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Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: bassplayer617 ()
Date: July 18, 2007 21:56

StonesTod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> actually i think fans that are undisgruntable are
> actually transferring their happiness onto the
> stones...just a theory i'm working on...haven't
> polished it up as yet

That would require establishing why the happy fans would be unhappy if the Stones were not currently touring.

In turn, would the unhappy fans be happy if the Stones were NOT touring?

There's a great exercise in circular logic, if you wanna try it.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: Lukester ()
Date: July 18, 2007 21:57

bassplayer617 Wrote:
> So are YOU disgruntled, too?


Honestly bassplayer I really don't give a rat's ass what the Stones do.
No I am not disgruntled. And FrankM may be right that this private gig won't tarnish their legacy.

....and oldkr has an interesting point of view to say there "is no legacy".....well of course they have a legacy....

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: StonesTod ()
Date: July 18, 2007 21:57

like i said - it's in the incubation phase presently...when results become a little more clear and tangible i'll be sure to write a full-blown thesis....

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: Lukester ()
Date: July 18, 2007 22:00

there's your psychobabble, bassplayer

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: Glam Descendant ()
Date: July 18, 2007 22:01

>Having to pay a club fee just for a chance to buy ticket.


That's simply not true. You may choose to join the club for a shot at pre-sale tickets but you can buy tix to a show without fan club membership. I got tix to the Orpheum in the public sale.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: bassplayer617 ()
Date: July 18, 2007 22:05

So, who's gonna flush the contents down the toilet?

StonesTod, I'd recommend that you make your thesis a separate topic so we can start the cycle over again.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: StonesTod ()
Date: July 18, 2007 22:09

actually, this will probably require a dedicated website the way it's shaping up

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: July 18, 2007 22:24

Turd On The Run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The latest affront to my idealism and naiveté and
> near-inexplicable dedication to my/our favorite
> performers (i.e. the private Barcelona gig) is
> still fresh in my mind. I knew someone fortunate
> enough to be invited…a banker…nice-enough guy…but
> in my heart I was resentful and really disgusted.
> I felt like the guy in high-school who REALLY
> loves a girl - wanting her and dreaming of her and
> really loving everything about her and pouring
> heart and soul and hard-earned bread into making
> her notice me – and hearing about some
> over-privileged cad who is taking her to the prom
> and hardly knows or really appreciates her.
> Irrational, perhaps…but so it is. And then I
> thought about it and realized that my anger was
> misdirected. I shouldn’t be angry with the lucky,
> undeserving scoundrel…I should be pissed at the
> girl (the Stones)! But then…he’s richer and
> taller and handsomer and more mature and
> interesting and more socially advantageous…so can
> I even blame her (the Stones)? The eternal
> question of those stricken by unrequited love…and
> disgusted by the crass calculating commerce of a
> band already rich beyond words and bleeding
> mystique by the bucketload…
>
> When I was a young teenager back in 1974 the
> Stones released “It’s Only Rock And Roll”. The
> music was cool and glammy and sophisticated, but
> there was something strangely dispiriting about
> the title…as if the Stones were trying to tell us
> something we really didn’t wanna know. In those
> days many of us relied on the Stones to tell us
> What Was Going Down…what the deal was, so to
> speak. The Stones defined the Zeitgeist to an
> extent, and we trusted them to let us in on the
> action and Shine A Light on the meaning of it all.
>
>
> When Jagger told us about seeing the woman with a
> bleeding man in her glass we knew what he meant,
> sort of…and felt his melancholy and injured pride
> at her deceptions…and when he went to the
> barricades and railed at the King and all his
> servants, well, we knew that took courage…even
> though as a poor boy in London town all he could
> do was sing about it…and when he warned us of the
> threatening storm and that love is just a kiss
> away, we listened earnestly…and when he
> incriminated us in the killing of the Kennedy’s we
> accepted part of the blame…even the fun stuff like
> tastes good like a black girl should and only get
> my rocks off while I’m sleepin’ had
> significance…because the Stones were the Soul
> Survivors…and we hung on every word and every
> chord change as they brought harbingers of
> Apocalypse and Riots and Orgasms and illicit
> Highs. They were our Royalty…Outlaws, Pirates and
> Wisemen.
>
> So hearing that it’s only rock and roll was a bit
> dismaying. It kinda shattered my naïve teenage
> illusions of revolutions and free love and put a
> lot of us fans in our places…we were consumers and
> admirers …and willing accomplices in the Rock And
> Roll Circus…but there would be no more
> revolutions…no more Apocalypse…it was showbiz,
> baby…nothing more and nothing less…fun stuff but
> hardly ROMANTIC, ya know?
>
> So I took the hint and woke up and got with it and
> even loved THAT version of the Stones…if you can’t
> rock me, somebody will… when the whip comes down…
> we’re all starfukcers…yea…if decadence was the new
> idealism then, shit, I’m in. So it was all about
> being louche, making tons of money, screwing
> fashion models, doing the best drugs, and being a
> jet-setter and a junkie millionaire playing 3
> chord Chuck Berry derivations…well, it’s only rock
> and roll, after all…gotcha…I’ll leave the needle
> and spoon out of my menu, thank you, but the rest
> of it sounds tremendous…I’m down with that!
>
> So when the Stones turn our Rock Dreams into
> tawdry nightmares - by accepting the coin of the
> realm and entertaining a group of sponsors and
> bankers and corporate bigwigs like concubines at a
> private Palace Party - they once again Shine A
> Light on the meaning of it all and blind us with
> the necessary and unforgiving glare of the
> Truth…they shatter our Delusions and show us what
> it’s all about…What Is Going Down…what the real
> deal is, so to speak…like all those years ago…
>
> The Rolling Stones have been businessmen and
> cynics for decades now…yes, they are cruel…but
> fair…Mick is happy to stick a pen in his heart and
> spill it all over the stage for us…but he’ll set a
> damn pretty price for it…don’t forget it’s a
> business…a commodity…a product…hearts for sale,
> indeed…nothing is sacred…the Prodigal Son left the
> coop long ago…and returned as Jumping Jack
> Flash…flaunting gaudy diamond-studded teeth and
> Cocaine Eyes…they warned us over and over…It’s
> Only Rock and Roll, baby…and I’m a Fool to Cry…but
> it makes me wonder why…
>
> P.S. Next time you guys decide to sell your
> integrity and wares to the moneyed Elite for
> utterly vulgar sums remember that Myth and Legacy
> are precious and priceless things…commodities, if
> you will…and that once squandered, they are nearly
> impossible to recover…
>
> P.S.S. You could have done the same gig but in
> front of thousands of dedicated fans (and your
> moneyed sponsors too) and donated the peons’ entry
> fee to a worthy cause helping sick children or
> others less fortunate than most of us…you could
> have kept your bundle of lucre and still had our
> admiration along for the same price…
>
> …as you once asked…will all of your money buy you
> forgiveness, keep you from sickness, keep you from
> cold…? Will all of your money keep you from
> sadness, keep you from madness…when you’re down in
> the hole? Maybe so...maybe you know more than the
> rest of us...

Great post...but i have to say in 75/78 they was still considered dirty....by the rabbits....and in 1980 the hardrockers thought ER was dirty disco!!but it really was a comming out of the seventies..alive...song...tellin us promises were never made to keep..a very good end of the century song...but is was not over yet...you get UNDERCOVER...''Right''!!!And about IORR thats a deep song about self destructing life style.....oh yeah that gig was a big mistake.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: Andithurts ()
Date: July 18, 2007 23:35

TOTR this is the best post I've ever read on this board.
I totally agree. I'm a fan since 1978 and I really love this band. I know JJF is a warhorse but even in 2007 they can play it still evil and dirty. And that's what rolling stones music should be. So how could they play this music in front of 500 bankers? It's a shame. I think they don't notice what their music (their legacy) means to the real (hardcore?) fans. The Stones have finally lost their attitude and that makes a grown man cry.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: noughties ()
Date: July 19, 2007 00:56

Somebody wrote:

"In the 60s /70s a show for bankers would have been there last show!!!"

Why has it suddenly become fashionable to talk of those two decades as one? They have always been very, very different in attitudes and feel! Just think of those half assed decadent 70s compared to the 60s, where evvything was new?!

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: ryanpow ()
Date: July 19, 2007 02:12

Its interesting that when the stones peaked and were reallly captured the zietgiest of the times, it was inbetween these two persiods. From 1968-72. The Nixon Years.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: sweetcharmedlife ()
Date: July 19, 2007 04:11

StonesTod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> actually i think fans that are undisgruntable are
> actually transferring their happiness onto the
> stones...just a theory i'm working on...haven't
> polished it up as yet


Post more often you might get it polished.winking smiley

"It's just some friends of mine and they're busting down the door"

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: flowerchild ()
Date: July 19, 2007 07:49

f*** the stones. They're greedy bastards. There is absolutely no sane or reasonable argument anyone could make that they need more money or they have a right to do private shows or charge ridiculous ticket prices because we live in a capatilist society or god forbid, they have the "obligation" to do it. That's bullshit.

Also, for everyone who says Rock and Roll is just about "getting girls and making money", Yeah, that's true...if you're talking about bad music. However, the stones did use to actually have some damn good records and concerts that had emotion, passion and yes even some idealism. Unforunately, they haven't had that for over 30 years.

And how come no one has mentioned that they played a show for goddamn bankers?!?!? I mean that's like the lowest of the low...people who make money off of money. It's insulting and embarressing.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: FrankM ()
Date: July 19, 2007 08:08

flowerchild Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> f*** the stones. They're greedy bastards. There is
> absolutely no sane or reasonable argument anyone
> could make that they need more money or they have
> a right to do private shows or charge ridiculous
> ticket prices because we live in a capatilist
> society or god forbid, they have the "obligation"
> to do it. That's bullshit.
>
> Also, for everyone who says Rock and Roll is just
> about "getting girls and making money", Yeah,
> that's true...if you're talking about bad music.
> However, the stones did use to actually have some
> damn good records and concerts that had emotion,
> passion and yes even some idealism. Unforunately,
> they haven't had that for over 30 years.
>
> And how come no one has mentioned that they played
> a show for goddamn bankers?!?!? I mean that's like
> the lowest of the low...people who make money off
> of money. It's insulting and embarressing.


Who the hell are you? Do the Stones have to run every show past you to get approval? Take a valium man and then maybe you will realize you are in no position to dictate what they can or can't do. If you don't like what they do then take a walk and stop buying records/going to concerts.

But don't be so obnoxious as to think The Stones have no right to do a private show to go along with the hundreds of public shows they do. Get a grip man. If you don't think the Stones have done anything decent in the last thirty years then you must be smoking too much weed. Time to clean up buddy.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: cc ()
Date: July 19, 2007 08:36

FrankM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who the hell are you? Do the Stones have to run
> every show past you to get approval?
> Time to clean up buddy.

yeah flowerchild, didn't you know all posts must be approved by FrankM? get it right next time, and get a haircut, too...

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: FrankM ()
Date: July 19, 2007 08:42

cc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FrankM Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Who the hell are you? Do the Stones have to run
> > every show past you to get approval?
> > Time to clean up buddy.
>
> yeah flowerchild, didn't you know all posts must
> be approved by FrankM? get it right next time, and
> get a haircut, too...

Ah you think too much of me cc. I'm not a big shot here. Like Al Pacino said in Donnie Brasco- "I'm just a spoke on a wheel". The point I was trying to make is that Mick Jagger wouldn't try to dictate to some of the musician types here how many private and public shows they can perform.

Some of you have made valid points but it gets to a point where it is just pure whining. How many private shows have they done? Do you think they are the only artist that does them?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-20 01:59 by FrankM.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: pay pay ()
Date: July 19, 2007 10:02

What we have here is that you people are trying to hang on to something that never really existed. You are angry at the Rolling Stones for something they have no control over. To you, them playing a show for bankers is an insult because you feel its a sell out thing for them to do. It really has nothing to do with the Stones and everything to do with each fans personal story.

When you were young and started listening to the Stones, you were full of idea's and plans about how YOUR life was going to be different. You had ideals and you weren't going to be like your parents, with their problems and hang ups. It wasn't going to be home by 10:00pm and off to bed for you, no way. Keith wouldn't do that, and you won't either.

Life started throwing challenges at you....a job, a wife, kids. You said ok, Keith has kids so I'm cool. Still in the game. If things get too out of hand, just throw on some Stones music.Works every time. Until, that is, you lose your house. Or your job. The wife leaves you, takes the rest of your stuff. Then you realise deep down inside that you are not the guy you thought you were. How the hell is Sticky Fingers going to get me out of this one? It won't, and Black and Blue isn't much help either.

Its at this point that you realise you are you, not Keith Richards. So you start living thru him. He's never let you down before. All that he does you put your little gold star on. Only thing is, Keith don't give a shit. He didn't ask you to worship him. He may be glad you do, but he didn't request it. He's busy being himself. He has problems of his own. He has no time to sit on the mountain and wait for you haul your rapidly widening ass up there so he can dispense Keithisms to you.

You start to see things a little differently. You look at all your hero's a second time. Oh no, they are selling out.They are hanging with the enemy. Bankers? Those are the guys that took my house and didn't give me the car loan! Bastards! How can Mick, Keith, Ronnie and Charlie do this to me? I thought we were tight! I bought all your stuff and loved you for so long and this is the thanks I get.

Then you start thinking about the legacy. You say "Boy are they screwing up big-time".The only legacy they really have is their music,not where or why it was performed. It doesn't matter if they play to a club filled with bird watchers. Jumpin Jack Flash will still be the same song. Bankers can be Stones fans too. Many people were mad at Alice Cooper in the early 70's when he started playing golf. Then he showed up on the Muppet Show and it was goodbye Alice Cooper, hello boring Vincent Furnier. Caught In A Dream still kicks major ass, though.


See, its not the Stones legacy thats in danger, its yours.They let you down,Not because they played for bankers, but because they did something you wouldn't have done. Only problem is,they are the Stones and you are you.We seek them out, they don't look for us. Keith never bought a ticket to see me.They are in the drivers seat, we go along for the ride. Just because they drive by an ugly house doesn't mean the trip wasn't worth it.

And remember this:It is, indeed, only rock & roll.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: FrankM ()
Date: July 19, 2007 10:46

Well said pay pay. You hit the nail on the head.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: pay pay ()
Date: July 19, 2007 11:12

The funny thing is, I'm 40 years old and still a rebel. I push authority every chance I get. I still love to push buttons, I still have ideals. I also have a house and a wife.For now. I live my life by my own rules the best I can. Although the Stones are hero's to me I don't live through them. They can play to whoever they want to. The banker thing doesn't offend me at all. If it did, it would be my problem, not theirs.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: cc ()
Date: July 19, 2007 16:52

pay pay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The funny thing is, I'm 40 years old and still a
> rebel. I push authority every chance I get. I
> still love to push buttons, I still have ideals. I
> also have a house and a wife.For now. I live my
> life by my own rules the best I can. Although the
> Stones are hero's to me I don't live through them.
> They can play to whoever they want to. The banker
> thing doesn't offend me at all. If it did, it
> would be my problem, not theirs.

wow, modesty becomes you. I'm starting to want to be you, instead of keith...

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: pay pay ()
Date: July 19, 2007 22:26

Hell, I don't even want to be me. My life is a mess and a half. I'm at the worst point (so far) of my life. If you want to be me long enough to solve my problems, then have at it. Just don't touch my wife.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: Erik_Snow ()
Date: July 19, 2007 22:43

-



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-19 23:40 by Erik_Snow.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: LOGIE ()
Date: July 20, 2007 00:24

Great post by Turd, but equally excellent response by Pay Pay (at his best).

...don't really know to articulate my feelings on this subject, but I'll try and get there.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: stone-relics ()
Date: July 20, 2007 00:34

Not really wasting it, as they cant, they are too great in the past...Now everyone knows they are a corporate entity...looking out for the best interests of "The Company"...everyone needs money, and they are making the best of it...not surprising at all..if you cant deal with it, dont listen, type here, or get a new band...

Stones rule...

JR

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: ryanpow ()
Date: July 20, 2007 00:42

pay pay Wrote:
>
> Life started throwing challenges at you....a job,
> a wife, kids. You said ok, Keith has kids so I'm
> cool. Still in the game. If things get too out of
> hand, just throw on some Stones music.Works every
> time. Until, that is, you lose your house. Or your
> job. The wife leaves you, takes the rest of your
> stuff. Then you realise deep down inside that you
> are not the guy you thought you were. How the hell
> is Sticky Fingers going to get me out of this one?
> It won't, and Black and Blue isn't much help
> either.


Your misrepresenting and trivializing the importance of listening to music, what people get out of it and why they listen.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-20 00:44 by ryanpow.

Re: Why do the Stones debase their legacy so frivolously?
Posted by: ifyacantrockme ()
Date: July 20, 2007 05:02

They are more than a rock band at this point. Anyone that is still living on the idealism of what rock musicians say and do in their 20's-30's and expect these same guys to live and act that way into their 60's and beyond is just not thinking clearly.

People change and acquire different interests over time. A rock band can be a total pain in the ass to deal with (speaking from experience with my 14 yr band), it's a lot of work dealing with meglamaniacs and people bent on self destruction, and people that don't have the same work ethic.

I think the fact the Stones are still playing and carrying their legacy the same as Eubie Blake, BB King and the elder blues musicians is perfect for them. These musicians are not classically trained, it's only rock and roll.

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