Buy/Sell/Trade :
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POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 from February 25, 1995 are digital clones of P25L 25031 – P25L 25050 series. I.e. so called ‘MFSL’. These do not have black and red banner DIGITALLY REMASTERED FROM ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDINGS in the bottom of the cover.
Transitional POCD from 1991 POCD-1056, POCD-1057 (i.e. both Big Hits in US configuration) are old ABKCO, i.e. originated from 1986 ABKCO mastering
Additional POCD from 1995 (complimentary to POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 series): POCD-1936 (England’s Newest Hitmkers), POCD-1937 (Aftermath US), POCD-1931, POCD-1932 (both Big Hits in US configuration, re-issue of POCD-1056, POCD-1057) and POCD-1938/40 (The Singles Collection – The London Years) are old ABKCO
Late POCD 1960 – POCD 1975/6 from December 3, 1997 – US based ABKCO catalog with old ABKCO mastering.
All those additional, transitional and late POCD CDs have black and red banner DIGITALLY REMASTERED FROM ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDINGS in the bottom of the cover.
The Singles Collection – The London Years, big 12” boxes P69L 50006/8 (November 1, 1989) and POCD-9501/3 (March 25, 1995) are clones to European [London 820 900-2]. The first one came with West German PDO-made discs, the second with PMDC-made. They came with ABKCO mastering.
December’s Children [P25L 2036, POCD 1916] is all mono, like ABKCO transfer. West German disc [London 820 135-2] has two tracks in wide stereo.
Beggars Banquet P33L 25021 and very early pressings of P25L 25043 is slightly weirdly mastered (probably tweaked on site) with intro to Prodigal Son cut off. Late pressings of P25L 25043 and POCD-1923 have intro to Prodigal Son restored. They just copy/pasted the version of the initial West German transfer [used for P33L 50002] into weirdly mastered tape as a replacement.
Tracks 1, 3-6, 8, 9 (PIB long version): MONO (well, not 100% pure digital, but slightly ‘unbalanced’ mono)
Track 2: STEREO intro + MONO body (improper fold of short stereo version)
Track 7: Electronically Reproduced Stereo
Tracks 10-12: STEREO
Track 01-Time Is On My Side is Chess Studio guitar intro version
And to make the things more interesting – some of those French discs came with back covers that state ‘Made in West Germany’ and all back covers carry a note ‘ANALOGUE TO DIGITAL MASTERING BY MOBILE FIDELITY SOUND’.
Discs with so called ‘MFSL’ transfer were out from the market in 1994 (or very early 1995) in Europe and in 1997 in Japan. Some of discs that originated from ‘MFSL’ transfer were on the market in South America (Made in Brazil) in the late 90’s too. But that story is too hazy because some Brazilian discs with 820 xxx-2 catalog number came with old ABKCO mastering while the others with ‘MFSL’. It is a mess. Fortunately, Brazilian discs are not easy to get reasonable priced, at least in my woods. And those that I had in hands had very poor quality booklets.
[www.lukpac.org]
Unfortunately, that FAQ is out of date and not error free. It was acknowledged by Luke on Steve Hoffman’s music forum that it needs revisions and corrections, but they did not get there yet.
.
POCD-1057
Left Right
Peak Value: -1.39 dB --- -1.18 dB
Avg RMS: -15.63 dB --- -15.36 dB
DR channel: 11.06 dB --- 11.14 dB
POCD-1970
Left Right
Peak Value: -1.39 dB --- -1.18 dB
Avg RMS: -15.63 dB --- -15.37 dB
DR channel: 10.83 dB --- 10.75 dB
As you see there is 0.21dB difference in peak values and ~0.3dB difference in RMS for Left and Right channels. This is not good mono, right channel is louder. Also, peak values are the same for both discs, but RMS is a bit (0.01d
different for Right channel. I do not know the reason for that – both discs were pressed by Memory Tech Inc. Most probably, this is caused by different pre-sets for amplifiers or LBR in 1991 and 1997 or some production bug. I believe, ‘minus infinity’ (i.e. total silence) was pre-set a bit different for those discs. But judging waveforms and numbers both tracks originated from the same (very inferior) A/D transfer. Otherwise, the tracks were ripped with different EAC (or whatever software) settings.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-13 18:58 by ironbelly.
Your knowledge is amazing. I'll have to read this over a few times before I fully comprehend.
As far as seeing the difference, I prefer the image of the sound waves to comprehend better.
My main question is, how many different mixes/masterings are there? It really gets complicated after these CDs. Then there were mor releases.
How do you analyze the tracks to get the information? I'd love to have a report of every Paint It Black to see how many different versions of Paint It Black there are.
After 2002 were all of the Abkco catalog the same 2002 masters? Was every release between 1986-2002 the 1986 masters? I guess we'd have to look at each release to know.
Paint It Black like other songs (She's A Rainbow/2000 Light Years) were re-released as singles several times. I wonder was it the same mix/masters or did we get something a bit different?
PIB stereo, West German, ‘MFSL’ initial. CD pressed from glass master 01 *
PIB stereo, West German, ‘MSFL’ phase inverted and level shifted. CD pressed from glass master 03 *. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
PIB stereo, Japanese. Initial ‘MSFL’ with some modifications. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
PIB stereo. ABKCO 2002 A/D transfer.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1986 A/D transfer.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1986 A/D transfer. Residual signal after channel subtraction. Weird and screwed mastering. Time scale (horizontal) is full track 3.44. Residual signal ~-32dB, distorted and shifted. Those drifts from (to) 'minus infinity' in the beginning (at the end) of the track are recognized as stereo phasing by the software. This one is the worst A/D transfer from all.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1989/90 A/D transfer.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1989/90 A/D transfer. Residual signal after channel subtraction. An example of ‘unbalanced mono’. Time scale (horizontal) is full track 3.44. Residual signal is ~-24dB. You can play that one. It will be very quite mono track.
PIB mono. ABKCO 2002 A/D transfer.
PIB mono. ABKCO 2002 A/D transfer. Residual signal after channel subtraction.Time scale (horizontal) is full track 3.44. Mind that ‘residual’ is on the level of -90 - -80dB. This is the actual ‘silence’ level (or tape hiss, if you wish).
1. So called ‘MFSL’ stereo, short version
1a. West German initial stereo
1b. West German stereo with fade. Phase inverted, level shifted. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
1c. Japanese stereo. Equivalent to 1a, but with level shift and different EQ. Apparently, analog dupe (but different from 1b) tape was used.
2. ‘MSFL-alike’ Japanese stereo on Big Hits (High Tide and Green Grass) UK version. From unknown source. Either heavily processed and phase inverted ‘MSFL’ transfer 1a or something made locally in Japan for that compilation.
3. ABKCO 1986 ‘mono’, long version. Totally screwed A/D transfer and weird mastering. On Aftermath (US version) and Big Hits Vol. 2 (US version) CDs no matter country of origin. Also, on initial Hot Rocks 1964-1971 2CD West Germany for US.
4. ABCKO 1989/1990 ‘mono’, long version. Slightly ‘unbalanced’ mono. All Hot Rocks 1964-1971 CDs from 1990 till 2002, no matter country of origin and on The Singles Collection – The London Years till 2002.
Versions 3 and 4, apparently, have several slightly different variants (level/volume shifted) depending on the plant and country of manufacturing.
5. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Short stereo.
6. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Long mono.
Apparently, all 2002-2016 versions issued on CD and HD are based on transfers 5 and 6. Some fancy Japanese SHM limited editions could possibly have slight level/volume shift.
7. Guitar Hero extended stereo mix from unknown source.
8. 2016 short mono mix for the box In Mono based on version 6 with slight EQ and level shift. Fade at 3.22.
This is it. I do not have all the CDs from different pressings and different countries to track down tiny details of particular ‘production mastering’.
Look, they have initial A/D transfer. In old times they made a DAT (Digital Audio Tape) dupe copy and sent it to the factory for production. In theory, DAT tape is a clone of the initial mastering. On the factory, however, they could possibly made slight adjustments to fit their equipment (or there were some pre-sets that were not 100% identical to those in the mastering lab). As a result, you are getting a mastering based on the same A/D transfer, but level/volume shifted, or phase inverted or something else (like extra pause between the tracks or EQ adjustments for Japanese taste). The CD will sound about the same, but not exactly. If you do not have all pressings from all countries, you cannot be sure about the exact number of ‘production mastering’ variations. In some cases, there are no differences. I the others – there are some. For example, Hot Rocks 1964-1971 based on UK [London 820 140-2] A/D transfer has different peak levels for French [London 820 141-2], Australian [London 820 140-2] (in fact, in Australia they also swapped right<->left channels for stereo tracks), German [ABKCO 844 475-2] and late US Disctronics [66672]. In any case, badly transferred and weirdly produces ABKCO 1986 will sound bad no matter what you do. How many tiny variations on the level of ~0.1-0.2 dB volume are there? I do not know.
Exact Audio Copy (EAC). This one has option to analyze audio files but in wav format only (Tools->Process WAV -> open file -> choose different options). You can get wave forms and spectra. Well, some information about peaks too. This one is very basic.
Foobar 2000 player with Dynamic Range Meter plugin. This will return numbers only. Load track, right click on it, select Dynamic Range Meter from drop menu. It will provide a table on screen and write foo_dr txt file in the folder with Peak level, RMS and Dynamic range. It works in the 1st approximation as a tool for mastering analysis. If those numbers are the same – the mastering is the same. Well, this is not true for difficult cases.
Audacity – free and relatively advanced tool. This is an audio editor that also allows you to get wave forms and spectrum analysis etc.
In other case you can move to advance audio editors like Sound Forge or Adobe Audition. These are not free but far advanced and need some experience.
Usually, foobar is enough for basic numbers – this will tell you if the tracks are about the same. Wave forms are different issue. In any case, for detail analysis of different tracks one needs to align them correctly that is quite boring and time consuming. And in the result you'll get numbers that will show you how those tracks are different in details (like are they stay in synch, how different frequency spectra is etc.). I find these digging quite boring and useless because for those old CDs we do not have enough information about the details of mastering, no details about dupe tapes that were shipped and used in different countries, no production log books from the factories etc. Thus, this 'reverse engineering' is fun but a kind of useless.
___________
For the analog to digital transfers, vintage reel-to-reel tape machines were utilized - a modified Ampex 351 with original tube electronics (full track mono and two track stereo) and an Ampex ATR-102 modified with Aria Discrete Class-A Electronics (full track mono and two track stereo). A Sonoma DSD digital audio workstation was the chosen high resolution format and Meitner Design ADC8 and DAC8 MKlV converters were used for the conversion process. Cables used were the cryogenically frozen type supplied to us by Gus Skinas of Super Audio Center. Gus also provided much guidance to Jody Klein, Steve Rosenthal and myself for our first time use of DSD technology. For this HD Tracks release, the Bob Ludwig mastered DSD files were converted to both 176.4kHz and 88.2kHz high resolution PCM with Weiss Saracon conversion software.
___________
Thus, HD tracks are converted DSD files. Same mixes and same mastering as on 2002 SACD-hybrids.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-16 10:50 by ironbelly.
As you see, some are drastically different, the others are just slightly shifted.
Where did I find this chart? Great work whoever did it.
Some work was done in 2016 for In Mono box
Some work was done for 50th Anniversary Editions. But it is not clear if for stereo versions they made another transfers in 2017-2019 or start with the same 2002 but re-mixed and remastered them.
As a matter of fact the 1st pressing of P25L 25047 (in April 1989) was done from the same glass master and using the same molding equipment as P33L 25011. I.e. so called 'old JVC'. And to make things more fun, the last pressing run of P33L 25011 (probably, February-April 1989) was done using so called 'new JVC' equipment with 'block barcode' matrix style, like most of the CDs in P25L series. On the previous page you presented this case - the last pressing of P33L 25011 and the 1st pressing of P25L 25047.
Here are those pairs
P33L 25011 early pressing, old JVC matrix, P33L-25011-U1E21
P33L 25011 the last pressing, new JVC matrix, P33L-25011-A3E11
P25L 25047 the 1st pressing, old JVC matrix, P33L-25011-U1E22
P25L 25047 late pressing, new JVC matrix, P33L-25011-A3E12
[www.stay-tuned-to-sw.de]
Unfortunately, the owner of the site lost interest to that project. The latest update was in 2017.
Also, the information on that site is not correct in many places.
'Six pressings' in West German section is great simplification. Beggars Banquet do exist in so called 'second pressing'. There are re-isues (multiple for some discs) that are not even mentioned there. So called 4th, 5th and 6th pressings are not ordered correctly. I.e. 6th correspond to 1990-1991 (and discs, most probably, were pressed in Alsdorf but not in Hanover), 4th new logo 1992-1993, 4th old logo = 1993-1994, 5th = 1994-1995.
The French section is wrong for sure, he messed with the timeline of pressings again. First pressing was on PDO in 1990-1991, second on PRS 1992-1994 and 3rd and 4th on PMDC in 1994-1995. Also, not all 17 albums from the series were pressed in France.
In that Japanese table half of the discs from P33L series got wrong release date and West Germany for Japan import CD The Rolling Stones [820 0472] is missing.
0. The Rolling Stones [820 0472] pre-P33L West German import, CD with black and red ffrr London label, and 4 pages booklet with red diagonal banner in the upper left corner of the front page (so called the 1st West German pressing), 1984. The only Japanese extra is a sticker-OBI. Rare and limited edition. Extremely hard to find.
1. Beggar’s Banquet [P33L 50002/800 084-2] West Germany for Japan, March 1, 1985. The CD was made in West Germany by Polygram and accompanied with Japanese booklet and OBI. This edition passed through several incarnations in terms of label print and glass masters (02 # and 03 #). Not extremely rare. By the end of 1987 it was replaced with Japanese-made CD [P33L 25021] listed below as #14.
2. Their Satanic Majesties Request [P33L 25001], May 1, 1986, pressed by JVC
3. Let It Bleed [P33L 25002], May 1, 1986, pressed by JVC
4. Aftermath [P33L 25006], June 1, 1986, pressed by JVC
5. 12 x 5 [P33L 25008], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
6. Between The Buttons [P33L 25009], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
7. Out Of Our Heads [P33L 25010], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
8. Hot Rocks 1 [P33L 25011], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
9. Hot Rocks 2 [P33L 25012], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
10. The Rolling Stones [P33L 25014], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC. This is the 1st original Japanese pressing of the title but the 2nd edition for Japan if you count pre-P33L West German import.
11. The Rolling Stones No.2 [P33L 25015], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC
12. Big Hits (High Tide & Green Grass), UK version [P33L 25016], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC
13. Big Hits Vol.2 Through The Past, Darkly, UK version [P33L 25017], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC
14. Beggar’s Banquet [P33L 25021], December 1, 1987, pressed by Memory Tech Corp. This is the 1st original Japanese pressing of the title but the 2nd edition for Japan.
Titles marked from 1 through 10 are equivalent to West German London discs that were issued in 1984 - 1986. Titles 11 – 13 – are Japanese only, no equivalent for the ROW. Title 14 – Japanese-made and re-packed version of title 1 (with intro to Prodigal Son cut off). Discs from P33L set were re-issued a couple of times (with different OBIs and some from different glass masters). In April 1989 P33L series were replaced by P25L.
Also a pair of big 12" boxes for The Singles Collection - The London Years is missing: [P69L 5006/8], November 1989 and [POCD1901/3], March 1995
To be fair, I started with that site as a reference but soon found that I have too many CDs that do not fit the scheme. However, that outdated 'system of six pressings' for West German discs is still in use among collectors for quick identification of the editions.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-20 18:29 by ironbelly.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-06 04:46 by exilestones.
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This is the rare West German first pressing issued in Japan with a plastic obi affixed to the case.
Disc face features the old style red-and-black London "ear" ffrr logo.
This release has the long, cold ended version of 'Tell Me' (4.05).
This copy came in a smooth edged jewel case.
Overview of pressing variations The Rolling Stones – The Rolling Stones (1964) – London 820 047-2
For the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 3a pressings the matrix 01# was used. The discs from those pressings feature the long, cold ended version of 'Tell Me' (4.05).
The discs (independently on pressing and runout) are all mono. Although misprinted STEREO on 1st and 2nd pressings.
1st pressing: The Rolling Stones, Polygram, Hanover, West Germany; Booklet - 4 pages with red banner in upper left corner, CD - red-and-black ‘ear’ ffrr logo, Made in West Germany by Polygram, GEMA, track list printed on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 01#, original mastering with long, cold-ended ‘Tell Me’ (4.05). CD misprinted STEREO. June 1984.
2nd pressing: The Rolling Stones, Polygram, Hanover; Booklet 4 pages with red banner in upper left corner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo (font in logo as for the 1 pressing), Made in West Germany by Polygram, GEMA, track list printed on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 01#, original mastering with long, cold-ended ‘Tell Me’ (4.05). CD misprinted STEREO. September 1984.
2a pressing The Rolling Stones: everything as above, slightly different font for framed logo. 1984
2b pressing The Rolling Stones - The Rolling Stones: like 2a, but with MCPS instead of GEMA. 1984-1985?
3rd pressing: The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; Booklet 4 pages with red banner in upper left corner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 01# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, original mastering with long, cold-ended ‘Tell Me’ (4.05). CD properly marked MONO, 1986.
3a pressing: CD - same as 3, Booklet 12 pages without red banner. The only pressing with proper back cover info – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1989. 7 July 1988.
3b pressing The Rolling Stones - The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 02# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1988.
3c pressing: The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red unframed new London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 02# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1989.
3d pressing: The Rolling Stones - The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; same as 3c but with Matrix 820 047-2 03# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, probably early 1990s?
4th pressing: Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red unframed new London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 03# MADE IN GERMANY, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1992?
4a pressing: Same as pressing 4, but with old framed London logo. CD misprinted – ‘All rights of the manufacturer…’ line is missing, 1992?
5th pressing: The Rolling Stones, PMDC, Germany; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 03# MADE IN GERMANY BY PMDC, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1994
6th pressing: The Rolling Stones; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD – clear center, blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 03#, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1991
6a pressing – same as above but with new unframed London logo. Matrix and Year as yet unknown.
I found this post at [www.discogs.com]
Did you write this information? Thank you
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Abkco NCD 3 USA - Abkco 1986 Masters (released 1986)
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POCD 1057 Japan - Abkco 1986 Masters (released 1991)
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POCD 1932 Japan - Abkco 1986 Masters (released 1995)
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Abkco 844 089-2 Europe (released 1995) I presume the Abkco 1986 masters were used?
In terms of digital content
No.2 P33L 25015 = P25L 25033 = POCD 1913
Big Hits UK P33L 25016 = P25L 25039 = POCD 1919
Through The Past, Darkly UK P33L 25017 = P25L 25044 = POCD 1924
These are digital clones.
No. 2
Tracks 4, 5, 7, 9 – STEREO
Tracks 1-3, 6, 8, 10-12 – MONO
Big Hits UK
Tracks 2, 3, 5, 12, 13 – STEREO
Tracks 1, 4, 6 – 11, 14 – Electronically Reproduced STEREO
Through The Past, Darkly UK
Tracks 1-4, 6-12 – STEREO
Track 5 – Electronically Reproduced STEREO
Regarding versions and mastering
Big Hits US, old ABKCO
Tracks 1-7, 9-12: MONO
Track 8: STEREO
Time Is On My Side with organ intro
The Past, Darkly US, old ABKCO
Tracks 1 (long version), 4, 7: MONO
Tracks 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 11: STEREO
Track 5, 10: Electronically Reproduced Stereo
Tracks 4 and 7, apparently, are folded form STEREO versions
The Rolling Stones [820 047-2], this one is mono only, but you should look for pressing from glass master 01 for cold ended Tell Me
Let It Bleed [820 052-2] from glass master 01 or 02. The most common one from glass master 03 is marginally different with silence trimmed in the beginning and at the end of the CD and with very minor volume/EQ adjustments for a couple of tracks.
Hot Rocks 1 [820 141-2] from glass masters 01 or 02. These came w/o fades.
The digital content of the CDs did not change. It is the same in the late 80s and early 90s. The sound supposed to be the same. Unless you can hear the differences in the sound for the CDs that are pressed from the same digital master but at different plants. It does not matter if you collect rips. Although, old Japanese JVC discs can degrade and became unplayable (I have a couple of those). Thus, collecting of physical CDs is a tricky thing.
That edition for Japan with sticky OBI is a real thing. It was sold in Japan as import in mid-1984. This is certain.
This is the place where Stones fans can advertise anything for sale, wanted, trade or whatever, from fan to fan. Advertisements are for free.
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Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: April 13, 2020 14:08
Depends on the catalog numberQuote
exilestones
I believe the POCD catalog numbers are not the MFSL wide stereo.
POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 from February 25, 1995 are digital clones of P25L 25031 – P25L 25050 series. I.e. so called ‘MFSL’. These do not have black and red banner DIGITALLY REMASTERED FROM ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDINGS in the bottom of the cover.
Transitional POCD from 1991 POCD-1056, POCD-1057 (i.e. both Big Hits in US configuration) are old ABKCO, i.e. originated from 1986 ABKCO mastering
Additional POCD from 1995 (complimentary to POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 series): POCD-1936 (England’s Newest Hitmkers), POCD-1937 (Aftermath US), POCD-1931, POCD-1932 (both Big Hits in US configuration, re-issue of POCD-1056, POCD-1057) and POCD-1938/40 (The Singles Collection – The London Years) are old ABKCO
Late POCD 1960 – POCD 1975/6 from December 3, 1997 – US based ABKCO catalog with old ABKCO mastering.
All those additional, transitional and late POCD CDs have black and red banner DIGITALLY REMASTERED FROM ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDINGS in the bottom of the cover.
The Singles Collection – The London Years, big 12” boxes P69L 50006/8 (November 1, 1989) and POCD-9501/3 (March 25, 1995) are clones to European [London 820 900-2]. The first one came with West German PDO-made discs, the second with PMDC-made. They came with ABKCO mastering.
Well, it is opposite. There are only 3 discs in the West German series that were issued after 1988 with slightly modified mastering – The Rolling Stones [820 047-2], Let It Bleed [820 052-2] and Hot Rocks 1 [820 141-2]. The re-issues of The Rolling Stones [820 047-2] and Hot Rocks 1 [820 141-2] (1988-1994) came with premature fades for some tracks. Let It Bleed [820 052-2] had silence in the beginning and at the end trimmed and some level shift only. The original editions do not have this issue.Quote
exilestones
Right and every time the LONDON West German MFSL CDs were re-released, they could be slightly different with the exact same catalog number. You had to be an expert to figure-out if you had the first issue, second issue, third issue, etc... Which the first few issues had the fade-outs (cutting off the end of the song.
Japanese discs (except for December’s Children [P25L 2036, POCD 1916] and Beggars Banquet P33L 25021 and very early pressings of P25L 25043) are based on the very same A/D transfer as the initial pressing run of West German discs. No fade outs.Quote
exilestones
The Japanese MFSL CDs didn't have the fade-outs? Correct?
December’s Children [P25L 2036, POCD 1916] is all mono, like ABKCO transfer. West German disc [London 820 135-2] has two tracks in wide stereo.
Beggars Banquet P33L 25021 and very early pressings of P25L 25043 is slightly weirdly mastered (probably tweaked on site) with intro to Prodigal Son cut off. Late pressings of P25L 25043 and POCD-1923 have intro to Prodigal Son restored. They just copy/pasted the version of the initial West German transfer [used for P33L 50002] into weirdly mastered tape as a replacement.
Sorry, I have no idea about vinyl. I am not familiar with that field.Quote
exilestones
Did the Old Abkco CDs have the same masterings as other Abcko releases (vinyl) that came before the first Abkco CDs? Or were the CDs not a new mix/mastering?
Correct. Hot Rocks 1 [London 820 141-2], all discs made in France by PRS and PMDC, in Argentina and in Brazil came with the version of ABKCO 1989/90 A/D transfer that was used for the 1st time in the UK for 2CD Hot Rocks 1964-1971 [London 820 140-2]. Which means:Quote
exilestones
The later France Hot Rocks had the same catalog number [London 820 141-2] but not the same MFSL (Mobil Fidelity Sound Labs) mix at all?
Tracks 1, 3-6, 8, 9 (PIB long version): MONO (well, not 100% pure digital, but slightly ‘unbalanced’ mono)
Track 2: STEREO intro + MONO body (improper fold of short stereo version)
Track 7: Electronically Reproduced Stereo
Tracks 10-12: STEREO
Track 01-Time Is On My Side is Chess Studio guitar intro version
And to make the things more interesting – some of those French discs came with back covers that state ‘Made in West Germany’ and all back covers carry a note ‘ANALOGUE TO DIGITAL MASTERING BY MOBILE FIDELITY SOUND’.
Correct. In 2002 we got new High Definition A/D transfer and new mastering supervised by Bob Ludwig. Some tracks were remixed, some appeared from newly discovered tapes. All new.Quote
exilestones
So, in 2002 we got all new mixes and remasters? The MFSL mixes were put to rest?
Discs with so called ‘MFSL’ transfer were out from the market in 1994 (or very early 1995) in Europe and in 1997 in Japan. Some of discs that originated from ‘MFSL’ transfer were on the market in South America (Made in Brazil) in the late 90’s too. But that story is too hazy because some Brazilian discs with 820 xxx-2 catalog number came with old ABKCO mastering while the others with ‘MFSL’. It is a mess. Fortunately, Brazilian discs are not easy to get reasonable priced, at least in my woods
. And those that I had in hands had very poor quality booklets.Probably, he messed it with some other tracks from Aftermath basing on that old FAQ by Luke and DaveQuote
exilestones
My friend Dan was telling me about Paint It Black from 2002 there was a narrow stereo mix. He was judging by ear. Maybe he was mistaken?
[www.lukpac.org]
Unfortunately, that FAQ is out of date and not error free. It was acknowledged by Luke on Steve Hoffman’s music forum that it needs revisions and corrections, but they did not get there yet.
Unfortunately, London-Decca catalog is a complete mess. There is not a single series that can get a stamp of ‘ultimate edition’. Every set of re-issues (even old ABKCO) has best moments and flops. For best set of wide stereo tracks without fades, one should collect the first edition of West German discs. Or pick up complete P25L 25031 – P25L 25050 (or POCD 1911 – POCD 1930) plus West German December’s Children [820 135-2] and TSC-TLY, early edition from any country. But in this case ('MFSL' based variant), you’ll get Beggars Banquet and Between The Buttons running on wrong speed and tons of small digital glitches and other defects associated with old A/D style transfer all around the place (and some tracks will be presented in album but not singles mix). New 2002 A/D transfer that was used for SADC-hybrid discs generally is better (but they messed with mixes there too). On the other hand, some 2002 discs passed through ‘modern digital mastering’, i.e. they do not sound 'natural' in places, although Beggars and Buttons are running on proper speed. It is cherry picking, you knowQuote
exilestones
The MFSL releases got better as time went on as far as sound quality and most particularly noted, not with the fade-outs. I believe the P33L series, P25L series were the best of the bunch as far as sound and no fade-outs? Correct?
.Regarding Paint It Black from POCD-1057 and POCD-1970. Both are based on the worst A/D transfer, ABKCO 1986. I.e. it has stereo phasing in the beginning and at the end of the track and lacking top end. The one I described above as #2. Both tracks share almost identical numbersQuote
exilestones
PIB POCD-1057, PIB POCD-1970
POCD-1057
Left Right
Peak Value: -1.39 dB --- -1.18 dB
Avg RMS: -15.63 dB --- -15.36 dB
DR channel: 11.06 dB --- 11.14 dB
POCD-1970
Left Right
Peak Value: -1.39 dB --- -1.18 dB
Avg RMS: -15.63 dB --- -15.37 dB
DR channel: 10.83 dB --- 10.75 dB
As you see there is 0.21dB difference in peak values and ~0.3dB difference in RMS for Left and Right channels. This is not good mono, right channel is louder. Also, peak values are the same for both discs, but RMS is a bit (0.01d
different for Right channel. I do not know the reason for that – both discs were pressed by Memory Tech Inc. Most probably, this is caused by different pre-sets for amplifiers or LBR in 1991 and 1997 or some production bug. I believe, ‘minus infinity’ (i.e. total silence) was pre-set a bit different for those discs. But judging waveforms and numbers both tracks originated from the same (very inferior) A/D transfer. Otherwise, the tracks were ripped with different EAC (or whatever software) settings.Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-13 18:58 by ironbelly.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: April 15, 2020 03:08
Quote
ironbellyDepends on the catalog numberQuote
exilestones
I believe the POCD catalog numbers are not the MFSL wide stereo.
POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 from February 25, 1995 are digital clones of P25L 25031 – P25L 25050 series. I.e. so called ‘MFSL’. These do not have black and red banner DIGITALLY REMASTERED FROM ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDINGS in the bottom of the cover.
Transitional POCD from 1991 POCD-1056, POCD-1057 (i.e. both Big Hits in US configuration) are old ABKCO, i.e. originated from 1986 ABKCO mastering
Additional POCD from 1995 (complimentary to POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 series): POCD-1936 (England’s Newest Hitmkers), POCD-1937 (Aftermath US), POCD-1931, POCD-1932 (both Big Hits in US configuration, re-issue of POCD-1056, POCD-1057) and POCD-1938/40 (The Singles Collection – The London Years) are old ABKCO
Late POCD 1960 – POCD 1975/6 from December 3, 1997 – US based ABKCO catalog with old ABKCO mastering.
All those additional, transitional and late POCD CDs have black and red banner DIGITALLY REMASTERED FROM ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDINGS in the bottom of the cover.
The Singles Collection – The London Years, big 12” boxes P69L 50006/8 (November 1, 1989) and POCD-9501/3 (March 25, 1995) are clones to European [London 820 900-2]. The first one came with West German PDO-made discs, the second with PMDC-made. They came with ABKCO mastering.Well, it is opposite. There are only 3 discs in the West German series that were issued after 1988 with slightly modified mastering – The Rolling Stones [820 047-2], Let It Bleed [820 052-2] and Hot Rocks 1 [820 141-2]. The re-issues of The Rolling Stones [820 047-2] and Hot Rocks 1 [820 141-2] (1988-1994) came with premature fades for some tracks. Let It Bleed [820 052-2] had silence in the beginning and at the end trimmed and some level shift only. The original editions do not have this issue.Quote
exilestones
Right and every time the LONDON West German MFSL CDs were re-released, they could be slightly different with the exact same catalog number. You had to be an expert to figure-out if you had the first issue, second issue, third issue, etc... Which the first few issues had the fade-outs (cutting off the end of the song.Japanese discs (except for December’s Children [P25L 2036, POCD 1916] and Beggars Banquet P33L 25021 and very early pressings of P25L 25043) are based on the very same A/D transfer as the initial pressing run of West German discs. No fade outs.Quote
exilestones
The Japanese MFSL CDs didn't have the fade-outs? Correct?
December’s Children [P25L 2036, POCD 1916] is all mono, like ABKCO transfer. West German disc [London 820 135-2] has two tracks in wide stereo.
Beggars Banquet P33L 25021 and very early pressings of P25L 25043 is slightly weirdly mastered (probably tweaked on site) with intro to Prodigal Son cut off. Late pressings of P25L 25043 and POCD-1923 have intro to Prodigal Son restored. They just copy/pasted the version of the initial West German transfer [used for P33L 50002] into weirdly mastered tape as a replacement.Sorry, I have no idea about vinyl. I am not familiar with that field.Quote
exilestones
Did the Old Abkco CDs have the same masterings as other Abcko releases (vinyl) that came before the first Abkco CDs? Or were the CDs not a new mix/mastering?Correct. Hot Rocks 1 [London 820 141-2], all discs made in France by PRS and PMDC, in Argentina and in Brazil came with the version of ABKCO 1989/90 A/D transfer that was used for the 1st time in the UK for 2CD Hot Rocks 1964-1971 [London 820 140-2]. Which means:Quote
exilestones
The later France Hot Rocks had the same catalog number [London 820 141-2] but not the same MFSL (Mobil Fidelity Sound Labs) mix at all?
Tracks 1, 3-6, 8, 9 (PIB long version): MONO (well, not 100% pure digital, but slightly ‘unbalanced’ mono)
Track 2: STEREO intro + MONO body (improper fold of short stereo version)
Track 7: Electronically Reproduced Stereo
Tracks 10-12: STEREO
Track 01-Time Is On My Side is Chess Studio guitar intro version
And to make the things more interesting – some of those French discs came with back covers that state ‘Made in West Germany’ and all back covers carry a note ‘ANALOGUE TO DIGITAL MASTERING BY MOBILE FIDELITY SOUND’.Correct. In 2002 we got new High Definition A/D transfer and new mastering supervised by Bob Ludwig. Some tracks were remixed, some appeared from newly discovered tapes. All new.Quote
exilestones
So, in 2002 we got all new mixes and remasters? The MFSL mixes were put to rest?
Discs with so called ‘MFSL’ transfer were out from the market in 1994 (or very early 1995) in Europe and in 1997 in Japan. Some of discs that originated from ‘MFSL’ transfer were on the market in South America (Made in Brazil) in the late 90’s too. But that story is too hazy because some Brazilian discs with 820 xxx-2 catalog number came with old ABKCO mastering while the others with ‘MFSL’. It is a mess. Fortunately, Brazilian discs are not easy to get reasonable priced, at least in my woodsProbably, he messed it with some other tracks from Aftermath basing on that old FAQ by Luke and DaveQuote
exilestones
My friend Dan was telling me about Paint It Black from 2002 there was a narrow stereo mix. He was judging by ear. Maybe he was mistaken?
[www.lukpac.org]
Unfortunately, that FAQ is out of date and not error free. It was acknowledged by Luke on Steve Hoffman’s music forum that it needs revisions and corrections, but they did not get there yet.Unfortunately, London-Decca catalog is a complete mess. There is not a single series that can get a stamp of ‘ultimate edition’. Every set of re-issues (even old ABKCO) has best moments and flops. For best set of wide stereo tracks without fades, one should collect the first edition of West German discs. Or pick up complete P25L 25031 – P25L 25050 (or POCD 1911 – POCD 1930) plus West German December’s Children [820 135-2] and TSC-TLY, early edition from any country. But in this case ('MFSL' based variant), you’ll get Beggars Banquet and Between The Buttons running on wrong speed and tons of small digital glitches and other defects associated with old A/D style transfer all around the place (and some tracks will be presented in album but not singles mix). New 2002 A/D transfer that was used for SADC-hybrid discs generally is better (but they messed with mixes there too). On the other hand, some 2002 discs passed through ‘modern digital mastering’, i.e. they do not sound 'natural' in places, although Beggars and Buttons are running on proper speed. It is cherry picking, you knowQuote
exilestones
The MFSL releases got better as time went on as far as sound quality and most particularly noted, not with the fade-outs. I believe the P33L series, P25L series were the best of the bunch as far as sound and no fade-outs? Correct?Regarding Paint It Black from POCD-1057 and POCD-1970. Both are based on the worst A/D transfer, ABKCO 1986. I.e. it has stereo phasing in the beginning and at the end of the track and lacking top end. The one I described above as #2. Both tracks share almost identical numbersQuote
exilestones
PIB POCD-1057, PIB POCD-1970
POCD-1057
Left Right
Peak Value: -1.39 dB --- -1.18 dB
Avg RMS: -15.63 dB --- -15.36 dB
DR channel: 11.06 dB --- 11.14 dB
POCD-1970
Left Right
Peak Value: -1.39 dB --- -1.18 dB
Avg RMS: -15.63 dB --- -15.37 dB
DR channel: 10.83 dB --- 10.75 dB
As you see there is 0.21dB difference in peak values and ~0.3dB difference in RMS for Left and Right channels. This is not good mono, right channel is louder. Also, peak values are the same for both discs, but RMS is a bit (0.01d
Your knowledge is amazing. I'll have to read this over a few times before I fully comprehend.
As far as seeing the difference, I prefer the image of the sound waves to comprehend better.
My main question is, how many different mixes/masterings are there? It really gets complicated after these CDs. Then there were mor releases.
How do you analyze the tracks to get the information? I'd love to have a report of every Paint It Black to see how many different versions of Paint It Black there are.
After 2002 were all of the Abkco catalog the same 2002 masters? Was every release between 1986-2002 the 1986 masters? I guess we'd have to look at each release to know.
Paint It Black like other songs (She's A Rainbow/2000 Light Years) were re-released as singles several times. I wonder was it the same mix/masters or did we get something a bit different?
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: April 15, 2020 03:23
It would be best to ask about one re-issue series at a time.
Question: Were the 2010 Abkco HD series the same mixes as the 2002 re-masters?
Was, in particular 2010 HD Paint It Black the same as the 2002 re-masters?
[wetransfer.com]
Question: Were the 2010 Abkco HD series the same mixes as the 2002 re-masters?
Was, in particular 2010 HD Paint It Black the same as the 2002 re-masters?
[wetransfer.com]
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: April 15, 2020 14:32
Here we go. The graphs are zoomed to show the details better. Time scale (horizontal) is the same. Vertical (volume in dB ) scale is different for each case.Quote
exilestones
As far as seeing the difference, I prefer the image of the sound waves to comprehend better.
PIB stereo, West German, ‘MFSL’ initial. CD pressed from glass master 01 *
PIB stereo, West German, ‘MSFL’ phase inverted and level shifted. CD pressed from glass master 03 *. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
PIB stereo, Japanese. Initial ‘MSFL’ with some modifications. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
PIB stereo. ABKCO 2002 A/D transfer.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1986 A/D transfer.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1986 A/D transfer. Residual signal after channel subtraction. Weird and screwed mastering. Time scale (horizontal) is full track 3.44. Residual signal ~-32dB, distorted and shifted. Those drifts from (to) 'minus infinity' in the beginning (at the end) of the track are recognized as stereo phasing by the software. This one is the worst A/D transfer from all.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1989/90 A/D transfer.
PIB ‘mono’. ABKCO 1989/90 A/D transfer. Residual signal after channel subtraction. An example of ‘unbalanced mono’. Time scale (horizontal) is full track 3.44. Residual signal is ~-24dB. You can play that one. It will be very quite mono track
.PIB mono. ABKCO 2002 A/D transfer.
PIB mono. ABKCO 2002 A/D transfer. Residual signal after channel subtraction.Time scale (horizontal) is full track 3.44. Mind that ‘residual’ is on the level of -90 - -80dB. This is the actual ‘silence’ level (or tape hiss, if you wish).
I specified A/D transfers beforeQuote
exilestones
My main question is, how many different mixes/masterings are there?
1. So called ‘MFSL’ stereo, short version
1a. West German initial stereo
1b. West German stereo with fade. Phase inverted, level shifted. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
1c. Japanese stereo. Equivalent to 1a, but with level shift and different EQ. Apparently, analog dupe (but different from 1b) tape was used.
2. ‘MSFL-alike’ Japanese stereo on Big Hits (High Tide and Green Grass) UK version. From unknown source. Either heavily processed and phase inverted ‘MSFL’ transfer 1a or something made locally in Japan for that compilation.
3. ABKCO 1986 ‘mono’, long version. Totally screwed A/D transfer and weird mastering. On Aftermath (US version) and Big Hits Vol. 2 (US version) CDs no matter country of origin. Also, on initial Hot Rocks 1964-1971 2CD West Germany for US.
4. ABCKO 1989/1990 ‘mono’, long version. Slightly ‘unbalanced’ mono. All Hot Rocks 1964-1971 CDs from 1990 till 2002, no matter country of origin and on The Singles Collection – The London Years till 2002.
Versions 3 and 4, apparently, have several slightly different variants (level/volume shifted) depending on the plant and country of manufacturing.
5. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Short stereo.
6. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Long mono.
Apparently, all 2002-2016 versions issued on CD and HD are based on transfers 5 and 6. Some fancy Japanese SHM limited editions could possibly have slight level/volume shift.
7. Guitar Hero extended stereo mix from unknown source.
8. 2016 short mono mix for the box In Mono based on version 6 with slight EQ and level shift. Fade at 3.22.
This is it. I do not have all the CDs from different pressings and different countries to track down tiny details of particular ‘production mastering’.
Look, they have initial A/D transfer. In old times they made a DAT (Digital Audio Tape) dupe copy and sent it to the factory for production. In theory, DAT tape is a clone of the initial mastering. On the factory, however, they could possibly made slight adjustments to fit their equipment (or there were some pre-sets that were not 100% identical to those in the mastering lab). As a result, you are getting a mastering based on the same A/D transfer, but level/volume shifted, or phase inverted or something else (like extra pause between the tracks or EQ adjustments for Japanese taste). The CD will sound about the same, but not exactly. If you do not have all pressings from all countries, you cannot be sure about the exact number of ‘production mastering’ variations. In some cases, there are no differences. I the others – there are some. For example, Hot Rocks 1964-1971 based on UK [London 820 140-2] A/D transfer has different peak levels for French [London 820 141-2], Australian [London 820 140-2] (in fact, in Australia they also swapped right<->left channels for stereo tracks), German [ABKCO 844 475-2] and late US Disctronics [66672]. In any case, badly transferred and weirdly produces ABKCO 1986 will sound bad no matter what you do. How many tiny variations on the level of ~0.1-0.2 dB volume are there? I do not know.
For basic analysis you have free softwareQuote
exilestones
How do you analyze the tracks to get the information?
Exact Audio Copy (EAC). This one has option to analyze audio files but in wav format only (Tools->Process WAV -> open file -> choose different options). You can get wave forms and spectra. Well, some information about peaks too. This one is very basic.
Foobar 2000 player with Dynamic Range Meter plugin. This will return numbers only. Load track, right click on it, select Dynamic Range Meter from drop menu. It will provide a table on screen and write foo_dr txt file in the folder with Peak level, RMS and Dynamic range. It works in the 1st approximation as a tool for mastering analysis. If those numbers are the same – the mastering is the same. Well, this is not true for difficult cases.
Audacity – free and relatively advanced tool. This is an audio editor that also allows you to get wave forms and spectrum analysis etc.
In other case you can move to advance audio editors like Sound Forge or Adobe Audition. These are not free but far advanced and need some experience.
Usually, foobar is enough for basic numbers – this will tell you if the tracks are about the same. Wave forms are different issue. In any case, for detail analysis of different tracks one needs to align them correctly that is quite boring and time consuming. And in the result you'll get numbers that will show you how those tracks are different in details (like are they stay in synch, how different frequency spectra is etc.). I find these digging quite boring and useless because for those old CDs we do not have enough information about the details of mastering, no details about dupe tapes that were shipped and used in different countries, no production log books from the factories etc. Thus, this 'reverse engineering' is fun but a kind of useless.
They came from the same A/D transfer. Most of them (apart of a few Japanese discs) are digital clones, i.e. exactly the same. Some Japanese discs got a slight ‘lift off’, i.e. were slightly tweaked during production stage. I do not have a list of those but remember that one fancy re-issue of TSMR on SHM had slightly different peaks.Quote
exilestones
After 2002 were all of the Abkco catalog the same 2002 masters?
Most of them – yes. Hot Rocks was remastered once again in 1989/90 as well as a new set of A/D transfers was prepared for The Singles Collection – The London Years.Quote
exilestones
Was every release between 1986-2002 the 1986 masters?
Yes. One will need to make track by track compilations of the initial 1986 tracks and those that appeared on TSC-TLY. But I am almost positive, that regular albums and Big Hits compilations were still based on the initial 1986 A/D transfer. Although, for example, Let It Bleed initial US CD NCD 4 and PMDC UK made 844 473-2 have different peak levels, i.e. the latter was a subject of ‘production mastering’.Quote
exilestones
I guess we'd have to look at each release to know.
In digital domain – the same A/D transfer. Some are volume shifted. Nothing new.Quote
exilestones
Paint It Black like other songs (She's A Rainbow/2000 Light Years) were re-released as singles several times. I wonder was it the same mix/masters or did we get something a bit different?
According to HD tracks:Quote
exilestones
Question: Were the 2010 Abkco HD series the same mixes as the 2002 re-masters?
Was, in particular 2010 HD Paint It Black the same as the 2002 re-masters?
___________
For the analog to digital transfers, vintage reel-to-reel tape machines were utilized - a modified Ampex 351 with original tube electronics (full track mono and two track stereo) and an Ampex ATR-102 modified with Aria Discrete Class-A Electronics (full track mono and two track stereo). A Sonoma DSD digital audio workstation was the chosen high resolution format and Meitner Design ADC8 and DAC8 MKlV converters were used for the conversion process. Cables used were the cryogenically frozen type supplied to us by Gus Skinas of Super Audio Center. Gus also provided much guidance to Jody Klein, Steve Rosenthal and myself for our first time use of DSD technology. For this HD Tracks release, the Bob Ludwig mastered DSD files were converted to both 176.4kHz and 88.2kHz high resolution PCM with Weiss Saracon conversion software.
___________
Thus, HD tracks are converted DSD files. Same mixes and same mastering as on 2002 SACD-hybrids.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-16 10:50 by ironbelly.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: April 15, 2020 18:04
Quote
exilestones
I'd love to have a report of every Paint It Black to see how many different versions of Paint It Black there are.
As you see, some are drastically different, the others are just slightly shifted.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: April 19, 2020 00:47
Iornbelly, I'm blown-away with your reports. I'll have to read the reports again and again (twice so far). Amazing.
I specified A/D transfers before
1. So called ‘MFSL’ stereo, short version
1a. West German initial stereo
1b. West German stereo with fade. Phase inverted, level shifted. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
1c. Japanese stereo. Equivalent to 1a, but with level shift and different EQ. Apparently, analog dupe (but different from 1b) tape was used.
2. ‘MSFL-alike’ Japanese stereo on Big Hits (High Tide and Green Grass) UK version. From unknown source. Either heavily processed and phase inverted ‘MSFL’ transfer 1a or something made locally in Japan for that compilation.
3. ABKCO 1986 ‘mono’, long version. Totally screwed A/D transfer and weird mastering. On Aftermath (US version) and Big Hits Vol. 2 (US version) CDs no matter country of origin. Also, on initial Hot Rocks 1964-1971 2CD West Germany for US.
4. ABCKO 1989/1990 ‘mono’, long version. Slightly ‘unbalanced’ mono. All Hot Rocks 1964-1971 CDs from 1990 till 2002, no matter country of origin and on The Singles Collection – The London Years till 2002.
Versions 3 and 4, apparently, have several slightly different variants (level/volume shifted) depending on the plant and country of manufacturing.
5. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Short stereo.
6. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Long mono.
Apparently, all 2002-2016 versions issued on CD and HD are based on transfers 5 and 6. Some fancy Japanese SHM limited editions could possibly have slight level/volume shift.
7. Guitar Hero extended stereo mix from unknown source.
8. 2016 short mono mix for the box In Mono based on version 6 with slight EQ and level shift. Fade at 3.22.
This is it. I do not have all the CDs from different pressings and different countries to track down tiny details of particular ‘production mastering’.
Look, they have initial A/D transfer. In old times they made a DAT (Digital Audio Tape) dupe copy and sent it to the factory for production. In theory, DAT tape is a clone of the initial mastering. On the factory, however, they could possibly made slight adjustments to fit their equipment (or there were some pre-sets that were not 100% identical to those in the mastering lab). As a result, you are getting a mastering based on the same A/D transfer, but level/volume shifted, or phase inverted or something else (like extra pause between the tracks or EQ adjustments for Japanese taste). The CD will sound about the same, but not exactly. If you do not have all pressings from all countries, you cannot be sure about the exact number of ‘production mastering’ variations. In some cases, there are no differences. I the others – there are some. For example, Hot Rocks 1964-1971 based on UK [London 820 140-2] A/D transfer has different peak levels for French [London 820 141-2], Australian [London 820 140-2] (in fact, in Australia they also swapped right<->left channels for stereo tracks), German [ABKCO 844 475-2] and late US Disctronics [66672]. In any case, badly transferred and weirdly produces ABKCO 1986 will sound bad no matter what you do. How many tiny variations on the level of ~0.1-0.2 dB volume are there? I do not know.
I like the way you listed these releases of PIB. 1a, 1b, 1c. To me they are all one version/mastering but I LOVE the detail.
Thank you very much. There weren't a lot of different remasters but there were enough.
The instrumental PIB was cool too. It probably doesn't fit these categories? It sounds different to me.
I specified A/D transfers before
1. So called ‘MFSL’ stereo, short version
1a. West German initial stereo
1b. West German stereo with fade. Phase inverted, level shifted. Apparently, analog dupe tape was used.
1c. Japanese stereo. Equivalent to 1a, but with level shift and different EQ. Apparently, analog dupe (but different from 1b) tape was used.
2. ‘MSFL-alike’ Japanese stereo on Big Hits (High Tide and Green Grass) UK version. From unknown source. Either heavily processed and phase inverted ‘MSFL’ transfer 1a or something made locally in Japan for that compilation.
3. ABKCO 1986 ‘mono’, long version. Totally screwed A/D transfer and weird mastering. On Aftermath (US version) and Big Hits Vol. 2 (US version) CDs no matter country of origin. Also, on initial Hot Rocks 1964-1971 2CD West Germany for US.
4. ABCKO 1989/1990 ‘mono’, long version. Slightly ‘unbalanced’ mono. All Hot Rocks 1964-1971 CDs from 1990 till 2002, no matter country of origin and on The Singles Collection – The London Years till 2002.
Versions 3 and 4, apparently, have several slightly different variants (level/volume shifted) depending on the plant and country of manufacturing.
5. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Short stereo.
6. New ABKCO 2002 SACD DSD transfer. Long mono.
Apparently, all 2002-2016 versions issued on CD and HD are based on transfers 5 and 6. Some fancy Japanese SHM limited editions could possibly have slight level/volume shift.
7. Guitar Hero extended stereo mix from unknown source.
8. 2016 short mono mix for the box In Mono based on version 6 with slight EQ and level shift. Fade at 3.22.
This is it. I do not have all the CDs from different pressings and different countries to track down tiny details of particular ‘production mastering’.
Look, they have initial A/D transfer. In old times they made a DAT (Digital Audio Tape) dupe copy and sent it to the factory for production. In theory, DAT tape is a clone of the initial mastering. On the factory, however, they could possibly made slight adjustments to fit their equipment (or there were some pre-sets that were not 100% identical to those in the mastering lab). As a result, you are getting a mastering based on the same A/D transfer, but level/volume shifted, or phase inverted or something else (like extra pause between the tracks or EQ adjustments for Japanese taste). The CD will sound about the same, but not exactly. If you do not have all pressings from all countries, you cannot be sure about the exact number of ‘production mastering’ variations. In some cases, there are no differences. I the others – there are some. For example, Hot Rocks 1964-1971 based on UK [London 820 140-2] A/D transfer has different peak levels for French [London 820 141-2], Australian [London 820 140-2] (in fact, in Australia they also swapped right<->left channels for stereo tracks), German [ABKCO 844 475-2] and late US Disctronics [66672]. In any case, badly transferred and weirdly produces ABKCO 1986 will sound bad no matter what you do. How many tiny variations on the level of ~0.1-0.2 dB volume are there? I do not know.
I like the way you listed these releases of PIB. 1a, 1b, 1c. To me they are all one version/mastering but I LOVE the detail.
Thank you very much. There weren't a lot of different remasters but there were enough.
The instrumental PIB was cool too. It probably doesn't fit these categories? It sounds different to me.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: April 19, 2020 00:53
I guess the Through the Past Darkly US UICY-93028 Japan 2006 is from the 2002 remasters?
[wetransfer.com]
[wetransfer.com]
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: April 20, 2020 05:08
Where did I find this chart? Great work whoever did it.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: April 20, 2020 12:25
Everything between 2002 and 2016 originated from the very same DSD 2002 transfer.Quote
exilestones
I guess the Through the Past Darkly US UICY-93028 Japan 2006 is from the 2002 remasters?
Some work was done in 2016 for In Mono box
Some work was done for 50th Anniversary Editions. But it is not clear if for stereo versions they made another transfers in 2017-2019 or start with the same 2002 but re-mixed and remastered them.
P33L 25011, P25L 25047 and POCD 1927 are digital clones. All came with the same 1c version.Quote
exilestones
WHAT ABOUT PIB ON P25L 25047?
As a matter of fact the 1st pressing of P25L 25047 (in April 1989) was done from the same glass master and using the same molding equipment as P33L 25011. I.e. so called 'old JVC'. And to make things more fun, the last pressing run of P33L 25011 (probably, February-April 1989) was done using so called 'new JVC' equipment with 'block barcode' matrix style, like most of the CDs in P25L series. On the previous page you presented this case - the last pressing of P33L 25011 and the 1st pressing of P25L 25047.
Here are those pairs
P33L 25011 early pressing, old JVC matrix, P33L-25011-U1E21
P33L 25011 the last pressing, new JVC matrix, P33L-25011-A3E11
P25L 25047 the 1st pressing, old JVC matrix, P33L-25011-U1E22
P25L 25047 late pressing, new JVC matrix, P33L-25011-A3E12
I believe, you got it from hereQuote
exilestones
Where did I find this chart? Great work whoever did it.
[www.stay-tuned-to-sw.de]
Unfortunately, the owner of the site lost interest to that project. The latest update was in 2017.
Also, the information on that site is not correct in many places.
'Six pressings' in West German section is great simplification. Beggars Banquet do exist in so called 'second pressing'. There are re-isues (multiple for some discs) that are not even mentioned there. So called 4th, 5th and 6th pressings are not ordered correctly. I.e. 6th correspond to 1990-1991 (and discs, most probably, were pressed in Alsdorf but not in Hanover), 4th new logo 1992-1993, 4th old logo = 1993-1994, 5th = 1994-1995.
The French section is wrong for sure, he messed with the timeline of pressings again. First pressing was on PDO in 1990-1991, second on PRS 1992-1994 and 3rd and 4th on PMDC in 1994-1995. Also, not all 17 albums from the series were pressed in France.
In that Japanese table half of the discs from P33L series got wrong release date and West Germany for Japan import CD The Rolling Stones [820 0472] is missing.
0. The Rolling Stones [820 0472] pre-P33L West German import, CD with black and red ffrr London label, and 4 pages booklet with red diagonal banner in the upper left corner of the front page (so called the 1st West German pressing), 1984. The only Japanese extra is a sticker-OBI. Rare and limited edition. Extremely hard to find.
1. Beggar’s Banquet [P33L 50002/800 084-2] West Germany for Japan, March 1, 1985. The CD was made in West Germany by Polygram and accompanied with Japanese booklet and OBI. This edition passed through several incarnations in terms of label print and glass masters (02 # and 03 #). Not extremely rare. By the end of 1987 it was replaced with Japanese-made CD [P33L 25021] listed below as #14.
2. Their Satanic Majesties Request [P33L 25001], May 1, 1986, pressed by JVC
3. Let It Bleed [P33L 25002], May 1, 1986, pressed by JVC
4. Aftermath [P33L 25006], June 1, 1986, pressed by JVC
5. 12 x 5 [P33L 25008], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
6. Between The Buttons [P33L 25009], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
7. Out Of Our Heads [P33L 25010], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
8. Hot Rocks 1 [P33L 25011], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
9. Hot Rocks 2 [P33L 25012], September 25, 1986, pressed by JVC
10. The Rolling Stones [P33L 25014], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC. This is the 1st original Japanese pressing of the title but the 2nd edition for Japan if you count pre-P33L West German import.
11. The Rolling Stones No.2 [P33L 25015], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC
12. Big Hits (High Tide & Green Grass), UK version [P33L 25016], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC
13. Big Hits Vol.2 Through The Past, Darkly, UK version [P33L 25017], May 1, 1987, pressed by JVC
14. Beggar’s Banquet [P33L 25021], December 1, 1987, pressed by Memory Tech Corp. This is the 1st original Japanese pressing of the title but the 2nd edition for Japan.
Titles marked from 1 through 10 are equivalent to West German London discs that were issued in 1984 - 1986. Titles 11 – 13 – are Japanese only, no equivalent for the ROW. Title 14 – Japanese-made and re-packed version of title 1 (with intro to Prodigal Son cut off). Discs from P33L set were re-issued a couple of times (with different OBIs and some from different glass masters). In April 1989 P33L series were replaced by P25L.
Also a pair of big 12" boxes for The Singles Collection - The London Years is missing: [P69L 5006/8], November 1989 and [POCD1901/3], March 1995
To be fair, I started with that site as a reference but soon found that I have too many CDs that do not fit the scheme. However, that outdated 'system of six pressings' for West German discs is still in use among collectors for quick identification of the editions.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-20 18:29 by ironbelly.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: May 1, 2020 03:17
Ironbelly, amazing! I read this over and over. Amazing. THANK YOU!
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: August 5, 2021 00:28
Quote
ironbellyDepends on the catalog numberQuote
exilestones
I believe the POCD catalog numbers are not the MFSL wide stereo.
POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 from February 25, 1995 are digital clones of P25L 25031 – P25L 25050 series. I.e. so called ‘MFSL’.
I'm still trying to figure this out. Thank you for your patience and HELP!
Is my list below correct?
POCD 1911 – The Rolling Stones – 1995 (no banner) (london box top right) MFSL
POCD 1912 – 12 X 5 – 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1913 – No 2 – 1995 long version “Everybody Needs Somebody to Love” MFSL
POCD 1914 –NOW! – 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1915 – Out of Our Heads (USA) 1995 MFSL
POCD 1916 – December’s Children 1997 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1917 – Aftermath (UK) 1995 Out of Time (long 5:36) (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1918 – Got Live (stereo or mono) 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1919 – Big Hits (High Tide) (UK) 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1920 - Between the Buttons 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1921 – Flowers 1995 MFSL
POCD 1922 – Their Satanic Majesties 1995 MFSL
POCD 1923 – Beggars Banquet 1995 MFSL
POCD 1924 – Through the Past Darkly (UK) 1995 MFSL
POCD 1925 - Let It Bleed 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1926 – Get Yer Ya-Ya’s Out 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1927 – Hot Rocks 1 1995 MFSL
POCD 1928 – Hot Rocks 2 1995 MFSL
POCD 1929 – More Hot Rocks 1 1995 MFSL
POCD 1930 - More Hot Rocks 2 1995 MFSL
Transitional POCD from 1991 POCD-1056, POCD-1057 (i.e. both Big Hits in US configuration) are old ABKCO, i.e. originated from 1986 ABKCO mastering
POCD 1056 - Big Hits (High Tides) (USA) 1991 OLD ABKCO
“Time is on My Side” has organ intro – “Heart of Stone” is Stereo
POCD 1057 – Through the Past Darkly 1991 (USA) OLD ABKCO
All tracks are stereo except “Paint It Black” and “Honky Tonk Woman”
Additional POCD from 1995: POCD-1936 (England’s Newest Hitmkers), POCD-1937 (Aftermath US), POCD-1931, POCD-1932 (both Big Hits in US configuration, re-issue of POCD-1056, POCD-1057) and POCD-1938/40 (The Singles Collection – The London Years) are old ABKCO
POCD 1936 – England’s Newest Hit Makers 1998 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1937 – Aftermath 1995 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1931 – Big Hits (High Tides) 1995 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1932 - Through the Past Darkly (US) 1995 (banner) OLD ABKCO
Stereo and mono February 25, 1995
POCD-1938/40 (The Singles Collection – The London Years) OLD ABKCO
Late POCD 1960 – POCD 1975/6 from December 3, 1997 – US based ABKCO catalog with old ABKCO mastering.
POCD 1960 – 12 X 5 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1961 – Now 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1962 - Out of Our Heads (no banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1963 - Decembers Children 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1964 – Big Hits (High Tide) (US) 1995 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1965 - Got Live if you Want it! (no banner) 1995 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1966 – Between the Buttons 1997 (banner) wide stereo OLD ABKCO
POCD 1968 – Their Satanic Majesties 1997 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1969 – Beggars Banquet 1997 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1970 - Through the Past Darkly 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1971 - Let It Bleed 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1972 - Get Yer Ya-Ya’s Out (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1973-74 - Hot Rocks 1997 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1975-76 - More Hot Rocks OLD ABKCO
POCD 1056 - Big Hits (High Tides) (USA) 1991 OLD ABKCO
“Time is on My Side” has organ intro – “Heart of Stone” is Stereo
POCD 1057 – Through the Past Darkly 1991 (USA) OLD ABKCO
All tracks are stereo except “Paint It Black” and “Honky Tonk Woman”
Ironbelly, did I get my list correct?
I'd like to get an image of each CD and post them.
Thanks again
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: August 5, 2021 11:41
Quote
exilestonesSorry for the delay. I am on vacations in the wild w/o reliable internet connectionQuote
ironbellyDepends on the catalog numberQuote
exilestones
I believe the POCD catalog numbers are not the MFSL wide stereo.
POCD 1911 – POCD 1930 from February 25, 1995 are digital clones of P25L 25031 – P25L 25050 series. I.e. so called ‘MFSL’.
I'm still trying to figure this out. Thank you for your patience and HELP!
Is my list below correct?
POCD 1911 – The Rolling Stones – 1995 (no banner) (london box top right) MFSL
POCD 1912 – 12 X 5 – 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1913 – No 2 – 1995 long version “Everybody Needs Somebody to Love” MFSL
POCD 1914 –NOW! – 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1915 – Out of Our Heads (USA) 1995 MFSL
POCD 1916 – December’s Children 1997 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1917 – Aftermath (UK) 1995 Out of Time (long 5:36) (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1918 – Got Live (stereo or mono) 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1919 – Big Hits (High Tide) (UK) 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1920 - Between the Buttons 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1921 – Flowers 1995 MFSL
POCD 1922 – Their Satanic Majesties 1995 MFSL
POCD 1923 – Beggars Banquet 1995 MFSL
POCD 1924 – Through the Past Darkly (UK) 1995 MFSL
POCD 1925 - Let It Bleed 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1926 – Get Yer Ya-Ya’s Out 1995 (no banner) MFSL
POCD 1927 – Hot Rocks 1 1995 MFSL
POCD 1928 – Hot Rocks 2 1995 MFSL
POCD 1929 – More Hot Rocks 1 1995 MFSL
POCD 1930 - More Hot Rocks 2 1995 MFSL
Transitional POCD from 1991 POCD-1056, POCD-1057 (i.e. both Big Hits in US configuration) are old ABKCO, i.e. originated from 1986 ABKCO mastering
POCD 1056 - Big Hits (High Tides) (USA) 1991 OLD ABKCO
“Time is on My Side” has organ intro – “Heart of Stone” is Stereo
POCD 1057 – Through the Past Darkly 1991 (USA) OLD ABKCO
All tracks are stereo except “Paint It Black” and “Honky Tonk Woman”
Additional POCD from 1995: POCD-1936 (England’s Newest Hitmkers), POCD-1937 (Aftermath US), POCD-1931, POCD-1932 (both Big Hits in US configuration, re-issue of POCD-1056, POCD-1057) and POCD-1938/40 (The Singles Collection – The London Years) are old ABKCO
POCD 1936 – England’s Newest Hit Makers 1998 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1937 – Aftermath 1995 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1931 – Big Hits (High Tides) 1995 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1932 - Through the Past Darkly (US) 1995 (banner) OLD ABKCO
Stereo and mono February 25, 1995
POCD-1938/40 (The Singles Collection – The London Years) OLD ABKCO
Late POCD 1960 – POCD 1975/6 from December 3, 1997 – US based ABKCO catalog with old ABKCO mastering.
POCD 1960 – 12 X 5 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1961 – Now 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1962 - Out of Our Heads (no banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1963 - Decembers Children 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1964 – Big Hits (High Tide) (US) 1995 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1965 - Got Live if you Want it! (no banner) 1995 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1966 – Between the Buttons 1997 (banner) wide stereo OLD ABKCO
POCD 1968 – Their Satanic Majesties 1997 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1969 – Beggars Banquet 1997 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1970 - Through the Past Darkly 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1971 - Let It Bleed 1997 (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1972 - Get Yer Ya-Ya’s Out (banner) OLD ABKCO
POCD 1973-74 - Hot Rocks 1997 OLD ABKCO
POCD 1975-76 - More Hot Rocks OLD ABKCO
POCD 1056 - Big Hits (High Tides) (USA) 1991 OLD ABKCO
“Time is on My Side” has organ intro – “Heart of Stone” is Stereo
POCD 1057 – Through the Past Darkly 1991 (USA) OLD ABKCO
All tracks are stereo except “Paint It Black” and “Honky Tonk Woman”
Ironbelly, did I get my list correct?
I'd like to get an image of each CD and post them.
Thanks again
The list is more or less correct. But for purity
POCD 1913 – No 2 – 1995 long version “Everybody Needs Somebody to Love”
POCD 1919 – Big Hits (High Tide) (UK) 1995 (no banner)
POCD 1924 – Through the Past Darkly (UK) 1995 (no banner)
These are local Japanese but not MFSL tape transfer.
POCD 1918 – Got Live 1995 (no banner) MFSL. This one is stereo only. There is no mono version for so called MFSL transfer.
I do not remember details about
POCD 1056 - Big Hits (High Tides) (USA) 1991 OLD ABKCO
“Time is on My Side” has organ intro – “Heart of Stone” is Stereo
POCD 1057 – Through the Past Darkly 1991 (USA) OLD ABKCO
All tracks are stereo except “Paint It Black” and “Honky Tonk Woman”
Need to check when I'll be back home (in appr. 3 weeks from now) but you can check your old US ABKCO CDs. Japanese versions POCD 1056 and POCD 1057 came with the same digital content.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: August 5, 2021 22:06
Quote
ironbelly
Sorry for the delay. I am on vacations in the wild w/o reliable internet connection
I could tell that you are the wild type!
The list is more or less correct. But for purity
POCD 1913 – No 2 – 1995 long version “Everybody Needs Somebody to Love”
POCD 1919 – Big Hits (High Tide) (US) 1995 (no banner)
POCD 1924 – Through the Past Darkly (UK) 1995 (no banner)
These are local Japanese but not MFSL tape transfer.
Local Japanese? You are saying these masters are not 'Old Abkco' and not 'MFSL?' This is most interesting! Are there some wide stereo tracks on POCD 1913, POCD 1919 and POCD 1924?
I remember you wrote"No one has clear information about the origin for Japanese BH (HT&GG). It seems, that A/D transfer was done locally in Japan using some tape they had in hands (probably, master tape of the LP for corresponding compilation). Track is still in wide stereo, but signal is 180o inverted with respect to that initial 'MFSL' Hot Rocks 1 + different EQ (as usual) +level shift."
It looks like there was no MFSL masters used for "Through the Past Darkly" US in the POCD series? It also looks like there was no MFSL master used for "Big Hits 2(High Tide and Green Grass)" in the POCD series either? Or do you think the Japanese tinkered with MFSL masters so much that it appears different? There's only one source of wide-stereo that I know about.
POCD 1919 Japan 1995 POCD 1924 Japan 1995
POCD 1918 – Got Live 1995 (no banner) MFSL. This one is stereo only. There is no mono version for so called MFSL transfer.
Yes, I check it. 100% stereo. Thank you
I do not remember details about
POCD 1056 - Big Hits (High Tides) (USA) 1991 OLD ABKCO
“Time is on My Side” has organ intro – “Heart of Stone” is Stereo
I have POCD 1056. It's all mono except for "Heart of Stone." A great stereo "Heart of Stone" IMHO.
POCD 1057 – Through the Past Darkly 1991 (USA) OLD ABKCO
All tracks are stereo except “Paint It Black” and “Honky Tonk Woman”
I have POCD 1057 too. I can't imagine why "Paint It Black" and "Honky Tonk Woman" are not in stereo.
Need to check when I'll be back home (in appr. 3 weeks from now) but you can check your old US ABKCO CDs. Japanese versions POCD 1056 and POCD 1057 came with the same digital content.
Good to know. Thank you.
I don't have the Old Abkco's of "Big Hits (Hide Tides and Green Grass)" US CD (NCD 1) or "Through the Past Darkly" US CD (NCD 3). Now I want them. LOL!
I could not find them in the vault :0(
I think Luke PAC refers to POCD 1057 and POCD 1056 as "odd balls." LOL!
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-06 04:46 by exilestones.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: August 6, 2021 05:17
Iornbelly,
Which CDs do you recommend for the MFSL wide-stereo mixes? I'm only asking about sound quality and no fade-ins.
From what I'm trying to understand in your posts: [forums.stevehoffman.tv]
I gather that any of the West German 1 or 2nd pressings are recommended. These pressing have the Red diagonal banner ‘DITALLY RE-MASTERED’ in the upper left corner. Am I correct?
I also gather that any of the Japanese Pressings (P25L series, P33L series and POCD series that uses the MFSL masters) are also the best?
Does the P25L series have fade-ins?
Do you think the Japanese discs mentioned have better sound than the West German CDs. I read that the Japanese CDs are clones of West German CDs but did the sound improve in the Japan CDs? Did the sound improve as time went on? In other words, did the CDs that got pressed in the 1990s have better sound than the CDs from the 1980s?
I'm trying to simplify which wide-stereo CDs have the best sound.
Thank you for your help.
Which CDs do you recommend for the MFSL wide-stereo mixes? I'm only asking about sound quality and no fade-ins.
From what I'm trying to understand in your posts: [forums.stevehoffman.tv]
I gather that any of the West German 1 or 2nd pressings are recommended. These pressing have the Red diagonal banner ‘DITALLY RE-MASTERED’ in the upper left corner. Am I correct?
I also gather that any of the Japanese Pressings (P25L series, P33L series and POCD series that uses the MFSL masters) are also the best?
Does the P25L series have fade-ins?
Do you think the Japanese discs mentioned have better sound than the West German CDs. I read that the Japanese CDs are clones of West German CDs but did the sound improve in the Japan CDs? Did the sound improve as time went on? In other words, did the CDs that got pressed in the 1990s have better sound than the CDs from the 1980s?
I'm trying to simplify which wide-stereo CDs have the best sound.
Thank you for your help.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: August 6, 2021 05:27
This is the rare West German first pressing issued in Japan with a plastic obi affixed to the case.
Disc face features the old style red-and-black London "ear" ffrr logo.
This release has the long, cold ended version of 'Tell Me' (4.05).
This copy came in a smooth edged jewel case.
Overview of pressing variations The Rolling Stones – The Rolling Stones (1964) – London 820 047-2
For the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 3a pressings the matrix 01# was used. The discs from those pressings feature the long, cold ended version of 'Tell Me' (4.05).
The discs (independently on pressing and runout) are all mono. Although misprinted STEREO on 1st and 2nd pressings.
1st pressing: The Rolling Stones, Polygram, Hanover, West Germany; Booklet - 4 pages with red banner in upper left corner, CD - red-and-black ‘ear’ ffrr logo, Made in West Germany by Polygram, GEMA, track list printed on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 01#, original mastering with long, cold-ended ‘Tell Me’ (4.05). CD misprinted STEREO. June 1984.
2nd pressing: The Rolling Stones, Polygram, Hanover; Booklet 4 pages with red banner in upper left corner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo (font in logo as for the 1 pressing), Made in West Germany by Polygram, GEMA, track list printed on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 01#, original mastering with long, cold-ended ‘Tell Me’ (4.05). CD misprinted STEREO. September 1984.
2a pressing The Rolling Stones: everything as above, slightly different font for framed logo. 1984
2b pressing The Rolling Stones - The Rolling Stones: like 2a, but with MCPS instead of GEMA. 1984-1985?
3rd pressing: The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; Booklet 4 pages with red banner in upper left corner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 01# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, original mastering with long, cold-ended ‘Tell Me’ (4.05). CD properly marked MONO, 1986.
3a pressing: CD - same as 3, Booklet 12 pages without red banner. The only pressing with proper back cover info – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1989. 7 July 1988.
3b pressing The Rolling Stones - The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 02# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1988.
3c pressing: The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red unframed new London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 02# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1989.
3d pressing: The Rolling Stones - The Rolling Stones, PDO, Germany; same as 3c but with Matrix 820 047-2 03# MADE IN W GERMANY BY PDO, probably early 1990s?
4th pressing: Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red unframed new London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 03# MADE IN GERMANY, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1992?
4a pressing: Same as pressing 4, but with old framed London logo. CD misprinted – ‘All rights of the manufacturer…’ line is missing, 1992?
5th pressing: The Rolling Stones, PMDC, Germany; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD - blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 03# MADE IN GERMANY BY PMDC, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1994
6th pressing: The Rolling Stones; Booklet 12 pages without red banner, CD – clear center, blue-and-red framed old London logo, Made in West Germany, MCPS, no track list on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 03#, alternative mastering with faded ‘Tell Me’ (3.52). Misprint on back cover – Tell Me 4.05. CD properly marked MONO. 1991
6a pressing – same as above but with new unframed London logo. Matrix and Year as yet unknown.
I found this post at [www.discogs.com]
Did you write this information? Thank you
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: August 6, 2021 22:48
Abkco NCD 3 USA - Abkco 1986 Masters (released 1986)
POCD 1057 Japan - Abkco 1986 Masters (released 1991)
POCD 1932 Japan - Abkco 1986 Masters (released 1995)
Abkco 844 089-2 Europe (released 1995) I presume the Abkco 1986 masters were used?
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: August 28, 2021 15:37
Japanese No.2, Big Hits UK and Through The Past, Darkly UK are not MFSL production. Most probably they were made in Japan locally. No further details are known.Quote
exilestones
Local Japanese? You are saying these masters are not 'Old Abkco' and not 'MFSL?' This is most interesting! Are there some wide stereo tracks on POCD 1913, POCD 1919 and POCD 1924?
In terms of digital content
No.2 P33L 25015 = P25L 25033 = POCD 1913
Big Hits UK P33L 25016 = P25L 25039 = POCD 1919
Through The Past, Darkly UK P33L 25017 = P25L 25044 = POCD 1924
These are digital clones.
No. 2
Tracks 4, 5, 7, 9 – STEREO
Tracks 1-3, 6, 8, 10-12 – MONO
Big Hits UK
Tracks 2, 3, 5, 12, 13 – STEREO
Tracks 1, 4, 6 – 11, 14 – Electronically Reproduced STEREO
Through The Past, Darkly UK
Tracks 1-4, 6-12 – STEREO
Track 5 – Electronically Reproduced STEREO
For old versions of Bigh Hits US and Through The Past, Darkly US it is always 1986 ABKCO mastering. No matter catalog number and country of origin.Quote
exilestones
It looks like there was no MFSL masters used for "Through the Past Darkly" US in the POCD series? It also looks like there was no MFSL master used for "Big Hits 2(High Tide and Green Grass)" in the POCD series either?
Regarding versions and mastering
Big Hits US, old ABKCO
Tracks 1-7, 9-12: MONO
Track 8: STEREO
Time Is On My Side with organ intro
The Past, Darkly US, old ABKCO
Tracks 1 (long version), 4, 7: MONO
Tracks 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 11: STEREO
Track 5, 10: Electronically Reproduced Stereo
Tracks 4 and 7, apparently, are folded form STEREO versions
As I said above – UK versions of Big Hits and Through The Past, Darkly are local Japanese production. No one knows the details. Judging the fact Big Hits is full of Electronically Reproduced STEREO tracks that are not available on other releases it was done in Japan and for Japan only. I was asking numerous time our vinyl guys to clear up the situation with original Japanese LPs in terms of mono/stereo/ERS but got no answer. Thus, I can not tell you for sure if they used master tapes of LPs they had in hand or tricked with MFSL tapes.Quote
exilestones
Or do you think the Japanese tinkered with MFSL masters so much that it appears different? There's only one source of wide-stereo that I know about.
For those you should look for West German CDs. You can choose any edition/re-issue with exception ofQuote
exilestones
Which CDs do you recommend for the MFSL wide-stereo mixes? I'm only asking about sound quality and no fade-ins.
The Rolling Stones [820 047-2], this one is mono only, but you should look for pressing from glass master 01 for cold ended Tell Me
Let It Bleed [820 052-2] from glass master 01 or 02. The most common one from glass master 03 is marginally different with silence trimmed in the beginning and at the end of the CD and with very minor volume/EQ adjustments for a couple of tracks.
Hot Rocks 1 [820 141-2] from glass masters 01 or 02. These came w/o fades.
That one is only about The Rolling Stones [820 047-2]. And it is all mono.
Not really. You’ll need early pressings for The Rolling Stones [820 047-2], Let It Bleed [820 052-2] and Hot Rocks 1 [820 141-2]. For the rest the re-issues are digital clones.Quote
exilestones
I gather that any of the West German 1 or 2nd pressings are recommended. These pressing have the Red diagonal banner ‘DITALLY RE-MASTERED’ in the upper left corner. Am I correct?
Depends how you determine ‘the best’. Most of Japanese discs (exceptions- No.2, December Children, Big Hits UK, Through The Past, Darkly UK and early Japanese versions of Beggars Banquet) are originated from MFSL A/D transfer. I.e. they contains the same mixes but mastered differently in terms of volume/EQ. You can prefer German or Japanese, depending on your system.Quote
exilestones
I also gather that any of the Japanese Pressings (P25L series, P33L series and POCD series that uses the MFSL masters) are also the best?
No.Quote
exilestones
Does the P25L series have fade-ins?
Japanese discs originated from the same A/D transfer, but they are not digital clones to West German CDs. Discussion WG vs. Japanese sound can cause the 3rd World War. Sound of Japanese discs is different. Sometimes the differences are subtle, the other are obvious.Quote
exilestones
Do you think the Japanese discs mentioned have better sound than the West German CDs. I read that the Japanese CDs are clones of West German CDs but did the sound improve in the Japan CDs? Did the sound improve as time went on? In other words, did the CDs that got pressed in the 1990s have better sound than the CDs from the 1980s?
The digital content of the CDs did not change. It is the same in the late 80s and early 90s. The sound supposed to be the same. Unless you can hear the differences in the sound for the CDs that are pressed from the same digital master but at different plants. It does not matter if you collect rips. Although, old Japanese JVC discs can degrade and became unplayable (I have a couple of those). Thus, collecting of physical CDs is a tricky thing
.That overview on discogs is based on my private communication. I sent that info to somebody a few years back while trying to systematize the editions of The Rolling Stone [820 047-2]. It is mostly correct. Although, a couple of ‘transitional’ pressing were discovered lately. But this does not matter much as the differences are in fine print in the booklets and some variations in matrix strings/hub imprints. Purely for hardcore collector.Quote
exilestones
This is the rare West German first pressing issued in Japan with a plastic obi affixed to the case.
Disc face features the old style red-and-black London "ear" ffrr logo.
This release has the long, cold ended version of 'Tell Me' (4.05).
This copy came in a smooth edged jewel case.
Overview of pressing variations The Rolling Stones – The Rolling Stones (1964) – London 820 047-2
For the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 3a pressings the matrix 01# was used. The discs from those pressings feature the long, cold ended version of 'Tell Me' (4.05).
The discs (independently on pressing and runout) are all mono. Although misprinted STEREO on 1st and 2nd pressings.
1st pressing: The Rolling Stones, Polygram, Hanover, West Germany; Booklet - 4 pages with red banner in upper left corner, CD - red-and-black ‘ear’ ffrr logo, Made in West Germany by Polygram, GEMA, track list printed on CD, Matrix 820 047-2 01#, original mastering with long, cold-ended ‘Tell Me’ (4.05). CD misprinted STEREO. June 1984.
…..
Did you write this information? Thank you
That edition for Japan with sticky OBI is a real thing. It was sold in Japan as import in mid-1984. This is certain.
Re: ISO: TOP Releases- Japan
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: August 31, 2021 13:19
Thank you, Ironbelly!
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