As I understand it, the Verve sampled some symphonic rendering of the Last Time but took too much, hence the royalties go to Abkco. My question where is this clasical version of the Last Time from? At one point I had some symphonic Rolling Stones CD that was mostly absurd but I do not recall the Last Time. Anyone know this bit of trivia?

The "classical version" of The Last Time is from the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra.

[www.amazon.com]

Not only did they sample from the track and played some parts themselves inspired by the symphonic version they also nicked the slower paced string melody/slowed down version of the stones melody as the vehicle for their lyrics.

In a more forgiving world, the credits would have been music by Jagger/Richards - Words by Richard Ashcroft.

The track is basically a cover version of the ALO Orchestra Last Time, but with the Richards words.

Its amazing the Hugh number of articles Ive come across that say The Stones sued The Verve.Obviously the cretin reporters cannot even check their facts.

If you go onto the Hot Stuff section, I'm sure you can find it or else request it. Once you hear the ALO Orchestra version, you'll know why ABKCO sued. Before I heard the orchestra version, I couldn't figure out how the Verve song sounded anything remotely like The Last Time.

ROCKMAN

The only original parts I can hear that aren't on the orchestral Last Time are the lyrics and the skipping string motif. That vocal melody is 99% hook, line and sinker knicked.

''I told you once and I told you twice'' - ''It's a Bittersweet Symphony that's life''

Bittersweet Symphony is an absolute classic and is up there with some of the Stones best work, imo. OK, Ashcroft was a little cheeky in nicking an obscure - come on! - piece of orchestration and sampling it, but one of the songs great components is the feel, swagger and sheer attitude that Ashcroft and the others delivered to the listener.

Here is a live rendition and as you can hear: NO STRINGS!

BSS is a great track and I like it a lot, but they did more than just sample, the only real thing they wrote was the lyrics and skipping string motif.

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His Majesty
BSS is a great track and I like it a lot, but they did more than just sample, the only real thing they wrote was the lyrics and skipping string motif.

So, you are saying that the actual melody is the same as well?

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His Majesty
In a more forgiving world, the credits would have been music by Jagger/Richards - Words by Richard Ashcroft.

In a more forgiving world, the credits would have been:
Music by the ALO Orchestra (based on music by Jones/Richards with a nod to the Staples Singers)
Words by Richard Ashcroft

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Big Al
So, you are saying that the actual melody is the same as well?

The music of BSS was a total rip-off of the ALOO version of the Last Time. Listen for yourself on youtube.

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Rockman

The reason why abkco went after the Verve was because they claimed authorship of almost everything as the article states. They were liars because the melody and the whole inspiration for the hit came from the ALO Orchestra.

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Big Al

So, you are saying that the actual melody is the same as well?

Yes, large parts of the ALOO string melody is present in the vocal melody on BSS, it ain't exact at all points though.

The ALOO string melody is basically a slowed down version of what Mick sings on the stones own recording. Imagine everything on the stones hit at half speed, that's what the ALO version is really.

Stick the verves words on it and you have something that is very close to BSS.

Just hum the first lines of both songs "well it's a bittersweet symphony" and "well I told you once and I told you twice..." for yourself and tell if there's any difference...

----------------------------
"Music is the frozen tapioca in the ice chest of history."

"Shit!... No shit, awright!"

The Verve asked for permission to use the sample and got it.
Then it was decided that they used too much of it.
Why wasn't the "how much" part spelled out in the contract?
...oh, I know...to give Klein an excuse to sue.

According to Keith, "It's just legal s&!t"
According to Ashcorft, ""It's the best song that Jagger and Richards ever wrote"

I knew all of you would know the facts

you can find a short preview of the Oldham version here:

[rcpt.yousendit.com]

At the time I did not understand what the fuzz was about since I didn't recognise the sample, until I heared this take.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-07-21 09:20 by Promoman.

>> Why wasn't the "how much" part spelled out in the contract? <<

apparently it was spelled out in the licensing agreement, and apparently the Verve used more than was spelled out.

was the case actually settled in court or out of court?

By watching solely that acoustic version, I would say that if it had been released as like that, no one would have ever found the resemblance between it and "The Last Time". Anyway, clearly the song is nothin but "humble along with ALO's song, vary the melody little, and come up some lyrics of your own" (the idea I think His Majesty described) but for reason or other, they decided to keep the 'original track' there, and so leave clear evidence or tracks of the robbery behind... Were they too stupid or honest, or were they thinking that no one will take care or notice?

The truth is also that the so called 'sample' borrowed to "Bitter Sweet Symphony" (the title also inspired by ALO's band?) is very much a factor that makes the song unique-sounding, and distinguished listening... I don't think the song by its own terms, heard on this no doubt nice acoustic version, is such strong and hit-potential; it sounds sweet because we already recognize and remember the song in its original setting.

But if there would have not been that legal hassle, I would have taken the whole song as a homage to the Stones - where in earth they even found the rare ALO record in the first place???? Hardcore Stones fan stuff indeed - "passing the torch" to use Keith's cliches, but somehow the whole thing turned out be a nasty business, and The Stones seemed to be the one who suffered most in it (imagewise, that is, of course, not businesswise - and taking the fact that the Stones generally not have been very impressive in the eyes of the young bands during last decades, this didn't help much either). And I, to be honest, need to almost agree with Ashcroft that "Bitter Sweet Symphony" is the "best Jagger-Richards composition they have written for twenty years" - it is a very strong record indeed.

Okay, that's about what I have to say about that (I don't care so much about the legal sh-t, but more of the content of the creation), but let me put this into another perspective. Say, if a guy named Bill comes up with a riff that constitutes the musical theme of a song: This riff is taken by his pals, call them Mick and Keith, and they make a song out of it: write lyrics and perhaps vary a theme into the structure of few chord song. Call the product "Jumpin' Jack Flash". To whom you would give the credits?

I think unwritten law of music business is that no matter who did what, and to which content, in the end the song is credited to Jagger/Richards! ><

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-07-21 12:33 by Doxa.

I've never heard that before. Superb stuff. Verve were very cheeky.

The late Mr. Klein nabbed Carter USM's "After The Watershed" for daring to use the words "Goodbye Ruby Tuesday":





"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"