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I think that is getting into subdivision of the actual beat. Sounds like you are referring to simple and compound meters. Where a 4/4 beat can be counted either one-and-two-and-three...(simple), or one-and-a-two-and-a-three-and-a-...(compound).
I can't say that this is what SimonV is talking about; but the process of counting a 4 tune in those two different ways involves this.
Yes,13,14,16 bars can be heard,12 bar is most common though.
I wonder who came up with this on LLR? I bet Brian..
Listen to the next one,you can here the melody "asking" for going back to the beginning in bar 11 and 12.
Blues for Alice,Parker,the most famous "common" 12 bar blues.I bet Charlie can sing along:
No, it's copied from Howlin' Wolf, he used the 2 bar turn-around to build up tension. He took 2, 4, or 8 bars, whatever he felt like. The band waited for his sign.
Mathijs
true that....wolf played around with time sigs on many of his tunes....hooker and lightning practically made a career out of this practice....
Ok,so in fact the Stones copied Howlin'Wolf's sign? Or did they think for themselves?
no, triplets are 3 notes spaced across 1 or 2 beats. The hits you mark in "Dear Doctor" are the downbeats ("1"s) of separate measures of 3 beats, at least as I would count them. This is the one song that's been mentioned that I would agree is not in or 4 or 8 time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-01-26 21:54 by Palace Revolution 2000.
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Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 25, 2009 22:46
Quote
ryanpowQuote
SimonV
Well that's not entirely fair. For example, you can count any 4/4 song in groups of four triplets (making it 12/8). That's just a matter of notation. The only interesting thing is to know is if there's any songs in triple meter..
what is meant by tripple meter?
I think that is getting into subdivision of the actual beat. Sounds like you are referring to simple and compound meters. Where a 4/4 beat can be counted either one-and-two-and-three...(simple), or one-and-a-two-and-a-three-and-a-...(compound).
I can't say that this is what SimonV is talking about; but the process of counting a 4 tune in those two different ways involves this.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
6853
()
Date: January 25, 2009 22:47
little red rooster....
12 bar blues with 2 extra
12 bar blues with 2 extra
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 25, 2009 23:08
Yeah "Rooster" is mentioned earlier. What is even crazier about LRR is that on the original version each go around is different.
On 1st verse it is the 12bar blues plus 2 xtra bars ;one in the middle, one as a tag.
In the 2nd verse it is a 13 bar blues.
But the 3rd is best, because on top of the xtra bars they add two long bars of 6/8 in the beginning. It's like Brian's slide riff, has it's own space.
On 1st verse it is the 12bar blues plus 2 xtra bars ;one in the middle, one as a tag.
In the 2nd verse it is a 13 bar blues.
But the 3rd is best, because on top of the xtra bars they add two long bars of 6/8 in the beginning. It's like Brian's slide riff, has it's own space.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: January 25, 2009 23:27
Funny indeed,13 bars.I wonder who came up with that.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: January 25, 2009 23:30
Black Limo simply is a 4/4 with a 2 bar turn-around, very common in swing, jazz and blues music.
Mathijs
Mathijs
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: January 25, 2009 23:46
Quote
Mathijs
Black Limo simply is a 4/4 with a 2 bar turn-around, very common in swing, jazz and blues music.
Mathijs
Yes,13,14,16 bars can be heard,12 bar is most common though.
I wonder who came up with this on LLR? I bet Brian..
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
SimonV
()
Date: January 25, 2009 23:55
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000Quote
ryanpowQuote
SimonV
Well that's not entirely fair. For example, you can count any 4/4 song in groups of four triplets (making it 12/8). That's just a matter of notation. The only interesting thing is to know is if there's any songs in triple meter..
what is meant by tripple meter?
Well any metre that is divided in 3 beats.. like 3/4 and 3/8.
Simon
myspace.com/koningsimon
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 25, 2009 23:58
Black Limos is actually not straight up. It is in 4/4, like just about any Stonesgroove, but it has a bar of 6 right in the middle, which gives it that stutter. Not sure what a 2-bar turnaround is, and where it's so common.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: January 26, 2009 00:16
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Black Limos is actually not straight up. It is in 4/4, like just about any Stonesgroove, but it has a bar of 6 right in the middle, which gives it that stutter. Not sure what a 2-bar turnaround is, and where it's so common.
Listen to the next one,you can here the melody "asking" for going back to the beginning in bar 11 and 12.
Blues for Alice,Parker,the most famous "common" 12 bar blues.I bet Charlie can sing along:
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 26, 2009 00:34
You are talking about that little part where it quiets down just a bit before starting over? That is really well put: the melody "askin" to go back.
Who is that guy playing? Is that you Amsterdamned?
Who is that guy playing? Is that you Amsterdamned?
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: January 26, 2009 00:54
Quote
AmsterdamnedQuote
Mathijs
Black Limo simply is a 4/4 with a 2 bar turn-around, very common in swing, jazz and blues music.
Mathijs
Yes,13,14,16 bars can be heard,12 bar is most common though.
I wonder who came up with this on LLR? I bet Brian..
No, it's copied from Howlin' Wolf, he used the 2 bar turn-around to build up tension. He took 2, 4, or 8 bars, whatever he felt like. The band waited for his sign.
Mathijs
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
T&A
()
Date: January 26, 2009 00:57
Quote
MathijsQuote
AmsterdamnedQuote
Mathijs
Black Limo simply is a 4/4 with a 2 bar turn-around, very common in swing, jazz and blues music.
Mathijs
Yes,13,14,16 bars can be heard,12 bar is most common though.
I wonder who came up with this on LLR? I bet Brian..
No, it's copied from Howlin' Wolf, he used the 2 bar turn-around to build up tension. He took 2, 4, or 8 bars, whatever he felt like. The band waited for his sign.
Mathijs
true that....wolf played around with time sigs on many of his tunes....hooker and lightning practically made a career out of this practice....
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 26, 2009 01:00
What occurs on Black Limos and LRR is not the same thing.
LRR is the Stones doing a Blues number in the tradition on the old masters. You go and play it, and change whenever it feels right. So there is no fixed structure. Obviously when you are taking that song into a stadium with guest guitarists you have to conform to some kind of structure and agree on something.
Black Limos does not have anything but 2 xtra beats in there. BL is a differently structured Blues anyway.
LRR is the Stones doing a Blues number in the tradition on the old masters. You go and play it, and change whenever it feels right. So there is no fixed structure. Obviously when you are taking that song into a stadium with guest guitarists you have to conform to some kind of structure and agree on something.
Black Limos does not have anything but 2 xtra beats in there. BL is a differently structured Blues anyway.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: January 26, 2009 11:18
Quote
T&AQuote
MathijsQuote
AmsterdamnedQuote
Mathijs
Black Limo simply is a 4/4 with a 2 bar turn-around, very common in swing, jazz and blues music.
Mathijs
Yes,13,14,16 bars can be heard,12 bar is most common though.
I wonder who came up with this on LLR? I bet Brian..
No, it's copied from Howlin' Wolf, he used the 2 bar turn-around to build up tension. He took 2, 4, or 8 bars, whatever he felt like. The band waited for his sign.
Mathijs
true that....wolf played around with time sigs on many of his tunes....hooker and lightning practically made a career out of this practice....
Ok,so in fact the Stones copied Howlin'Wolf's sign? Or did they think for themselves?
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 26, 2009 20:34
The track is full of syncopation, but anyway it's still in 4 4 whatever way you look at it.
The satanic sessions box set gives a good insight in to how they came to the interesting beats on the finished version.
The satanic sessions box set gives a good insight in to how they came to the interesting beats on the finished version.
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Re "2000 Man" Tate has a really good point here. He seems fully aware of the different speed sections. He is only talking about the slow part; ie the verse. And in the verse Charlie does only hit the snare on every 6th 8-beat. It is tricky because technically he is playing in 4/4, just hitting the snare in an unusual place. It's really interesting. because in the little stops at the pause of a verse he adds a little hiccup on beats; to kind of wrap it up.
But what is even more interesting IMO is what he then does in the fast part. Since it does feel very straight and forward there, one assumes that he goes to a regular beat. But what his right hand is doing on the HiHat and then on the Ride is odd; he kind of keeps the 'idea' on the triplets going; just with the right hand.
This is why Charlie is deceptive; he is quite good.
There are a whole lot of types of syncopation, but none really apply here.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
schillid
()
Date: January 26, 2009 20:42
"Dear Doctor" is in triplets, no?
oh help me please doctor I'm damaged
oh help me please doctor I'm damaged
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 26, 2009 21:12
Course there's syncopation; left and right. Rock'n roll would not be what it is w/o it. But sycnopation did not apply as the answer to Tate's issue.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 26, 2009 21:23
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Course there's syncopation; left and right. Rock'n roll would not be what it is w/o it. But sycnopation did not apply as the answer to Tate's issue.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: January 26, 2009 21:31
Quote
schillid
"Dear Doctor" is in triplets, no?
oh help me please doctor I'm damaged
no, triplets are 3 notes spaced across 1 or 2 beats. The hits you mark in "Dear Doctor" are the downbeats ("1"s) of separate measures of 3 beats, at least as I would count them. This is the one song that's been mentioned that I would agree is not in or 4 or 8 time.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: January 26, 2009 21:46
I'm not sure but I've never known any songwriters in rock'n'roll that say "I'm gonna write THIS one in 13/8 time."
It's just the tune, how it rolls, and that's that. I dunno about there always being a 1234 but I'm sure there can be if that's how you feel it. All of the playing and recording I've done not one time signature has ever been mentioned. I have no idea what the time sigs are - they are just songs.
That extra bit you're talking about in Black Limo is typical of blues songs - to hold it a bit longer to upset the count. It keeps things interesting as well as determines what someone is or is not going to do. When there is tension like that it's way more interesting to me.
It's just the tune, how it rolls, and that's that. I dunno about there always being a 1234 but I'm sure there can be if that's how you feel it. All of the playing and recording I've done not one time signature has ever been mentioned. I have no idea what the time sigs are - they are just songs.
That extra bit you're talking about in Black Limo is typical of blues songs - to hold it a bit longer to upset the count. It keeps things interesting as well as determines what someone is or is not going to do. When there is tension like that it's way more interesting to me.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 26, 2009 21:53
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Palace Revolution 2000
Course there's syncopation; left and right. Rock'n roll would not be what it is w/o it. But sycnopation did not apply as the answer to Tate's issue.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-01-26 21:54 by Palace Revolution 2000.
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
schillid
()
Date: January 26, 2009 21:55
OT...
Did ya ever notice that the Beatles' "All You Need Is Love"
is in 7/4 ?
Did ya ever notice that the Beatles' "All You Need Is Love"
is in 7/4 ?
Re: Songs played by The stones that aren't in 4/4 time.
Posted by:
texas fan
()
Date: January 27, 2009 00:17
very interesting thread....
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