Listening Gimme Shelter in 1975, it seems so despite the typical Ron's "mandoline" effects.

I think that in this version Ron is very good and in his own style..
to be frank, when I heard it for the first time, I did not even think of Mick Taylor...

Wood once said in an 1975 interview that he listened to tapes of 1973 gigs in order to hear what Taylor did, and indeed if you listen to Gimme Shelter, YCAGWY and Midnight Rambler from 1975 you hear Taylor influences.

Mathijs

Ronnie's "gift" has always been as a copier - it's a blessing and a curse, in a sense. I'm not sure he nor the Stones have the confidence to just play songs (that he didn't participate on originally) his own way.

Yes

Defintely. Ronnie had some big shoes to fill after Mick left and the extended solos he takes on these songs were very in keeping with the spot Mick had filled but note that during the '76 tour he pared it down a bit and by '78 he was playing more in his own style.

It seems pretty logical to me that Woody played the songs in a way similar to Taylor arrangements (I'd say arrangements better than style, since everyone had their own style). In fact, Ronnie wasn't even a Stone when they did the TOTA (he toured with the Faces after this tour), and I suppose he hadn't too much time to develope his own arrangements to the Stones catalogue. And after all, as a guest musician, he somewhat had the "replace-that-blonde-vibrato-ace-guitarboy" job, so I find logical that he played the "Taylor versions" with his own style.

When he turned to be a full-time Stone he began to develope his own arrangements, so the "Ronnie versions" began to appear.

[There'll be no wedding today...]

disagree - Ronnie has still consistently aped MT at almost every turn, even in more recent years....cases in point:

1) CYHMK - discussed to death, of course
2) Love in Vain - horrendous attempt to recreate the MT solo on the Licks tour
3) WAY - guess he's really trying to copy Mandel here, but, once again the results are disastrous
4) Heartbreaker - both Licks and VL tours - wah-wah solo right out of GHS (or tyring to be)
5) Tumbling Dice - more times than not you can tell he still uses the MT solo as his template

....and there are many others....

Come '05 tour you can bet we'll all be disecting RW's feeble attempt to recreate the Sway solo....

Here we go again!!!!

He even tried to copy taylor's intro solo on If You Cant Rock Me

T&A Wrote:
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> disagree - Ronnie has still consistently aped MT
> at almost every turn, even in more recent
> years

I don't agree on this, T&A. Of course there are some songs you pointed where Ronnie tried to copy or adapt some of Taylor licks (CYHMK is an obvious example), but there are some songs where some solo or guitar lick or melody are a "trademark" for the song, so I don't think it's fair to say that Ronnie has been copying Taylor, but performing a certain song.

But for many (maybe most) of the songs Ronnie has developed his own arrangements (you can like them or not, but that's another question: "the endless question") which are completely different to Taylor's. One of the best examples can be Brown Sugar: I don't find many similarities (sp?) between the Brussels version and the LYL version, for example. I don't find that Ronnie's classic solo on TD is a "copy" of Taylor's, neither.

My point is that he tried to "adapt" Taylor's work back in the TOTA because of the reasons I pointed before, but later on he developed his own arrangements. (Anyway, I can be completely wrong...)

[There'll be no wedding today...]

Brown Sugar is a differnt animal, really, as the original studio version is virtually absent of a signature guitar solo...so RW didn't really have a need to mimic MT there. What about items 2,3,4 on my post above? What's the finding/explanation there, bruno?

As you pointed, some songs don't have a signature guitar solo or melody. Items 2, 3 and 4 in your list do have.

(And BTW, even BS has a signature guitar solo on Taylor's live versions, IMO)

[There'll be no wedding today...]

As far as i can see is that the solo is a part of the song, and if taylor or wood plays it, it doesn`t mather. Only thing is that they are two different guitarist, with two different style, so there is NO comparing between these two.

Thank you to Bruno for stating the flaw in T&A and Open G's argument. Wood was performing a song that was recorded in a certain manner. As far as OpenG's statement that he even tried to copy the opening to If You Cant Rock Me, get your head out of MT's backside. If Wood didnt play it as MT played it, you would be complaining that he didnt have the skills to duplicate the sound.

yeah Ron wood has the ability to come up with taylor's triple stops on
CYHMK and all the rest

What kind of ability does taylor have for the last 30 years, let`s face it, without the stones nobody would ever talk about him. I really like the guy, and he is one of the best guitarist. But don`t make it more than it is.

if MT played a solo on an album and they perform it live what's wrong with ron slightly copying it? mick taylor played allot of superb solo's and it'd be a waste to completely re-design the whole solo.. wouldn't it now?

Solo's aren't "designed" - that's the problem. RW plays them as though they are. I'm not bashing him over it - just pointing out that a true soloist (RW isn't - that's a different disseration altogether) doesn't ape another's licks.

In the Stones the solos often are designed and performed similarly time after time. They are very integrated in the songs.

I think Woody was just trying to 'keep up' during TOTA. He proved himself to be a reliable and flexible guitarist in a situation that would have entirely annihilated other, weaker, players. I take my tiara off to 'im!

"The wonder of Jimi Hendrix was that he could stand up at all he was so pumped full of drugs." Patsy, Patsy Stone

Bärs Wrote:
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> In the Stones the solos often are designed and
> performed similarly time after time. They are very
> integrated in the songs.

???

SFTD had very different solos during the '69-70 tours from the studio recording. Since then, they've ventured closer to the album, but Keith has never reproduced his first solo from the studio recording.

Taylor's live solos on GS, Stray Cat, TD, BS, Happy, etc. seemed very far from Keith's or Keys' "design" (though perhaps not oblivious to it in some cases) and was not performed similarly across tours and often not even within a tour. Keith's live solo on LWM differed from Keys' sax solo in the studio. Sometimes the lead is very much a rhythm (HTW, ATPT so that live solo matches the studio performance, but at least through '77 this seems rare.



wild_horse_pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What kind of ability does taylor have for the last
> 30 years, let`s face it, without the stones nobody
> would ever talk about him. I really like the guy,
> and he is one of the best guitarist. But don`t
> make it more than it is.


Oh no not a Taylor-Wood thread again
Messing up our board
...
One is yellow
The other plays like jello
...
One wears a couture dress
The other is a mess
blah blah blah
Oh no

Smokey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Oh no not a Taylor-Wood thread again
> Messing up our board
> ...
>

something to do while we count down the days for the album/tour....mess away!

Well, most song are the same during different periods, live. When the Vegas act began in 1989 they started to play the songs close to the original recordings and that still seems to be the formula. Brown Sugar has always been played the same way with the same solo from Ron give pr take some notes or lack of playing. It is a show and they play it safe.

"Solos aren't designed.." What does that even mean?

it means they aren't "choreographed" per se. In jazz, for instance, you'd be rarely find a soloist who pre-designed how a solo would be played. Furthermore, it would rarely be played the same (even nearly the same) twice. That's what I'm trying to say - Ronnie really isn't a soloist (not a criticism - I like him as a guitarist) in that sense...he plays pre-determined passages, instead.

Hey T&A, we are not talking about jazz and we are not talking the intricacies of soloists. Save it for a Miles Davis chat room or a course at the Juilliard School of Music. We are talking about a rock and roll band that plays together and that is what has kept them around so long.

no we're not - we're talking about RW's soloing - you must be on the wrong thread, Tony

(aka T&A)

IMO, there's only one solo that Ronnie tries to copy (remember the meaning of the word...), and that is All Down The Line. But then again, it would be stupid not to do it - the solo is such a big part of the song.

Other examples mentioned:

Heartbreaker:
Taylor didn't use wah-wah... Can't see too many similarities in the solos...

Love In Vain:
Remember that Woody always has done great work on this one without copying.

If You Can't Rock Me:
Can't see any copying there? Woody invented a few breaks (which are great) before the verses. Keith starts the solo, and Ronnie continues in his own style (both in 75/76 and 02/03).

YCAGWYW:
His own style (smart move), like it or not (I liked the 75/76 solos a lot).

But in general, we gotta be aware of that the fans were digging the classic songs of "The World's Greatest Rock'n'Roll Band, and it's risky to mess too much with the songs (and solos) for a new guitar player.

DandelionPowderman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO, there's only one solo that Ronnie tries to
> copy (remember the meaning of the word...), and
> that is All Down The Line. But then again, it
> would be stupid not to do it - the solo is such a
> big part of the song.
>
> Other examples mentioned:
>
> Heartbreaker:
> Taylor didn't use wah-wah... Can't see too many
> similarities in the solos...
>
> Love In Vain:
> Remember that Woody always has done great work on
> this one without copying.
>
> If You Can't Rock Me:
> Can't see any copying there? Woody invented a few
> breaks (which are great) before the verses. Keith
> starts the solo, and Ronnie continues in his own
> style (both in 75/76 and 02/03).
>
> YCAGWYW:
> His own style (smart move), like it or not (I
> liked the 75/76 solos a lot).
>
> But in general, we gotta be aware of that the fans
> were digging the classic songs of "The World's
> Greatest Rock'n'Roll Band, and it's risky to mess
> too much with the songs (and solos) for a new
> guitar player.
>


And that is what Bärs meant with designed solos. The solos are trademarks, not improvised bits. But I dont think Ronnie has copied all solos. Brown Sugar is his.