I have been checking some VGP using Audacity on my Laptop.
Some reach not over 18.000 Hz
I am told when not over 18.000 Hz than those must be considered Lossy.
I wanted to create an overview, writing it all down in an Excel.
Check the VGP again to be more precise, but now using Audacity on my PC.
Can't believe my eyes, but what was 18.000 on my Laptop surprisingly is 20.000 Hz on my PC.

Strange, but True.


The VGP in my collection are comming from trades and from torrent sites. All of them never checked by me for lossless.

The results for VGP 001 to VGP 010 are as follows:

VGP 001 V1 1972.06.24+1972.06.25 Dragon Slayers, Ft.Worth and Houston >>> 20.000 Hz
VGP 001 V2 1972.06.24+1972.06.25 Dragon Slayers, Ft.Worth and Houston >>> 20.000 Hz
VGP 001 V2 Willian Stout Dragon Slayers - on silver cd >>> 20.000 Hz
VGP 002 (SODD-12) Nasty Music (A Tour De Force) >>> 20.250 Hz
VGP 002 Nasty Music 20bit Remaster >>> 20.300 Hz
VGP 002 V1 Nasty Remixes (1st edition) >>> 20.250 Hz
VGP 003 Oakland 1969 & Marquee 1971 >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 Oakland Sixty-Nine >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 V1 1971.03.26 Oakland Sixty-Nine >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 V2 RS-692 Oakland Sixty-Nine, Limited Gold Edition >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 V3 Oakland Sixty-Nine (3rd edition) >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 004 V1 Lacerated (A Summer Romance) >>> 21.750 Hz
VGP 004 V2 Lacerated >>> 20.250 Hz
VGP 005 V1 El Mocambo 77 RS-377 10 tracks Art in white track writings >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 005 V2 1977.03.05 El Mocambo 77 9 tracks in red track writing >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 005 V3 1977.03.05 El Mocambo 77 14 tracks >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 006 Andrew's Blues >>> 14.750 Hz
VGP 007 Wonderful Wonderful Copenhagen >>> 14.100 Hz
VGP 008 V1 Stoneaged San Diego Sixty Nine TMOQ 71078 >>> 20.000 Hz
VGP 008 V2 Stoneaged San Diego Sixty Nine TMOQ 71078 >>> 20.000 Hz
VGP 009 1973.09.01 100 Years Ago, European Tour 1973 First Show Vienna - 94101 Unure it is VGP >>> 20.600 Hz
VGP 009 V1 1973.09.01 100 Years Ago - 0501W >>> 21.500 Hz
VGP 009 V2 1973.09.01 Goodnight Vienna Remastered version - 1 extra track >>> 21.500 Hz
VGP 009 V3 Tour Rehearsals + 1973.09.01 Goodnight Vienna (alternate edition) >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 010 Live at Leeds '82 >>> 21.300 Hz
VGP 010 Live at Leeds '82 >>> 21.000 Hz

The ones less than 18.000 Hz should be marked Lossy, and wonder if someone of you do have those in a lossless state.

Sorry for the ones downloading from the VGP Label/publisher, and hoping to be able to replace the lossy links with lossless ones.

This is going to be a massive job for me and only 10 done.

To make it more difficult for me ......
I had some help (after MegaUpload when down) uploading all VGP to Stonesvault.
I can only hope what others have been uploading is the same version as in my files, but maybe I must download all myself to make sure ......

Could you check the ones here less than 18.000 Hz in your own collection and when lossless upload it here in this post.
Thanks all for your help.

I continue checking but will not swear, althoug I realy would like to.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-05 17:42 by stonesmuziekfan.

Hi Jaap, I make a quick check for two VGP
- VGP 003: seems the same frequencies as yours (see below)

- VGP 006 it depend the checked track: track 1 seems to go only until 14500hz
but see the track 3 below!the frequencies are more complete...

what this mean? I didn't know!

Norbert

I always do check cd1 track3, when less than 18.000 Hz I also check track 9.

Have been thinking what and how to ask for help and will post all lossy VPG here, and cross them off the list when lossless received.

Somebody has lossless for these VGP than please upload

VGP 003 Oakland 1969 & Marquee 1971 >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 Oakland Sixty-Nine >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 V1 1971.03.26 Oakland Sixty-Nine >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 V2 RS-692 Oakland Sixty-Nine, Limited Gold Edition >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 003 V3 Oakland Sixty-Nine (3rd edition) >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 005 V1 El Mocambo 77 RS-377 10 tracks Art in white track writings >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 005 V2 1977.03.05 El Mocambo 77 9 tracks in red track writing >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 005 V3 1977.03.05 El Mocambo 77 14 tracks >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 006 Andrew's Blues >>> 14.750 Hz
VGP 007 Wonderful Wonderful Copenhagen >>> 14.100 Hz
VGP 009 V3 Tour Rehearsals + 1973.09.01 Goodnight Vienna (alternate edition) >>> 13.500 Hz
VGP 013 Preserve For Future >>> 17.750 Hz
VGP 018 1969 11 27 Stoned MSG 69 , from Eric Snow >>> 17.300 Hz
VGP 018 V2 1969.11.27 Stoned MSG 69 (HR102) - Remastered >>> 17.300 Hz
VGP 034 Summer Reruns >>> 16.600 Hz
VGP 040 V2 1973.01.21+22 In Exotic Honolulu - Gold >>> 17.600 Hz
VGP 040 V3 1973.01.21+22 In Exotic Honolulu - Gold >>> 17.700 Hz
VGP 042 Street Fighting Men In Toronto, (1972-07-15) >>> 17.500 Hz
VGP 044 V1 1970.09.23 Paris Some Like it Hot - Silver >>> 11.200 Hz
VGP 044 V2 1970.09.23 Paris Some Like It Hot - Gold >>> 17.000 Hz
VGP 067 V1 AUD 1995.07.27 Voodoo Minstrels, Espace Grammont Montpellier >>> 16.500 Hz
VGP 069 1994.08.14 Bite The Big Apple, Giants Stadium New Jersey >>> 16.100 Hz
VGP 074 1967.04.02+15 Groovin' Around (Vienna + The Hague 1967) AUD >>> 17.800 Hz


every time I stumble on some lossy ones I will add them to this list, and the one upgraded will be crossed off.

to be continued.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-05 22:10 by stonesmuziekfan.

Strange again
My VGP 006 track 1 is close to 21.000 Hz while track 3 is only 14.750 Hz track 9 shows exact same graphic as track 3
We must make a Frankenstein of our VGP 006




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-05 18:31 by stonesmuziekfan.

It's late so just a quick reply before I go to bed, I'll have a more serious look tomorrow.

Lossy mp3s tend to only go up to about 15-16kHz & then drop off to nothing very sharply. I've never seen an mp3 go up to 18kHz.

Questions that need to be asked include, 1) what was the frequency response of the tape recorders, 2) the microphones? in these early concerts.

Anything recorded off Fm radio in the early days will only go up to about 13-14kHz because that was the only bandwidth available.

Videos include lossy audio yet I have captured audio from videos that go all the way up to 20kHz which suggest non-lossy.

Quote
vox12string
It's late so just a quick reply before I go to bed, I'll have a more serious look tomorrow.

Lossy mp3s tend to only go up to about 15-16kHz & then drop off to nothing very sharply. I've never seen an mp3 go up to 18kHz.

Questions that need to be asked include, 1) what was the frequency response of the tape recorders, 2) the microphones? in these early concerts.

Anything recorded off Fm radio in the early days will only go up to about 13-14kHz because that was the only bandwidth available.

Videos include lossy audio yet I have captured audio from videos that go all the way up to 20kHz which suggest non-lossy.

Thanks, this looks promissing
After checking with my laptop I thought holy smoke .... but now with my PC the number of possible lossy went down with 75%, so it worries me less.
When the line is drawn at 17kHz, than sofar 10 out of the first 75 VGP could be considered Lossy.

Still the difference between the results with my laptop and my PC remains a question for me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-05 22:21 by stonesmuziekfan.

OK, Let's look at "Strange". Have a look at this picture of a frequency response graph. It's from "Off The Hook", Paris 1965.



At first glance you might think, ah yes, nice straight line up to 21kHz, it must be NON-lossy. NOT SO!. My records show that this is - "POST VGP079 All Those Years Ago [320mp3] Posted by: stonesmuziekfan Date: April 26, 2010 21:26"

The file IS an mp3 so what is going on. The whole graph has been shifted upwards (I don't know why) so that long straightish line should be the zero dB mark, which means that the frequency response of the whole file only goes up to about 6kHz, which makes sense as this is from a radio broadcast, & as I mentioned in my previous post, radio signals were curtailed at the upper frequencies to allow for more radio stations on the dial.

Notice that I use the "Linear" view (top left box), this stretches out the higher frequencies so that you can see what's happening there in greater detail.

VGP-003 (RS-692)
I believe this is NON-lossy. This second edition also has the March 26, 1971, Marquee Jazz Club concert added, & if you check the frequency response of some of those you will see that they're definitely Non-lossy. The 17.5kHz response of the soundboard Oakland 1969 doesn't drop off sharply, as it would if it were mp3, but rather trickles away slowly as it would for a radio recording.

Given this I would say all the VGP 003 are NON-LOSSY

VGP 005 definitely LOSSY

VGP 006 Again, a mix of studio & radio recordings & as the first track (Andrews Blues) goes all the way up to 21kHz whereas the others are from Paris radio broadcasts, I would say this is NON-LOSSY

More to come.

I'm amazed about your expertise
Much apreciated

Many bootleg silver CDs are "lossy" to start with. The frequency-band check does not necessarily mean mp3 conversion. Some "remastering" techniques can cause the same effect. Nor vice versa - some lossy recordings may not have the expected cutoff.

It's a difficult task without having the original to compare. Best test is with ears, in my opinion. And... never compress and circulate the originals, please! (But I'll take it anyway, if I don't already have it.)

Really good to see this dedicated, informative research.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-07 09:58 by HEILOOBAAS.

Thanks for all comments
I have finished checking
Found some 10 upgrades in CDrs CK
Also some upgrades in latest trades

I will leave here and put my results in the VGP section [iorr.org]