Quote
CousinC
Focused on bashing out rim-shots?!

I hardly see him do a real rimshot.

Charlie does rimshots 99% of the time since '78. In 72/73 he had the snare drum placed in an forward angle in front of him and most of the time he only hit the skin of the snare. Starting from '75 the snare was placed more straight and he started to hit both rim and skin. From '78 on he does rimshots 99% of the time, it really has become his trademark, together with the china cymbal.

Mathijs

I hate the sound of those china crash cymbals.

Quote
stoneswashed77
oh i see, it´s essential to imitate the sound of a locomotive to be a drummer.
and what some consider swing has also gotten a little too loose if you ask me.

Well, yeah, sure, all that, too. But the question was about the China cymbal.

Complaining about Charlie Watts? What's next? Blow jobs aren't perfect? P**sy sometimes smells bad? Money isn't clean?

Get a grip on reality.

What Elmo said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-05-28 04:15 by Elmo Lewis.

Quote
Elmo Lewis
Complaining about Charlie Watts? What's next? Blow jobs aren't perfect? P**sy sometimes smells bad? Money isn't clean?

Get a grip on reality.

Thank you for posting your reply. I wanted to say something along those lines, but I decided to take it a little easy. Actually, I did say something along those lines, but I went back and edited it. You can see the edit in my first reply.

Quote
Elmo Lewis
Complaining about Charlie Watts? What's next? Blow jobs aren't perfect? P**sy sometimes smells bad? Money isn't clean?

Get a grip on reality.

So true...

I love the china cymbal. It's one of Charlie's touches. It part of what makes him who he is.

Have loved the sound of that china cymbal crash since I was a little kid just hearing ER for the first time. It's his trademark and integral to the entire sound of the Stones music. Love it. Nothing remotely horrible about it. Ur horrible for saying that. How dare you

Quote
Elmo Lewis
Blow jobs aren't perfect?

The china crash is like a ragged tooth that keep catching yer...

I thought Charlie had been doing this since "Route 66" and "Honest I Do". Hey, do you think he mighta picked it up from Jimmy Reed's drummer?

Quote
scottkeef
I thought Charlie had been doing this since "Route 66" and "Honest I Do". Hey, do you think he mighta picked it up from Jimmy Reed's drummer?

No use of china crash during the 60's.

Charlie has used the China UFIP or whatever that is - he was talking about the rim shots from Jimmy Reed - to great effect on several songs. A lot of songs. My faves where it really comes through clearly and huge are She Was Hot, Tie You Up, She's So Cold, Let Me Down Slow, Thief In The Night, Flip The Switch, I Go Wild, Almost Hear You Sigh, Down In The Hole. Might be some others that I'm not remembering at the moment but those songs really stick out in my mind with having a very clear and crisp drum sound overall but the China to great effect.

[www.effingham.com]



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

Charlie does rimshots 99% of the time since '78. In 72/73 he had the snare drum placed in an forward angle in front of him and most of the time he only hit the skin of the snare. Starting from '75 the snare was placed more straight and he started to hit both rim and skin. From '78 on he does rimshots 99% of the time, it really has become his trademark, together with the china cymbal.

Mathijs[/quote]

Mathijs - you're kind of right - Charlies style of playing with holding the drum sticks using the military grip, only allows him to play with the snare drum angled down to the right, or angled slightly away from him tilting forward. He plays using the rimshot method folowed by a ghost or crushed bounce on the snare. He is an interesting drummer to watch close at hand as his style is very much his own - no one plays like Charlie Watts.

Sorry, Mathis. maybe you're right.

It's true with the angle of his snare. But I very seldom hear from him the sound of a rimshot.Tell me some examples and I'll look for that.Still can't believe it.

But I have to say unless like in the 60/70's I don't follow him that much anymore.
Like with his Co-Stones his style has become very predictable and boring to me!

Now I remember.
You're right. It's only with his military grip it is not that apparent and good to hear like when you really hit the rim!
Was wrong about that.

By the way, guys, it's not really a crash cymbal. It's a "splash" cymbal, being used by Charlie as a crash cymbal. For most drummers, a splash cymbal is really more of an effects cymbal, used from time to time for effect. It's hard to explain the difference, but if you go into any music store and hit a crash, then a splash of the same diameter, you'll understand the difference immediately.

Quote
CousinC

It's true with the angle of his snare. But I very seldom hear from him the sound of a rimshot.Tell me some examples and I'll look for that.Still can't believe it.

Look at Tumbling Dice from B2B DVD. Specially the end jam got some close ups on Charlies left hand work

Yeah, Jimmy Miller did some of the fills in the outro to Tumbling Dice...so what? Most of Exile is patched together with duct tape and elmer's glue, anyway.

Which is one of the reasons it remains such a fascinating album to listen to.

I don't get what people are saying critically about Charlie's sound or his playing. I've been playing drums for 30 years, professionally for 20, and I think Charlie is the best rock and roll drummer I've ever heard. His playing on the last few Stones tours was inspired. I don't think some people understand how difficult it is playing drums for a band like the Stones. There's a lot more going on rhythmically than in any other Rock and Roll band. Charlie's biggest sin may be making it look too easy.

Look at tumbling Dice on disc 2 of "The Roadie Tapes" (urbanSteels post) 97 NJ.
You cant be any closer to Charlie unless you were sitting in his lap!

Quote
winjoe
I don't get what people are saying critically about Charlie's sound or his playing. I've been playing drums for 30 years, professionally for 20, and I think Charlie is the best rock and roll drummer I've ever heard. His playing on the last few Stones tours was inspired. I don't think some people understand how difficult it is playing drums for a band like the Stones. There's a lot more going on rhythmically than in any other Rock and Roll band. Charlie's biggest sin may be making it look too easy.

Sorry. Can't really believe some of the things you said here.

Musical tastes are different. But best RnR drummer you ever heard?
This from a "prof. drummer"? He shurly has a somehow peculiar style of his own. One can like it, but greatest drummer?

His drumming on last tours inspired? I think he has found a way/style over the years to get his (live) work across. But can't see where this is in any way inspired drumming.

Like all Stones he's never been a virtuos musician (and of course you don't necessarily need that for rockmusic).
But to me his playing has become more of a asset manager now. Safe and foreseeable.

Perhaps when you compare his drumming from f.i. 69's YaYa's to his nowadays playing you may see what I mean.

And so difficult to play in a band like the Stones?
A lot more going on rhytmically than in all other rockbands?! Pardon?!? Come on!

I have to say, I've been a Stonesfanatic since my early teens in the 60's.
When I got a drummer Charlie was one of my biggest inspirations. Over many years I always had to defend the band.
As you should know, many/most musicians see the Stones and particularly Keith and Charlie more as a joke.
In those times I would never had thought that one day I would feel and write about them as I do now. But they stopped moving me years ago now.

They will always stay my premier band! But one has to see the reality and that that they are just no more what they used to be.
And more important, - much less than they could deliver if they still had the guts and the will!

So who really is looking forward for another part of their ongoing "30 years tour" apart from some hardcores? Even most Stonesfans are mildly bored now and don't go bananas at the thought of a new jaunt.
Charlie (and his band) are nice eccentric men these days. But not so much more . .

(And reg. those Rim-shots I still have my doubts. I know his style looks that way. But to me a rimshot has more to do with playing accents. And listening to Charlie I mostly hear him beat the skin - with a little extra "rebound".
But I'll really look at those videos!LOL.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-05-29 02:12 by CousinC.

Jimmy Miller played the drums on the outro of Tumbling Dice. Big difference between that and 'playing fills'.

Generally, Charlie is perfect and a god.

However, there was one cymbal he used to hit on the 75 tour that still irritates me when i hear it, but I cannot tell u what it is nor can i cite any particular instance unless i go back and listen to recordings, then i could easily say, but not off the top of me ead.


p

Stop...in the name of love...bash any one, except dear Charlie...

JR

Dude, or dudette, Rock and Roll is all about the feel and I've never heard anyone play that type of music with anything resembling Charlie's.

The Stones do not need defending. I have played with jazz virtuosos and blues shredders who understand perfectly well that they can't play like Keith or Charlie, just as Charlie and Keith can't play like them. I don't know any killer musicians who rip on the Stones.

Maybe the thing you don't understand is the concept of space and groove within an individual song. if you did, you might have a greater understanding of how difficult it is to be the drummer in such a band. You can't just pound your way through Stones songs. They are far more complicated than that.

And, I've listened to plenty of '69-'07 live stuff. I prefer the '78 and '81 tours. And I honestly think Charlie's post-'89 playing has remained at an insanely high level.

Seriously, next time you strap on the cans to play along to any of the Stones tunes, try to be honest with yourself about how much your personal groove would drag the song down.

I know for a fact that if you, or anyone you know, were playing drums for the Stones nobody would be dancing.

Much less paying to hear it.

So, they wiped Charlie's tracks completely? Or did Miller kick Charlie off the kit after the last verse and rush in there to save the day?. Please explain.

It really sounds like the fills are overdubbed, regardless of who is keeping the beat at the end. It's no biggie either way. I just had never heard that Miller was playing all of the drums at the end of Tumbling Dice.

Do not equate sophistication with effectiveness or greatness.

With Charlie and others, less is truly more. I kind of see that as perhaps a guiding philosophy for him.


p

I think there is a great synergy effect with the Stones. It is a special chemistry
they have that sets them apart from everyone else.
Great technical musicians make great technical music, usually a disappointment, and usually boring. It needs "that feel", the Stones have it.

Quote
CousinC
As you should know, many/most musicians see the Stones and particularly Keith and Charlie more as a joke.

And how pathetic is that?

There are hundreds of thousends of ordinary musicians doing exactly the same as every other musician. Nobody knows them and nobody cares about their music, and they will operate on a striclty local level until they retire. And these people make fun of Keith and Charlie, two of the most important musicians the last 50 yeras. Ridiculous.