears go by etc. Most of their albums are Blues covers but the originals bring out the Euro influence. Get off my Cloud in the eraly days with the Union Jack and the "Ten Pounds" line that later becomes "25 Dollars".
So they comeinto their own with the Beatles right next door who didn't need the US Blues nearly as much as the Stones. Aftermanth and Buttons come about, All originals of the first degree and of course they are a reflexion of all around. Miss Amanda Jones, teh groupies, When there is an obvious outside insoiration like Dylan on Sleeping Here it is just that: obvious. I think that Satanic is almost as British as Buttons. There is precious little Blues on that album. Citadel rings of Arthur and stuff. It's all Euro trash futurism. Reminds me of those movies Zabriskie Point, Blow Up, Kubrick. "On With the Show", "Rainbow" ahve that Euro psychedlia that seemd to borrow a lot from the Cabaret culture.
Musical markers I guess would be the horns. Not saxophones and solos, but Tuba and Trombone in chart form. European.
All those instruments that Brian is so famous for are not a bit USA. The slide later on. But now he was playing dulcimer, mellotron, fl;utes, xylophones. Rooted in Celtic history. Brian looks basically nordic, scandinavian and his roots came out when he was pushed. the beautiful accordion in back Street Girl sings of Paris. "She smiled sweetly" should be in Clockwork Orange. And all thos echarleston numvers from the 66/67 period go right back to Berlin.
I am just rambling here people. You are welcome to shoot me down at any time. I don't even go for these "deep" postings. Don't even want to read what just fell out...

The difference between Some Girls and Emotional Rescue is huge. SG is of course punk-influenced (english), but the content and the rock'n'roll is IMO more american.

On ER the cockney punk-ish things (english) are stronger represented (Where The Boys Go is a great example).

Interesting topic. I think that Stanley Booth's insight is correct: Sticky Fingers is very American (contrasted to Beggars or Let It Bleed). In that album the Stones are professionals who master any musical genre coming from America: country blues, r&b, country&western, soul, hard rock.. I think that it is the level of professionalism and originality that is the difference between SF and their early 64-65 attempts to copy American music; now they know how to do it with their own flavor and material. I am thinking songs like "Wild Horses", "Dead Flowers", "I Got The Blues", "You Gotta Move"... Their form are even 'too pure' in terms of music and lyrics. Perhaps only "Sister Morphine" has that sort of British feeling of Beggars/Let It Bleed feeling on it.

Yeah, I also agree with Chelsea that Between The Buttons is their most English album; all that Aftermath-BTB-Satanic -era has that English, London, Kings Road, Carnaby Street, Swingin sixties-feeling in them. BB and LIB have a different feeling, and stronger musical direction (back) into American music (blues), but the political flavor of songs like "Salt of Earth", "Factory Girl", "Street Fighting Man", "Jig-Saw Puzzle" are so English/European influenced. The context seems to be London. Perhaps Let It Bleed is a bit more americanized than BB, but still we are having quite determinate descriptions and references like "demonstrations" and "shooting water rabits" and "having tea at three".. the view for example into country music is still typical European minded: "Country Honk" is basically a joke. There's a huge difference to masterpieces as "Wild Horses" or "Dead Flowers", the songs where they seem to nail the form.

Somehow the professionalization and mastering different styles of American music seems to co-happen in Sticky Fingers. But something is also lost in the process: after Sticky odd and cross-stylistic masterpieces like "Paint It, Black", "Sympathy For The Devil" and "Gimme Shelter" are not anymore to be expected. That sort of experientalism does not suit for pro-musicians.

- Doxa

You hit some good points, Chelsea. I think Brian was 'instrumental' in creating that British, European, Indian flavor to the Stones sound from '65 to '68. After his death, the Stones embarked on a purely American sound starting with Sticky Fingers, which was essentially their first album without BJ. The only time the Stones have recaptured their mid Sixties sound since SF was on Continental Drift, and that was I believe an unofficial tribute to Brian . . .

Between the Buttons hands down is THE most English album the band ever made. Some gems on it but also some silly songs that were just a little too Beatle-like for me.

The topic. Their is always some "Englishness" in their music. Starting With Beggars the music was all American influenced: Gospel, country, blues, Appalachian Folk mixed with blues and they kinda put a new twist on a "rock" song with Stray Cat, SFM & Sympathy. The lyrics were very English on Beggars. I think it was Mick writing about English society, for the most part and the music speaks for itself.

I want to hear some English references now and then......to me it means they are writing and saying what they want.

The most English song since Buttons has to be "Where The Boys Go". If I remember Mick just sings it straight away.

Milo, NYC
You better choose your medicine

However, they still sound different to american bands such as Aerosmith, Lynard Skynard, the Band and GnR. I don't know if it is the fact that they are English boys playing american music, as opposed to american boys copying english boys playing american music (if you know what I mean).

What I am trying to say is that there is still a major English Influence, even in SF.

sjs12 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Listen back to it later and you might hear what I
> mean. I always thought it was balls until someone
> said to me that they thought it was balls. I went
> away and listened to it again and I now hear that
> when I listen to it.
>
> Typical Jagger slurring.


its balls. "short and curlies" is slang for pubes

>> I don't know if it is the fact that they are English boys playing american music <<

i think it's because they are the Rolling Stones and no one else even comes close.
but i digress (or do i?).
you're on a roll, Chelsea Drugstore!
i agree, Doxa: Sister Morphine sure enough has that European flavor to it, as do the lyrics to Bitch. so in fact the good Stanley is a bit off in calling SF a *complete* departure from Europe, but it is a further distinct step away.
as to when Englishness started cropping back up: i agree that SG is of course miles different from ER, and indeed it is way more American-sounding. forget i mentioned it! :E
you're all fascinating me - go on go on! i'll make some fresh popcorn.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 19:11 by with sssoul.

Without any argueing I´d just wanna add that Satanic Majesties
also is very British in all its cosmopolitishness.

English connection

In the sweet old country where I come from
Nobody ever works
Yeah nothing gets done
We hang fire, we hang fire

ROCKMAN

Re: Short and Curlies...

It was the IORR songbook that had the "boards" lyrics.
Likewise, the GHS songbook had it as "starbucker."
Can't dirty the mind of those teenagers!
Nice pictures in the IORR songbook, too.

i absolutely agree that SM is ultra English/European. (i regard Buttons as SM Junior anyway, so it seems only natural that they've got the same cultural heritage.)

back to Sticky Fingers for a minute: smile, we also have that English blood running hot on it, don't we - but in an American setting. which could work pretty well as a metaphor, if only i had enough caffeine in me: SF isn't devoid of Englishness, but it's Englishness in transit. and then comes Exile.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 19:12 by with sssoul.

By the time of Exile the Englishness was no where to be heard as The Stones dished out the greatest smoldering piece of American influenced rock & blues ever produced.

ROCKMAN

My complements back to you, dear ma´am/mizzuz with sssoul:

I look at these albums on exactly the same way as you just mirrored...



(...BTW Does anyone on this planet agree with me that Exile & GHS are the
best [=messiest and clearest, respectively] produced album by the Stones ever?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-06-30 13:22 by Baboon Bro.

Their Englishness shines through every album they made. Fingers, Exile all interpret American music, but seen through the eyes of Englishmen. It's in the production, the sound, the language, it's everywhere.

Mathijs

Yeah but isn't this post all about English references in the songs?

ROCKMAN

I don't think so - look at the post title.

Ahhh...Screwed me thought it was about English references in the lyrics...!

ROCKMAN

It is a weird circle. Kind of has to do with the fact that it took the Beatles an Stones to show the American people what they had going for them in their own backyard. The Stones had to come from England and play US Blues to the American people better than anyone else, or at least more accessible than before to turn the USA on.
Same thing with what Mathijs mentions about "Exile" and the lingo. "exile" is chockfull of the coolest lingo ever. Jagger was on such a roll. But so much of it is the Deep south seen through the longing eyes of an impressionable Englishman and recounted in the hippest coolest phrases. the way he thinks people talk over here. Once the US heard it, they indeed began talking,ike it again.
U2 tried to do it oo with Rattle and Hum and the Joshua Tree. IMO they tried a bit too hard. In the film Rattle and Hum they do a version of "I still havemn't found" in the church with a gospel choir. It has got to be one of the most embarrassing moments for white people EVER!

sjs12.....from the first sentence

"Sticky Fingers was the Stones' first album without any strictly English references

ROCKMAN

thanks for the chance to clarify, gentlemen! i don't know if Stanley Booth was thinking strictly about lyrics when he wrote that; for me "references" can be musical as well. i wouldn't want to dismiss lyrics from this discussion completely (especially since i've cited a few my own self!), but i'm even more fascinated to hear about the "Englishness" in the music itself. i don't have the vocabulary (or the confidence) to talk about that myself, but love to read what those of you who know how to discuss it have to say.

digressing briefly: maybe lyrics get a lot of attention on the boards mainly because our communication here is limited to words & pictures. one day we'll have boards where we can all plug in our instruments and jam. i'll do the bop bops. :E

and Bro, you can call me just plain sssoul. :E



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 19:14 by with sssoul.

I can see clearly now the rain is gone.......ROCKMAN