I just replied to a post of the Toronto club show from 2002 in which the poster (Zagalo) implied that the version of "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" recorded at this concert might have been the first time the song was ever played live. Information in Bill Wyman's book "Rolling With The Stones" indicates that the song was played live in 1971 and there's further information in the book "According To The Rolling Stones" that the song had been played live before. But this made me think about something. In Wyman's book, he also claims that "Let It Bleed" was played live on the 1970 European tour and to my knowledge, this is undocumented. I was of the opinion, like alot of people, that "Let It Bleed" wasn't played live until the '81 American Tour. Wyman also states that "Some Girls", "Memory Motel", "Get Off Of My Cloud", and "It's Only Rock and Roll" were played on the '78 American tour, but I've never heard or seen any documentation of this. Also, Wyman says that the Stones played "Johnny B. Goode" on the '72 and '78 American tours and at Keith's '79 CNIB concert in Canada. I have the second show from that evening and it's "Let It Rock" that the Stones play, not "Johnny B. Goode". I know many journalists have mistaken other Berry songs such as "Bye Bye Johnny" for "Johnny B. Goode." Anybody else notice this stuff? What do you all think? Were these songs really played?

Tumblin_Dice, there's so many mistakes in Bill's book, that it's quite amazing...especially in the setlist-section. So, please don't give Bill's info any more thoughts. It's still a very nice book, tho'.

Erik, just out of curiousity, how do you know which parts are mistakes and which are not?

I mean I wouldn't think much about it if it wasn't Bill Wyman, who was ACTUALLY THERE unlike the rest of us. And Wyman kept a diary so I do tend to pay more attention to him than just some writer writing a book about the band. That doesn't mean he can't make a mistake but the thing is, he was there......we weren't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 00:17 by Tumblin_Dice_07.

It's well-known which songs they played at their concerts from 1969 untill now. There's audience recordings of 90% of the shows. And news-reports. There's only a few shows left, that we don't know any details from. Some 1971 shows, San Antonio 75 etc.
I read an interview with Keith from 74, where he claimed they did Winter live in 73. Of course they didn't. A funny interview in IORR from 98...Mick is being asked what he thought of Keith doing All ABout You. He answered "Keith never did that song live". THe interviewer insisted...but Mick refused.
Bill was there, allright, but his info is incorrect regardless. Same goes for some of the tourdates/venues he has listed.
RocksOff is an excellent reference for setlists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 01:09 by Erik_Snow.

Right.......I've noticed Mick saying things in concert like "here's one from Black and Blue" and then they'll play "Heartbreaker" which is from Goat's Head Soup. But at the same time, we don't know for sure that "Let It Bleed" was never played on the '70 European tour. It's my guess that it wasn't though. I also think that Bill probably used some press clippings to help him with some of those setlists because it was common for the press to get the Berry songs confused. And as far as the '78 tour is concerned, my guess is that Bill wrote that some of those songs were performed because he remembered rehearsing them as they were all done at the Woodstock rehearsals for that tour. That's my guess but I do give Bill the benefit of a doubt because regardless of what we know, we weren't there and I think neither you or I were even alive at the time. Who knows.....some of it may be true.....

You're right about Wyman, mixing up the rehearsals from 78 with the real concerts. But ALL shows from 78 exists on tape. There's NO doubt which songs were played.
Only 3 shows from 1970 doesn't circulate, but the eyewitnesses were there. I'm telling you, those Wyman setlists are bullshit.
There were 1000s of people at those shows, not only Bill Wyman...
What does it matter what he writes?
If you asked Bill today which songs they did in 1970, he'd probably look in his papers, and give you a different list from what's written in that Rolling with The Stones book.

well that may be true........what do you mean by "what does it matter what he writes?"

I mean, "why should we re-consider the things we know, for a fact, just because Bill Wyman writes it?".
And think about the songs they played, but he forget to mention...it surely doesn't mean that they weren't played.
I'm sure it's harder for Stones to remember that many details, as they were in the middle of the action while it happened..lotsa stress and stuff, than it is for us fans..who makes lists over stuff, and are really interested in those things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 03:31 by Erik_Snow.

ok this is the root of what I'm saying.........you denounce Wyman's information as "bullshit" and say that you know for a "fact" that these songs were not played. I agree that they PROBABLY weren't played and that Wyman is PROBABLY wrong about alot of that stuff. Some songs you probably can prove were not played on those particular tours. But I think when a member of the band says something contradictory to information that we always believed, then yeah, its' worth reconsidering. I don't think you should neccessarily believe it just because Bill wrote it.

Really I agree with you about what was and was not played, its' just that you speak to the best of your knowledge and then call it a fact. I can say that "Let It Bleed" was not played on the 1970 European tour to the best of my knowledge, but that's all I can say and really, that's all anybody can say.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 03:56 by Tumblin_Dice_07.

Of course some of Bill's setlists are bullshit. I am stating/confirming that it is bullshit.
And I don't think that info is anything to pay attention too at all, because there's so many mistakes. We got brilliant books about those subjects, and above all, tapes from the shows. I don't even think Bill cares about having details like that correct.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 04:02 by Erik_Snow.

maybe he doesn't Erik....I dont think you understand my point anyway. You stated your opinion and/or knowledge on the subject.......you just stated it as if it was a fact.

Tumblin_Dice_07 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Really I agree with you about what was and was not
> played, its' just that you speak to the best of
> your knowledge and then call it a fact. I can say
> that "Let It Bleed" was not played on the 1970
> European tour to the best of my knowledge, but
> that's all I can say and really, that's all
> anybody can say.

My point is that there's no reason to consider that option, because we and I can prove terrible mistakes elsewhere in his writings.
I can't say 100% sure that LIB wasn't done in 1970, only 99,9% sure.
But I'm 100% sure of other mistakes. Why are we discussing that?
I really don't see what you are aiming for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 04:27 by Erik_Snow.

Given that Bill was involved in other exploits @ this time, I'm sure that his mistakes are due to memory lapses rather than pure bullshit.

I have personal experience of failed memory. I first saw the Stones on Ready Staedy Go in Feb 1964. One of the songs they did was Not Fade Away, which was their latest single. Up until a couple of years ago I swore that another song they did on the show was 'Good Times, Bad Times', which is incorrect, it didn't show up till later so they couldn't have done it. 30-40 years after the fact I'm not so concerned with who got it right or wrong.

Of course it wasn't Johnny B Goode they did in '72, it was Bye Bye Johnny off their first ep. Available, amongst other places, on the Ladies & Gentlemen soundtrack

talking about setlists, did Mick Taylor played with the Stones in 1981, on december 14 or 15?
The information about is contradictory...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 05:18 by buffalo 81.

if Bill was relying on press clippings (which seems plausible enough),
maybe part of the 1970 Let It Bleed mystery is that the track list on the album cover is wrong -
Gimmie Shelter is identified as Let It Bleed, and plenty of journalists wouldn't know the difference now
let alone in 1970 when the album was still very fresh.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if Bill was relying on press clippings (which
> seems plausible enough),
> maybe part of the 1970 Let It Bleed mystery is
> that the track list on the album cover is wrong -
>
> Gimmie Shelter is identified as Let It Bleed, and
> plenty of journalists wouldn't know the difference
> now
> let alone in 1970 when the album was still very
> fresh.


What exactly is with the back cover of LIB? Why is it like that?

I told you what I was aiming at Erik. You stated your opinion and knowledge on this subject as if it was a fact, and it's not fact and you admitted that in your last post when you said you couldn't be 100% sure of these songs not being played. That's the point and that's why I pursued this rediculous discussion. If there were COMPLETE tapes of every show the band ever did in circulation, then you could prove whether or not Wyman's setlists are, as you say "bullshit"....

buffalo 81.....on the subject of the Kansas City show with Mick Taylor......as far as I know, Taylor played with them on 12/14/81.

>> What exactly is with the back cover of LIB? Why is it like that? <<

umm ... because the drugs were better back then?
no wait - poor proofreading of album covers is still a problem, so that can't be it.
i don't know, nor have i ever heard anyone connected with the album comment on it.

Tumblin_Dice_07 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I told you what I was aiming at Erik. You stated
> your opinion and knowledge on this subject as if
> it was a fact, and it's not fact and you admitted
> that in your last post when you said you couldn't
> be 100% sure of these songs not being played.
> That's the point and that's why I pursued this
> rediculous discussion. If there were COMPLETE
> tapes of every show the band ever did in
> circulation, then you could prove whether or not
> Wyman's setlists are, as you say "bullshit"....


You're wrong if you think all my posts here is about "if there could be songs performed in the 70s that we don't know about".
I'm discussing Bill Wyman's credibility. There's NO reason to re-consider setlists because of Wyman's list. Your accusations about me pretending to know what I don't know, is pointless, 'cos it was never a subject. For me at least.
Coming from a different source I could believe that for instance Soul Survivor was played in Chicago 1972. That's what I meant with "I can't see what you're aiming at". You're aiming at a target that isn't there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-13 14:36 by Erik_Snow.

Nice to see you, with sssoul!

thanks Erik honey - always good to see your typeface! :E

Interesting post, I take a lot of things I read with a pinch of salt if it is not that important(to me that is). I have read a lot of setlists from a lot of sources and one is incorrect for sure and that is the second show in Perth Feb. 1965. When I was travelling to Perth to see the Stones I was desperately hoping they would play Empty Heart, and they DID. I dont know about the 1st and 3rd show but they did play it at my show. That concert is burned indelibly in my brain.Its not mentioned in Bills book or any book that I can find. But I was there.

whiskey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting post, I take a lot of things I read
> with a pinch of salt if it is not that
> important(to me that is). I have read a lot of
> setlists from a lot of sources and one is
> incorrect for sure and that is the second show in
> Perth Feb. 1965. When I was travelling to Perth to
> see the Stones I was desperately hoping they would
> play Empty Heart, and they DID. I dont know about
> the 1st and 3rd show but they did play it at my
> show. That concert is burned indelibly in my
> brain.Its not mentioned in Bills book or any book
> that I can find. But I was there.
oh god! why i born on 74!!!