Yes, I've had enough now as well.

I've tried to be reasonable, answer your questions, etc, but it doesn't seem to be getting any of us anywhere.
I did say I wouldn't post my Remaster if that was what you wanted, apparently it is, and I am a man of my word.

Bye then.

As many people know, English is not my natural language, that's why I'm going to be short and on the safe side here (and I have read all the comments on this thread).
As a fan and collector I'm more than happy to have the chance to get the original taper's share plus the strettonbull's remaster plus the JimmyShelter's remaster. I feel free to listen to all of them, judge by myself and burn to cdrs the ones I prefer or want. Most of the time I burn one for me and the other for a friend that doesn't do downloads or one for the car and the other for my home player, but for sure I value and appreciate them all. I enjoy having and listening to all of them and the comparissions make sometimes enjoy them even better and "deeper" and make me discover "hidden" notes or moments.
I'm very grateful to all for sharing their recordings, remasters, works, reworks and covers here and everywhere!

Just back from a horrendous round of "golf" if you can even call it that. I've said pretty much everything I want to say. Keep attaching your name to other people's work within minutes of their release if you think that's the right thing to do. There are plenty of people in the taping community that understand exactly what I'm talking about and see through your so-called remasters. What is truth to me is an attack or "tedium" to you. So be it.

I really wasn't planning to come back here but I need to correct something I said earlier, when I claimed I couldn't hear a difference. I must have chosen the wrong track. I was just now listening to my recording and was in the middle of "Miss You" when I realized that it would be a good track to compare. You took a nice clean capture and added "arena sound" to it. It now sounds like I recorded it from further away. Is that what you guys mean by "presence?" Some room boominess? Sounds horrible to me and nothing like it actually did from my seat at the concert. It's fine if you like it this way. I think it just plain sucks.

Bye again.

Edit: I'm adding to this post so I can say it all at once and we don't have to have another ridiculous back and forth. I dislike what you did with my recording so much that I would like you to take my name and CQ's name off of everything - the artwork, the text docs, everything. It literally sounds like I recorded this from Section 210 instead of Section 1. Credit it to "Anonymous" if you have to, but this is not a Lostbrook tape.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-01 02:39 by Lostbrook.

This whole debate gives me douche chills.

Thanks for all the great work by all contributors on this site. Although I find it a bit hypocritical to attack someone for remastering something that was illegally recorded in the first place (ie, you don't own it either). At best, this recording became public domain the first time it was shared.

In any case, I am going to crank this killer show up, and hell, I may go play golf too.

To recap: I asked some questions in my very first post that were brushed off with "It's covered in the text file." Of course there were no details at all in the text doc about was done to the recording, so I downloaded it myself. My big mistake was using a small portion of Worried About You to compare the two, and they sounded identical to me. This pissed me off because I thought SB made some inaudible changes and slapped his name on it. Maybe that's where you think I claimed ownership of it. (I still believe it's absurd to "remaster" a high quality recording within 24 hours of its release.) Anyway, it turns out I was wrong and major changes were made that altered the sound of the recording drastically. At this point, even though I prefer not to be associated with this "remaster," it's probably too late. I would just like people to know that if you want to hear what the concert actually sounded like from my seat that night, then listen to the original and crank it up. It may surprise you but the sound at the Verizon Center is excellent on the floor. For another example, listen to my Who tape from last November, recorded from a similar location. (Avoid the matrix - it sounds terrible.) If you want a recording with "big arena" sound messed with by someone who wasn’t there and has probably never been within a hundred miles of the Verizon Center, then listen to his and tell him how great it is.

Quote
JimmyShelter
.....Our remastering of your work should not be taken as an insult to it, it just reflects the different tastes and ears that we all have.

so why not just leave the original alone and let each individual listener fiddle with their own knobs to get the recording their own "tastes and ears we all have" instead of deciding for them what that should be??..... just asking.....

Quote
Lostbrook
To recap: I asked some questions in my very first post that were brushed off with "It's covered in the text file." Of course there were no details at all in the text doc about was done to the recording, so I downloaded it myself. My big mistake was using a small portion of Worried About You to compare the two, and they sounded identical to me. This pissed me off because I thought SB made some inaudible changes and slapped his name on it. Maybe that's where you think I claimed ownership of it. (I still believe it's absurd to "remaster" a high quality recording within 24 hours of its release.) Anyway, it turns out I was wrong and major changes were made that altered the sound of the recording drastically. At this point, even though I prefer not to be associated with this "remaster," it's probably too late. I would just like people to know that if you want to hear what the concert actually sounded like from my seat that night, then listen to the original and crank it up. It may surprise you but the sound at the Verizon Center is excellent on the floor. For another example, listen to my Who tape from last November, recorded from a similar location. (Avoid the matrix - it sounds terrible.) If you want a recording with "big arena" sound messed with by someone who wasn’t there and has probably never been within a hundred miles of the Verizon Center, then listen to his and tell him how great it is.

I'll say this one more time - I remastered this for my own benefit. Others expressed a wish to hear it, so I uploaded it. If they don't like it, or prefer another version, then they delete it, it's as simple as that.

You don't own the recording, you obtained it illegally and I couldn't give a flying f*ck whether you like it or not. If you don't, then don't listen to it.

Anyway thanks for keeping this thread on page one. It would have fallen off the bottom of the page and been forgotten about if it wasn't for you.

Top post ramping.

Quote
kubacheck

Quote
JimmyShelter
.....Our remastering of your work should not be taken as an insult to it, it just reflects the different tastes and ears that we all have.

so why not just leave the original alone and let each individual listener fiddle with their own knobs to get the recording their own "tastes and ears we all have" instead of deciding for them what that should be??..... just asking.....

The original still exists, I don't decide anything for anybody, just give them another option. And most people probably don't have a 10 band parametric EQ to fiddle with anyway... just answering

Lostbrook taped the show, he decided to share his recording (a wonderful recording by the way, one of the best for ages - but thats my ears) and from my point of view it would be a sign of respect to leave his recording as it is - at least for a while.

Everything can be done but I'd ask myself if it should be done. Is it really necessary to change the original recording within a few hours?

I'd say to each it's own (equalizer)

I never said I "owned the recording," and after 38 years of taping, I'm well aware of the legal issues. I probably hit you too hard when I originally thought you merely applied your name to the recording. I tried to explain that above. I sincerely thought that the members of this web site would be interested in the accuracy of the recording. ( I even plugged this site in my taper's notes.) By your theory, it's ok to put a hundred of these "remasters" out there and it's no big deal. Let the people decide. "It's as simple as that." I disagree. I take these recordings seriously. I see yours as misinformation, akin to me starting a thread entitled "Mick Taylor secretly recorded with the Stones until 1981." Be honest - you don't remaster for your "own benefit." Your project is to immediately remaster every recording from this tour and share it with a wide audience. If you had taken two minutes to find me on this site (not for permission but for input) before rushing out your version, perhaps some of this could have been avoided. I would have tried to discourage you at first, but if you had insisted, I would have suggested that you use a very light touch. I'm sure there's nothing you would like more than for this thread to disappear so you can continue to operate without criticism, but I will respond to "douche," "hypocritical," and pictures of cute babies.

PS Thank you silkcut.

Quote
silkcut1978_
Lostbrook taped the show, he decided to share his recording (a wonderful recording by the way, one of the best for ages - but thats my ears) and from my point of view it would be a sign of respect to leave his recording as it is - at least for a while.

Everything can be done but I'd ask myself if it should be done. Is it really necessary to change the original recording within a few hours?

I'd say to each it's own (equalizer)

I've told him I won't post my remaster, because he asked me not to.
If he keeps going on then I might reconsider but at the moment it is unavailable.

And no, I don't think it is neccesary to do anything to a quality recording, I really do them for my own listening and offer them to anybody else who wants them, which people seem to.

And I suppose each to his own works both ways (well it would really, wouldn't it)

Anyway, I've got some fiddling to do with my equalizer



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 15:11 by JimmyShelter.

"I've told him I won't post my remaster, because he asked me not to."

Thank you JS. I truly do appreciate that. This has potential to turn into a reasonable debate. I hope that's not what you mean by "going on." I'm happy for others to take over, though I do realize this is your court I'm playing on.

Ok, maybe 'going on' was a little 'bitchy'

But you're still doing it as well with 'your court'.

How about we both stop it and have a reasonable debate.

Bad analogy I guess. Just a reference to me being a new member.

I'll begin - cute cat!

Nice start.
That's Claude, I always use his picture because he's much nicer to look at than I am.

I can't speak for anybody else, only for myself. But I'm sure people will chip in if they want to.

The background to my "remastering" (not totally happy with the term myself, I've heard 'cleaning', 'reworking', etc. I agree it's not technically correct, but I think people know what you mean by it):

I've been doing it for my own benefit for a long time, mostly with particularly annoying recordings, seriously unbalanced, loud hums, etc. and mostly with early 70's cassette recordings.
I never shared them, I never thought anybody would want them. But one day on a Bowie forum there was a discussion about some recording or other that ran at the wrong speed. I commented that I had speed-corrected it if anybody wanted to hear it. They did so I shared it. I'd not only corrected the speed though, I'd cleaned it up with a bit of noise reduction and EQing. People said it was good and did I have any more that I'd done. So I started sharing things there.
But I'd never bothered to do anything with more 'modern' digital recordings because I wasn't sure that there was any need.
Then it came to these recent Stones shows, I was collecting them and sending them on to some friends. Most of them sounded like they could be improved a bit with no more than a bit of EQing, so that was what I did. Trying to pass on the best sounding versions of the shows that I could for their own listening.
I offered Jaap some links to some of them for his own listening, and then he decided to post the links in the StonesVault (he asked me first). People started downloading them, so I've carried on sending them.
The rest, as they say, is history.

Thank you JS for that perfectly reasonable explanation. As I said earlier, I have many crappy recordings out there that we tried to improve, including a Bowie. There are some issues that could still be addressed with those, and I have no problem with that. This recording is way different. The raw version actually sounds better than it did that night. CQ really is a professional mastering engineer, and he knew enough to do very little with this recording. If someone had contacted me and said "X Y, and Z are wrong with your recording and it needs speed correcting," I would have had a whole different attitude, and perhaps even offered up the raw files. Did anyone notice the "static" on SFM? At first I thought it was a loose connection on my end but it's also audible on youtube vids, so it was the PA. I hope you guys trust me enough to believe it when I say that this is what it sounded like that night. The microphones I used minimize crowd and arena noise that people are used to hearing on audience recordings and it sometimes strikes them as "artificial" sounding or even "lacking presence." I had a direct line to the PA, and not by accident. I worked hard to obtain those particular seats, and even I turned down closer seats in the center section to sit on the side. I also knew that many local tapers were either not attending or did not have "stack seats" that night, so the pressure was on me big time to not blow this recording. I actually missed a lot of the show while monitoring my levels like a hawk. I never even saw them walk out on stage since I was afraid the crowd reaction would peak my levels. I haven't heard your version, but maybe knowing some of this in advance would have influenced some decisions, both in "eq'ing" and releasing. This is why the "rush to release" and the "need to remaster" is a legitimate topic. I know I flamed you guys pretty hard early on so not everyone may be receptive to what I'm now saying.

First sentence edited for clarity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 18:44 by Lostbrook.

I've got to say that all of these digital captures with quality mics are like a breathe of fresh air. And yours did stand out from the rest, because it had obviously been properly mastered.
It seems that what most people do is to raise (i presume raised, because you seldom see any clipping) the levels of each channel so that the peaks are at 0db, with no regard for the average loudness (RMS). In most cases this has left one channel louder than the other. The first thing I noticed with yours was that the loudness was the same on both channels and the peaks were set at 0.02db (if I remember correctly). So it was obvious that it had been done properly.
And this is one of the things that I've found needed doing to most of the other tapes.
I can understand that you feel a bit 'put out' that someone feels the need to change what you have worked so hard to create. And I suppose if I'm honest, that is often my first reaction. But it is never my intention to say, 'this is crap, listen to this, I've fixed it'.
strettonbull remastered a matrix I made of a recent US show, at first I thought 'did it need doing?', but when I thought about it, I realised that it wasn't really about 'needing' to be done, he was using my matrix to put his 'stamp' on it, his 'take' on it. And I was actually quite flattered that he found it good enough to want to. And I thought about, what I think is a pretty crappy thing to do, but is very popular nowadays, and that is 'remixes'.
I can't be doing with them myself, but I've noticed how many bands like the Stones actually release them on their own CD singles.

And as for flaming people, I guess we were both guilty of that, but we're both old enough to let it go. Water under the bridge.

While this may not be the best analogy, I'm plunging in. Suppose I see a famous artist painting a picture that he didn't intend to sell. I sneak up behind him and take a high-quality digital photograph and send it to my friend. He enhances my photograph slightly, we put it in a digital frame and post it online for free. I state that I had good equipment, the perfect location and that the copy is extremely close to the original. Others come along and add blue or yellow, put it in a new frame, sign their name to it, and circulate it again. I suspect students of that particular artist would prefer the first copy, unless I had my thumb in the picture.

I like this analogy even less now. Makes me feel kind of seedy for sneaking up on the guy. Maybe I should stop doing that.

Either way, floating peacefully downstream now...I think.

Edited for cheesy thumb reference



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 20:14 by Lostbrook.

So it's all you fault for recording the show in the first place.
If you hadn't, none of this would have happened.

Yes, that could be an analogy to stay away from actually.

Which is a good point though, and something that you hear quite often from artists about bootlegs of all types. We are listening to something that wasn't honed and wasn't meant to be recorded and released at all.
They might argue that a live show was to be enjoyed or experienced in context, in the moment and never meant to be recorded and analysed.

I don't know where we go with this really. Is there always an answer to everything, that pleases everybody. Probably not, I guess sometimes we just have to agree to differ and respect each others positions.

It's a moral quagmire. Are we hurting the artist or expanding the fanbase? Preserving history or consuming ear candy?

Probably

I was going to offer you a copy of my remaster, if that's not adding insult to injury. But I can't find you anywhere where I can PM you. There isn't a PM system here.

Sure. Maybe I'll upload it somewhere I just PM'd you on Dime.

I love you guys when you're all like that! =O) I just wanna kiss ya both (JimmyShelter & LostBrook & Maybe SB too) I Luv your Analogy... And I want to put my little seed in it (Sorry I don't Speake English :OP)... and it goes that way: For me Music is life, I'm a musician (Noisycian) and I download everything! Legal or not. So after saying that music is life... I know that "Recording Music" is Dead Music... When we play music, there's always something happening, a chickadee join in, my girlfriend's yellin' me to low down: that's Life! When recorded, music is dead... It can move you, but she'll will never answer to your move... I don't know if you know what I mean... But anyway...
JimmyShelter, your Matrix works move me, your chat & your cat too!
LostBrook, Your Washington recording and Story (I was in Montréal with my daughter) move me. Best Audience Recording of the 2013 tour... A classic, Dark as Welcome to NY or Jack Daniels on Tour! I love Audience recording. When they're good, as yours, it got a real feel of life, better than many soundboards...
StrettonBull, your equalizing of LostBrook's recording move me too!
(Btw: which I prefer.... If I had to keep only one, it would be Lostbrook... But I really love SB's "version" for mixing with other show while trying to make, track by track, the "best stones show of the year". Otherwise your montreal "version" is a keeper for me...
With the Rskinno stereo fake version, which is unbelievable... even if its missing 2 second of Satisfaction How Can he managed to get that big fat sound from the same poor source we all have have, and thanks God for Michael who recorded it!
Now it's time to roll on & play guitar!
Thanks everybody for all your good works (& CQ too),
You all made a grown man cry (of joy) this year!¸
Keep on Groovin'!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 22:50 by SirMuddy.

Thank you SirMuddy. And on that positive note, unless anyone has anything more to add I suggest we let this thread fade away. I really don't want to see SB's baby spit up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 23:15 by Lostbrook.

This is what it is all about to me.
People enjoying things and getting a buzz out of what people do and wanting to tell somebody about it.

That's sharing and that's community.

You've got me waffling again

I'll pass on the kiss though, thanks all the same



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 23:20 by JimmyShelter.