While Brian, Mick, and Keith are playing and fleshing out SFTD in its infancy on acoustic guitars, Brian throws out a bluesy chord change a few times. Until then, Mick teaches Brian the basic melody of the song. Brian does nothing but follow what Mick is playing. Then Keith comes in and they're all playing along when Brian throws in, seemingly out of the blue, this chord change which completely spices up the jam. At this point, Mick ceases playing and lets Brian and Keith continue . . . fascinating stuff. Now, more than a few posters on YOUTUBE and other sites have commented how Brian's little chord changes 'defined' the released version of SFTD. Interestingly enough, he doesn't play on the released version. Additionally, Brian seems uninterested during the session yet manages to create something unique. Contrary to popular belief, this One Plus One footage actually reveals Brian's enormous creative talents and how he so easily and spontaneously contributed parts to a song. If this was the case for SFTD, one can only ask how influential he must have been for the entire pre-Beggars catalogue of Stones music. Hell, how influential was Brian on Beggars and Let It Bleed. There's always been the debate about Honky Tonk Woman . . .

With respect, but I think you read too much into that little scene. It is open to many possible contradicting interpretations (who is playing what, and created by who and when, etc.). In any case, seeing some marks of 'genious' there in that jam is perhaps also a bit overstating. Does that "chord change" refer to the riff kind of adding a chord (E-A-E, A-D-A), typical to many Stones and Keith songs and riffs? The thing Nicky Hopkins later does with piano/organ?

As far as I know, the scene does not start from the zero. They had been jamming the tune earlier (if I remember Jagger even refers there what they did with it the day before or something.)

But thanks Neptune for starting a good thread.

- Doxa

Okay, here is the scene:





- Doxa

It's still E D A E with B7 in the chorus. Just a few fills no jazz chords at all.

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Doxa
As far as I know, the scene does not start from the zero. They had been jamming the tune earlier (if I remember Jagger even refers there what they did with it the day before or something.)

The scene indeed does not start from the very beginning and, yes, the Stones had already been working on SFTD from perhaps the previous day. And, yes, the clip certaintly doesn't reveal any genius qualities from Brian. However, this obviously appears to show Brian first learning the song. You can clearly see Mick teaching him the parts of the melody. And, most importantly, you see Brian adding the bluesy chord changes as the jam progresses, all within the span of about three minutes. Point here is that it only takes Brian a couple minutes to add an important component to the jam. It kind of hints at how creative a musician Brian was even at a time when he was supposedly at the ebb of his career with the Stones. Can you imagine if he was truly inspired and interested, how productive he would be?

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neptune

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Doxa
As far as I know, the scene does not start from the zero. They had been jamming the tune earlier (if I remember Jagger even refers there what they did with it the day before or something.)

The scene indeed does not start from the very beginning and, yes, the Stones had already been working on SFTD from perhaps the previous day. And, yes, the clip certaintly doesn't reveal any genius qualities from Brian. However, this obviously appears to show Brian first learning the song. You can clearly see Mick teaching him the parts of the melody. And, most importantly, you see Brian adding the bluesy chord changes as the jam progresses, all within the span of about three minutes. Point here is that it only takes Brian a couple minutes to add an important component to the jam. It kind of hints at how creative a musician Brian was even at a time when he was supposedly at the ebb of his career with the Stones. Can you imagine if he was truly inspired and interested, how productive he would be?

I agree the film does seem to contradict that Brian was "out of it" throughout the recording of beggars.

I don't actually see what part you mean Neptune. Brian adds an A chord and a partial G chord at the turn-around, but this is part of the melody and is also played by Jagger when he adds the Asus4 on the open E tuned guitar. I don't know if its in the movie or not (I have it on tape, it's also where Charlie later makes some mistakes and Jagger shouts "you gotta come in at the other bit!") there's this part where jagger shows the song to everybody and here you already hear the added A as a turn-around.

Mathijs

Brian looks pretty out of it to me! First off,why's the guitarist getting guitar lessons off the singer? Second, about that chord change - it's not exactly ground-breaking stuff, every noodler plays that change over the E chord, and thirdly, why have they built a wall around him in the later clip - Bill, Mick and Keith seem pretty much together at that point. Brian's penned in with his acoustic - coul dbe playing anything as far as we can tell, and we're told they never taped what he did play anyway. If he was still all that good why would they not record his parts, such as they were?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-08 23:16 by Slim Harpo.

But that Keith could play a bit ...

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Slim Harpo
Brian looks pretty out of it to me! First off,why's the guitarist getting guitar lessons off the singer? Second, about that chord change - it's not exactly ground-breaking stuff, every noodler plays that change over the E chord, and thirdly, why have they built a wall around him in the later clip - Bill, Mick and Keith seem pretty much together at that point.

First off, Brian don't look out of it to me. Why is the guitarist getting guitar lessons from the singer, you ask? They're not lessons. Mick is teaching him the song's melody. As for the chord changes, I'm not saying that they're ground-breaking. I'm saying that they spice up the jam session! Lastly, they built up a wall around Brian because he probably isn't interested in what's going on at that point. Miller probably told Brian to go off and play his acoustic part not knowing if his part was going to be recorded or not.

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Mathijs
I don't actually see what part you mean Neptune. Brian adds an A chord and a partial G chord at the turn-around, but this is part of the melody and is also played by Jagger when he adds the Asus4 on the open E tuned guitar. I don't know if its in the movie or not . . .

It's not in the movie.

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neptune

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Mathijs
I don't actually see what part you mean Neptune. Brian adds an A chord and a partial G chord at the turn-around, but this is part of the melody and is also played by Jagger when he adds the Asus4 on the open E tuned guitar. I don't know if its in the movie or not . . .

It's not in the movie.

Are you sure? Aren't there more versions of the film? The audio I am talking about starts with Jagger playing guitar and singing Sympathy in a very lovely ballad kind of way. Jones and Richards join in a couple of minutes later, and 10 minutes later Nicky Hopkins starts to play and Jagger tells him what lines and fills he must remember and play again. Then several versions where Charlie kicks off with his snare, and tries a drum break at the verses. Charlie messes up a couple of times and Jagger then shouts "Charlie, you gotta come on in the other bit. Aw fvck! you know.." The audio continues for another 20 minutes with long jams.

I have had this audio for ages on tape, always assumed it is from the movie and always assumed it is widely available on bootleg.

Maybe someone knows what I am talking about and knows on which boot it can be found.

Mathijs

This is the most ridiculous theory about guitar "genius". Brian is barely strumming along with the most basic, basic chordings. Don't even bring up these bluesy changes, defining the jam. That is just ludicrous. Anyone who plays guitar sees exactly what he is doing, and it is playing a few root chords; badly. Any inflection that is done comes from Keith on the open tuned guitar. Shoot - Jagger does more bluesy variations ..

I need to watch this its been years!

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Palace Revolution 2000
This is the most ridiculous theory about guitar "genius". Brian is barely strumming along with the most basic, basic chordings. Don't even bring up these bluesy changes, defining the jam. That is just ludicrous. Anyone who plays guitar sees exactly what he is doing, and it is playing a few root chords; badly. Any inflection that is done comes from Keith on the open tuned guitar. Shoot - Jagger does more bluesy variations ..

When did I ever say Brian was a guitar genius? Why don't you try reading my actual posts? All I said was that Brian spiced up the jam session with his bluesy chord changes and that it hints at how instinctive of a musician he was and how he may have contributed parts to Stones songs.

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Mathijs
Are you sure? Aren't there more versions of the film? The audio I am talking about starts with Jagger playing guitar and singing Sympathy in a very lovely ballad kind of way. Jones and Richards join in a couple of minutes later, and 10 minutes later Nicky Hopkins starts to play and Jagger tells him what lines and fills he must remember and play again.

Well, I've watched this bit here again and Mick does tell Brian that they played it a certain way before 'when he was singing it', and then Mick adds a little chord. You see it in the film. Then they play again and Keith comes in, and shortly thereafter Brian throws in his reinterpretation of Jagger's blues chord. Brian's chord, however, is different from Jagger's. When Mick observes this, he seems impressed and ceases playing, letting the two guitarists of the band take over. But, yes, perhaps Mick spurs Brian on here in this clip . . .

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neptune

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Palace Revolution 2000
This is the most ridiculous theory about guitar "genius". Brian is barely strumming along with the most basic, basic chordings. Don't even bring up these bluesy changes, defining the jam. That is just ludicrous. Anyone who plays guitar sees exactly what he is doing, and it is playing a few root chords; badly. Any inflection that is done comes from Keith on the open tuned guitar. Shoot - Jagger does more bluesy variations ..

When did I ever say Brian was a guitar genius? Why don't you try reading my actual posts? All I said was that Brian spiced up the jam session with his bluesy chord changes and that it hints at how instinctive of a musician he was and how he may have contributed parts to Stones songs.

Neptune, I agree with you. I'm not a guitar player but that "bluesy chord change" Brian adds is delicious...it really makes the nascent acoustic version swing. Can you imagine the if the Stones had done an 'alternate version" of SFTD just on acoustic guitars with Bill on bass and Charlie on drums and Nicky on Piano? Slower tempo, Brian's chord change thrown in...it would have been fantastic. Better yet, can you imagine if they would do this version in concert (realizing that they're no longer capable of pulling of the "rock" version - as I've written on another thread, it has become caricature)...sort of how they used to do a small acoustic set...and blow people's minds by doing an ACOUSTIC version of Sympathy...adding Brian's chord changes and really slowing it down so Jagger can sing the fantastic lyrics (not talk/shout-sing as he does now)...letting the whole song really breathe and come to life again?

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Turd On The Run
I'm not a guitar player but that "bluesy chord change" Brian adds is delicious...it really makes the nascent acoustic version swing. Can you imagine the if the Stones had done an 'alternate version" of SFTD just on acoustic guitars with Bill on bass and Charlie on drums and Nicky on Piano? Slower tempo, Brian's chord change thrown in...it would have been fantastic.

Finally there's someone here who gets it.

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neptune

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Mathijs
Are you sure? Aren't there more versions of the film? The audio I am talking about starts with Jagger playing guitar and singing Sympathy in a very lovely ballad kind of way. Jones and Richards join in a couple of minutes later, and 10 minutes later Nicky Hopkins starts to play and Jagger tells him what lines and fills he must remember and play again.

Well, I've watched this bit here again and Mick does tell Brian that they played it a certain way before 'when he was singing it', and then Mick adds a little chord. You see it in the film. Then they play again and Keith comes in, and shortly thereafter Brian throws in his reinterpretation of Jagger's blues chord. Brian's chord, however, is different from Jagger's. When Mick observes this, he seems impressed and ceases playing, letting the two guitarists of the band take over. But, yes, perhaps Mick spurs Brian on here in this clip . . .

Well, all I hear is that both Mick and Brian both add a small 2 bar turnaround in A at the end of each 8 bars. Mick adds an open A, Brian an Amajor. I just don't hear any "bluesy chord change".

I start to have the feeling that if Brian would have farted at the turn-around you would see that as a stroke of genius as well...

Mathijs

Is Brian's contribution any worthy or not - we seem to have different view about it - at least it quite remarkable - like Neptune remarked - that Brian is STILL so much involved in the actual process of making the song. I remember how surprised I was when I first saw the movie and of Brian's quite central role in it. I had a thought that Brian was totally out of it by then. But seemingly Mick is at least as much interested in having Brian still around that spends some time jamming the song with Brian, and teaches it to him. Even more: we have to remember that they first had this idea of doing "Sympathy" as an acoustic song - seemingly they thought that Brian would contribute quite a lot in THAT possibble version they were working on - and those very first scenes of the film, in fact, document the guys already not just jamming but already trying to arrange the acoustic version of it. Keith, for example, had a VERY interesting idea of how to interpret it in open tuning (my personal opinion is that the jam really starts to go forward WHEN Keith joins in - THEN some extraordianry things start to happen).

What goes for the infamous later scenes of how 'isolated' and lonely Brian was - he was in his own box and and that his guitar would not to be heard in the final mix are more or less based on historical hindsight (the reason of neglecting Brian's part was not parhps that his delivery was so bad, but that the final production did not need any acoustic guitar anymore - the concept of the song has changed so radically). We tend to see too much on it now - if Brian would have never eft the band we most likely would not seen anything special in those scenes. For example, if Bill Wyman would have left the band in 1969, we would easily 'see' the symptoms in ONE PLUS ONE now - for example, how Keith had took over his bass position, and he was humiliated by reduced to play those bloody maracas (and how sad and bored he looks like while playing them...).

- Doxa

P.S. Even though Mathijs is famous here for his anti-Brian stance, I think he also has admitted, like Jimmy Miller has, that Brian is "all over BEGGARS BANQUET". I think those very scenes of ONE PLUS ONE do support this interpretation; even though Brian's contribution cannot be heard in the final recording, his spirit and blues-touches were much involved in the process of creating the song.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-10 12:27 by Doxa.

...this brings out one question ,..

my favortite part starts at 3:50 , Keith playing the Les Pual sitting on the floor.

Anyone can figure out if Keith is still in open E tuning or is this already standard tuning ??

thanks

I was also surprised, when seeing the film, to see brian included in learning the song. Do you think he might have only shown up at the studio because Godard was filming? mick's patience in showing brian the chords (which shouldn't even be necessary--you can just listen to what he plays once and know what they are) might also be for the benefit of the film, before the band found some inspiration and actually got wrapped up in making the song.

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cc
I was also surprised, when seeing the film, to see brian included in learning the song. Do you think he might have only shown up at the studio because Godard was filming? mick's patience in showing brian the chords (which shouldn't even be necessary--you can just listen to what he plays once and know what they are) might also be for the benefit of the film, before the band found some inspiration and actually got wrapped up in making the song.

Yeah, that is true. You never know how authentic the things are or how much they are manufactured to please the camera. I think the Stones have always been very conscious of how they are represented. I mean, they could easily 'fool' Godard, too (and like letting him to film only the moments that were good for them). I don't know how much the band actually was involved in controlling the footage. For example, I think the most interesting moments in the creation of the song are not really captured: like the decision to try the samba rhythm, and things like that. All we see is just the band in the middle of some take - not how they got there in the first place. In fact, the film does not capture the actual creation of the song at all but just documents some of 'random' (if they are) stages middle of doing it. It doesn't 'explain' very much at all.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-10 16:43 by Doxa.

Something to take note of...

We don't hear Brian's acoustic during the majority of the film because we are not hearing what is being recorded. What we hear is via the film crews mic's, thus you wouldn't hear Brian's acoustic when the full band is playing in the same room. We can't tell whether or not Brian is being recorded once they move on from the initial Mick/Keith/Brian play through.

However, there is a quick snippet of an earlier version which gets played when Mick is overdubbing his vocal, we hear Keith's standard tuned double stop electric guitar intro and at the same time there is an acoustic being played... That could be the earlier version where Keith is sitting on the floor/brian is in the make shift booth.

Why would they put a wall around Brian? There's a simple practical answer for that. Brian is playing acoiustic guitar, in order to record him they would have to set up some kind of isolation or else the mic would pick up all the other instruments.

Finally, if they were recording Brian, I personally think they were and that they probably did in most cases incase Brian played well, but... during the recordings Brian moves about during actual takes, this would result in an very uneven recording of his acoustic guitar, so even if he played well enough, this on/off mic movements would probably nessesitate mixing his part out due to the up and down nature of his recorded signal.

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Wolfgang
...this brings out one question ,..

my favortite part starts at 3:50 , Keith playing the Les Pual sitting on the floor.

Anyone can figure out if Keith is still in open E tuning or is this already standard tuning ??

thanks

The order of the clips has been changed from how they appear in the film in the clip linked to by doxa, but in that clip as posted Keith is tuned to open E at 3.50.

In the actual film Keith's LPC is tuned to open E and he's playing through a Vox Supreme until he stands up and asks to move to the 'smaller Vox''. At this point Keith retunes to standard and plays some solo licks etc. From then on he is in standard tuning and playing through the Vox AC30.

Keith is once again tuned to open E and still going through the Vox AC30(behind the booth) for the unnamed track we see them working on after the sympathy sessions.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-10 18:06 by His Majesty.

This thread is a fuss about nothing, but in reply to posts by Mathijs and Neptune...

Mick is tuned to standard tuning. He plays standard bar chords, but allows the open high B and E strings(sometimes justr the high E) to ring out, Brian is doing the same thing.

Mick doesn't play the A blues lick chord thing at any time, that lick doesn't get played until Brian plays it. Brian plays it when the progression has resolved to the E. Keith picks it up and plays it too, but at an earlier point in the progression(from the A chord to the E) and in the open tuning way.

Keith plays the exact same lick as Brian on acoustic guitar during The Lantern from TSMR.

Anyway, what Brian throws in hardly warrants being singled out and it is a bit of a joke to use it as an indication of his muscal talents, Brian's musicianship was/is worth much more than that!

It's a bog standrd lick thrown in to a bog standrd chord progression.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-10 18:50 by His Majesty.

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Doxa
For example, I think the most interesting moments in the creation of the song are not really captured: like the decision to try the samba rhythm, and things like that. All we see is just the band in the middle of some take - not how they got there in the first place. In fact, the film does not capture the actual creation of the song at all but just documents some of 'random' (if they are) stages middle of doing it. It doesn't 'explain' very much at all.

right. You should re-post this paragraph whenever the periodic complaints about the film are made here by fans who don't understand that, unfortunately for this end, it's not meant to be a Stones documentary (an understandable mistake when it's presented as Sympathy for the Devil, not One Plus One).

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Doxa

P.S. Even though Mathijs is famous here for his anti-Brian stance, I think he also has admitted, like Jimmy Miller has, that Brian is "all over BEGGARS BANQUET". I think those very scenes of ONE PLUS ONE do support this interpretation; even though Brian's contribution cannot be heard in the final recording, his spirit and blues-touches were much involved in the process of creating the song.

Just for the record: I do NOT have a "anti-Brian stance"! I think Brian was instrumental in the development of the Stones, and he has laid down many great parts. I do think though that he was a mediocre (technical) musician, and I loath all this worshipping, all these claims about how Brian was the true genius and how he really wrote all those classic Rolling Stones songs.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-11 01:20 by Mathijs.

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His Majesty
Mick is tuned to standard tuning. He plays standard bar chords, but allows the open high B and E strings(sometimes justr the high E) to ring out, Brian is doing the same thing.

Mick doesn't play the A blues lick chord thing at any time, that lick doesn't get played until Brian plays it. Brian plays it when the progression has resolved to the E. Keith picks it up and plays it too, but at an earlier point in the progression(from the A chord to the E) and in the open tuning way.

I refered to the (apperently) outtakes where Mick shows the band the song on his own. On this ballad version it sounds like he plays open E -he seems to fret only the E and A fret on the 12th, 10th and 5th fret. On this version Jagger also plays the A chord in the turn-around.

I have listened again and again to this tape as it was my introduction to open E some 2o years ago. This is my recollection, and of course I stand corrected if Jagger is in standard tuning.

But the real question seems to be: does NO ONE knows the outtakes I am talking about? The tape I had was recorded from a vinyl boot, and it MUST be widely known!

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Doxa

P.S. Even though Mathijs is famous here for his anti-Brian stance, I think he also has admitted, like Jimmy Miller has, that Brian is "all over BEGGARS BANQUET". I think those very scenes of ONE PLUS ONE do support this interpretation; even though Brian's contribution cannot be heard in the final recording, his spirit and blues-touches were much involved in the process of creating the song.

Just for the record: I do NOT have a "anti-Brian stance"! I think Brian was instrumental in the development of the Stones, and he has laid down many great parts. I do think though that he was a mediocre (technical) musician, and I loath all this worshipping, all these claims about how Brian was the true genius and how he really wrote all those classic Rolling Stones songs.

Mathijs

I believe Brian Jones was one of the best English slide guitar players in the 60's..