Here's Bill's bass playing for 2000 man:

[www.esnips.com]

Shows he can play with the best of them!



It's a different sound because it's most likely his Vox Wyman bass, but the licks are as fast and pumping as anything on Jigsaw Puzzle.

As for the small hands issue... I have small hands and managed to play a variety of borrowed bass's in a band for two years! Sometimes it was uncomfortable, but nothing was unplayable due to the size of my hands.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 04:43 by His Majesty.

I don't think it sounds like Keith's Bass playing at all. And very much like Bill's. Those 5ths and octaves are typical Bill. IMO Keith would have written a totally different style line had he performed the Bass line himself.

The Bassline actually reminds me of "2000 Lightyears". And I do not agree that a bass played by Bill can not be recorded and produced (even in '68) to sound like a real man's Bass.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 07:01 by ChelseaDrugstore.

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it sounds like Keith's Bass playing
> at all. And very much like Bill's. Those 5ths and
> octaves are typical Bill. IMO Keith would have
> written a totally different style line had he
> performed the Bass line himself.

The sound is very Fender bass though and it's likeness in parts to the bass line for the slow Sympathy for the Devil as seen in One Plus One is interesting.

There is the photo of Bill playing the fender so he obviously used it!

But it's too easy to get caught up in imagined scenarios instead of taking in the fact that Keith has said he played the slide and we also have a CD full of a session in which we don't hear Brian's name or voice and the electric guitar is very tight to Keith's voice/directions and is used to stop takes etc.

Takes 7 - 9:
[www.esnips.com]


> The Bassline actually reminds me of "2000
> Lightyears". And I do not agree that a bass played
> by Bill can not be recorded and produced (even in
> '68) to sound like a real man's Bass.

Here's Bill's bass taken from a run through(pre take 1) of 2000 Light Years From Home.

[www.esnips.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 11:35 by His Majesty.

Greetings from the road. Haven't posted in ages but I love this place. It's like a church I can open up the laptop and have wherever I am - a Stones church.

Let me settle this hash for you all. Firstly, MathisJ and Majesty are gods of knowledge. Whatever your name was who claims to have seen the master tape and tracking sheet, cough it up or leave town. Talk is cheap. Now who played slide on JSP? For damn sure? Keith! No doubt about it.

How do I know that for a surer fact beyond what you all have already contributed to the discussion? Very simple. I've heard that very CD of the 14 takes and the slide playing is persistently, consistently, godawful. There is only one Rolling Stone ever who gets to sound this godawful in a studio with tape running for as long as he damn well pleases until he gets it right, and that's Keith Richard(s).

Hey, B4 the bootleg, I thought it was Brian too, and Keith on the other guitar and it being a live track, more or less. I reckon that's what they wanted the listener to think, too. But no way is it anyone but Keith on slide.

The bass? You got me there. I think it's Wyman and that his phrasing was shaped by the lack of a rhythm guitar on the basic track, a very rare Stones move indeed. Yeah, it sounds like the Fender bass, and coming from a guy who has small hands himself and has done bass gigs with a borrowed Fender P-bass, the choppiness and choice of notes is just the sort of thing I'd go for if I couldn't swoop and dive on my cozy little Vox bass like I wanted to, like maybe because the @#$%& on slide demanded I play this bass and I kinda have to do what he says at sessions because he's one half of a hitmaking money pit and I'm just the geezer bass player who contents himself with pussy to balm the pangs of creative frustration. But that's just my opinion.

Cheers!

Tommy

Can anyone repost the 1989 classic albums radio doc?
Would love to hear it

vudicus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone repost the 1989 classic albums radio
> doc?
> Would love to hear it

If you follow the linked page I posted before, then scroll down you'll find it's still available to download. Just the first 1 or 2 downlaod links posted are dead.

LOL, of all the proof the best point seems to be that nobody xcept Keith gets to clobber around a Stones studio for 14 takes playing such godawful Slide.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL, of all the proof the best point seems to be
> that nobody xcept Keith gets to clobber around a
> Stones studio for 14 takes playing such godawful
> Slide.

hahaha, yeah!

14 and then some...

:-()

Man do I wish I was face to face with some of the people in this thread. Because this thread is quickly approaching 'Dead Horse' status. I have listene d to it a few times and I am also wavering. Bass - really COULD be Keith, there are passages on the Slide that sound too good for Keith, somewhere in minute 4 in between the midrange of the piano it sounds like another acoustic guitar creeps in..
Enough (??)

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If Keith indeed plays bass, it must be Jones on
> > slide.
>
>
> Mathijs, are you serious here? You have
> vehemently denied it's Jones playing slide on JSP
> for years. That would be quite an admission on
> your part.

Yes I am serious. But I am still quite sure the slide on the released version is Keith, as it is just so totally Keith's trademark style.

But I have my doubts on the bass. I am just surprised that Wyman can play like this, and play it on a long scale Fender bass. But I must admit that I am not a great expert on the pre-'68 Stones, and I think Wyman just surprised me here. For example, the bass in the intro of We Love You sounds 100% Keith to me (again the style is 'pumping'), but according to all sources it's Bill.

I need some more time to listen to the outtakes with headphones, and compare the bass with more work of Wyman from this period.

There's something else that surprised me: the acoustic guitar on the outtakes is really well played, it sounds like a skilled player to me. I never knew Jagger was such a good player already in 1968.

Mathijs

Well, sticking with the Bass question, this is what made some doubt cree into my head: I listened to entire BB album with headphones. Nowhere on the whole album does the Bass have this type of distinct sound. It is recorded differently, and is probably a different Bass guitar too. The style is what had me with Bill; the fifths an all. But one of the telltales of Bill's playing in the Stones is his constant attack a millisecond BEHIND the beat. All I had to do is listen to every other song on BB to hear it loud and clear. Bill, Keith and Charlie have talked about the Stones' engine. But even without their quotes it is plain to hear. Bill plaY around the beat. He is not the most disciplined player; i.e. he likes to keep himself intersted and often comes back around to a verse playing som,ething slightly varied.
So I wondred if it was Bill at all. But as good as Keith can be on Bass, after careful listening one can usually tell that this is basically a guitar player doing the Bass. The bassist on JP IMO is a Bass player. Someone who is comfortable on Bass. I guess I also say, it just surpris3es me that it's Bill.
The acoustic is Keith though.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

Oh man this is funny! :-()

The power of the bass playing seems to be causing great confusion here!

It's not like Bill hasn't played powerful basslines in songs prior to Jigsaw Puzzle, there are many classic pumping basslines by him right from the start!

As far as I am aware, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Street Fighting Man and Sympathy for the Devil are confirmed basslines by Keith from 1968.

...............................................


Anyway, as I've said many times here the evidence telling us it's Keith playing slide is pretty strong:


1) Firstly and most importantly... Keith tells us it's him!

Sure he gets muddled sometimes, but when has he claimed to have played something he didn't? If he played bass, I'm sure he would have said so by now.

2) The session CD shows that the slide player stops takes!

Taking in to consideration that it's Keith who is controlling the session, doing all the counting in and shouting out "no, no!" etc, this speaks volumes to me. The slide playing ties in with his vocal directions on many occasions.

3) The slide on the released version and the session cd is completely void of any Elmore James type licks that are the basis for Brian's slide playing. The lack of vibrato in both the released version and session takes is also telling, Brian ALWAYS used vibrato in his slide playing! All the classic Brian slide parts have vibrato throughout.

........

Over zealous 'Brian fans' can mock how Keith talks in that documentary, but he talks about all the songs with great recall, about the writing process, the recording of the album and also about who played what.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-02 03:15 by His Majesty.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Over zealous 'Brian fans' can mock how Keith talks
> in that documentary, but he talks about all the
> songs with great recall, about the writing
> process, the recording of the album and also about
> who played what.


Well oh well oh well! I must admit defeat here. Listening to all the respective outtakes you have kindly provided here, HM, I must say, with sunken heart, that the slide on the released version of JSP is probably Keith and not Brian. Whoever played on the 14 outtakes is DEFINITELY the one who played on the released version. Even on take nine, which was indeed terrible to listen to, one already hears some of the definitive lines, the strummed bass notes and wailing chorus notes, of the released version. Take 12 is a marked improvement over takes 7-9 as it begins to flesh out nicely. The reason why I now believe it's not Brian is that he probably would not have stuck around for so many, laborious takes to cut the track. Realistically, it probably would have only taken Brian 3 to 4 takes, much like on No Expectations. This is a sad day for me but I will survive . . .

Neptune, you're a class act.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neptune, you're a class act.


Thanks CD. The outtakes were very revealing, clearly showing Keith taking his time in working out his slide part. I just don't see Brian being so patient like that, especially in 1968 when he was not getting along well with Mick and Keith. Anyway, it is my hope that the surviving Stones along with perhaps ALO can work on publishing a book fully detailing the history of the Stones' recording sessions much like the Beatles have, describing who played what, what instruments were used, etc.

One of the great things about the Beatles' Recording history is that they always stayed in Abbey Road, with George Martin's supervision apparently behaved pretty well. So things were kept organized and for our benefit everything was recorded and noted for posterity with British care. I have read the big book on Beatles'sessions. It has every day, every session, every overdub, every mixing session, remix, everything. Often have I wished the Stones had a record like that. I am sure most studio keep records but they used their own mobile many times, or they took over the whole cellblock and no records were kept at all.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

The Beatles did play out in other studios on occasion, but yup the organisation at Abbey Road was a blessing for future saddo anoraks! The who played what thing is still a "jigsaw puzzle" with them though.

Hey neptune, don't take accepting that it's not Brian as some kind of defeat!? That's not what it's about... For years I believed it was Keith on bass, Brian on woodwind lol.

All we need now is for another session CD to come along from take 15 onwards in which we'll hear someone asking Keith to turn his bass down and Brian asking for his guitar to be turned up in the cans!!! :-()

That would totally fry my overly analytical brain!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-02 11:55 by His Majesty.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason why I now believe it's not
> Brian is that he probably would not have stuck
> around for so many, laborious takes to cut the
> track. Realistically, it probably would have only
> taken Brian 3 to 4 takes, much like on No
> Expectations. This is a sad day for me but I will
> survive . . .

Neptune, I admire your guts to admit you changed your mind. BUT -the reason you give is a bit strange in my opinion, as it's not a objective opinion. In order to eshtablish the slide player we need real prove (either on tape or from interviews, or through comparative analysing), and not through subjective reasons as "I don't see Brian stuck around for so long".

The thing is: I can imagine Brian laying there slumped on a chair, stoned out of his mind on hash and coke, and just playing along for hours and hours. It's quite bad what he plays, but nobody bothers to tell him to go away. This is exactly what Al Kooper tells in the Let it Bleed book, that there was no anomosity beeen the Stones, that Brian's days were counted but he was still accepted as a force within the Stones.

Mathijs

Why does discussions about Beggars Banquet erea always end up with who the Fuc-k is Brain Jones

__________________________

NICOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does discussions about Beggars Banquet erea
> always end up with who the Fuc-k is Brain Jones

Eh?

Saying he doesn't play slide on Jigsaw Puzzle isn't putting him down in anyway!

Just read back three years discus(t)ions about Beggars versus BJ His Majesty

__________________________

NICOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just read back three years discus(t)ions about
> Beggars versus BJ His Majesty

I know what you mean, but is that happeneing here?

Anyway, Brian more than likely plays on about 7 or 8 tracks from the album, plus the addition of the single, he's on Child of the Moon for sure...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-03 01:46 by His Majesty.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thing is: I can imagine Brian laying there
> slumped on a chair, stoned out of his mind on hash
> and coke, and just playing along for hours and
> hours. It's quite bad what he plays, but nobody
> bothers to tell him to go away.


Maybe you have a valid point, Mathijs, and perhaps it could be a very stoned and drunk Brian noodling around in some cubicle, slowly working his part. All I know is that whoever is playing on these outtakes played on the released version, since take 12 already sounds like the released cut. So, is it Brian playing on the outtakes, or Keith? Supposedly, it only took Brian 3 to 4 takes to get down his slide on No Expectations. Keith was notorious for taking a VERY LONG time to get his respective parts down on a track, especially by 1968. He lived in the studio whereas Brian would spend maybe an hour or two to do a part and then head out for the next party. But maybe I'm wrong about that. I know Jimmy Miller and Brian got along well and Miller did pursuade Brian to contribute to BB and be patient. Anyway, I'm still leaning towards Keith here, but now you have made me less convinced it's him. I am really confused . . .

It isn't Brian because the slide playing is completely unlike Brian's slide playing and.. keith has told us it's keith! :-() Easy!

This is the main point of Mathijs post:

"In order to eshtablish the slide player we need real prove (either on tape or from interviews, or through comparative analysing)..."

Unless we have quotes about or footage of a session using imagined scenes isn't a good way to work out who plays what because it's based on fantasy, or at the very least on events that have nothing to do with the particular song/session in question.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-03 03:50 by His Majesty.

Listen for your self .................Keith talks about BB (time 60 min.)

And think for your self

[download.yousendit.com]

__________________________

Well Keith talks about a lot and I love his one liners from the 70s. I wouldnt believe him for a sec of course but that's cool.
I think it's Keith on slide on JSP. And I like his style on Midnight Rambler. He's insecure and that gives a creepy feeling to the song.

A good track for comparing the slide on Jigsaw Puzzle with is Still A Fool.

[www.esnips.com]

That's Brian for sure, Elmore James licks and vibrato a plenty.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-03 13:00 by His Majesty.

LA FORUM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well Keith talks about a lot and I love his one
> liners from the 70s. I wouldnt believe him for a
> sec of course but that's cool.

You disbelieve everything he says!? Far out!

Yeah lol

LA FORUM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah lol

So maybe it's really Nicky Hopkins who plays mellotron on 2000 light years from home then? Slide on No Expectations... maybe that's Dave Mason huh?

Keith says they're both Brian!