Because you claim that the quality of the US shows was "so bad" and "musically it isn't good anymore". If you didn't attend any, what makes you such an expert on the subject? A DVD and the opinions of SIX of your friends??? That is laughable! Do you know what percentage of the number who DID attend and DID enjoy the shows you and they account for?

Beast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because you claim that the quality of the US shows
> was "so bad" and "musically it isn't good
> anymore". If you didn't attend any, what makes
> you such an expert on the subject? A DVD and the
> opinions of SIX of your friends??? That is
> laughable! Do you know what percentage of the
> number who DID attend and DID enjoy the shows you
> and they account for?


This is an old discussion. Yes, just as we hardcore fans can judge the quality of the 1972 tour by listening to mediocre audience tapes you can judge this current tour by watching DVD's. When I see Ron Wood struggling to play even the simpliest riffs, with eyes that are blurred by drugs and alcohol, when I see Keith Richards struggling to even remember the name of the song he has to play -I know enough. Watch the MSG DVD. Anyone who thinks this is a good show is stark raving mad.

Mathijs

I've been to 5 Shows in the States this year and I found it awesome.(I will go at least to 5 shows in Europe 2006) I think they played very well, but I'm not a musician like the Great Mathijs. I've seen only one positive comment of Mathijs al these years I read his comments. That was about Vredenburg. Strange.... I do think Mathijs that lots of your comments make sence, if it's about technical stuff, like things about guitars and so on. When it is about playing by the Stones, it's always negative, sounding like the Stones need one or two replacements on the guitar. They need Mathijs. I have to admit, you can play guitar very well. But the Stones without Keith and Ronnie and with Mathijs will not drown as many people.

I am afraid I must agree with Mathijs, the Arena venue, in combination with the steep prices and the poor feeling I am getting from the US shows, I doubt if I will go to the Arena next year. Indeed, if they would have chosen the Ahoy, and perhaps even the Gelredome, I would reconsider. I think they lost it as a band since the Licks tour. Thanks to the considerable skills of Jagger they keep it somewhat together on stage. Otherwise, they seem bored, lazy, and tired, and certainly a lot less serious with regards to their artistic heritage and what they used to stand for. Certainly Keith who really seems to take it easy but actually gives me the creeps when I see him playing with Willie nelson and other, elderly musicians, more true to their roots and also much better musicians right now. Ron has always had too much of a Rod Stewart/Faces pop influence on the Stones, and it hasnt gotten any better. I dont think we would notice nowadays if both Keith and Ron actually dont play on stage. They are or were a hard rocking blues band. They sold black music to the world and made their own brand. Yes, Las Vegas is currently not far from the thruth. Middle of the road neither. I think the first thing the Stones sold out this tour was their music and their fans, rather than the concerts.

I would change my mind if they played We Love You and Have You Seen Your Mother

Tss tss, saw the Stones twice this tour at the Hollywood Bowl and it rocked like hell. More guitars than ever....

THIS IS THE BEST TOUR SINCE 81. I saw them in 50-60 times and a few clubs (2002-03) also so I think I'm entitled to tell everyone what a wonderfull tour this is.

I already bought a few venues for Europe but I most certainly will not go to the Arena again because of the very bad accoustics. Will take Rotterdam when tix are available and rest asured, they will play rotterdam!

BTw I also heard Matthijs play, and I didn't like it at all. Wouldn't make it to Vegas.... ;-) just my 2 cents.

Mathijs, says...

(1) “I had a drink with 6 hard core Stones fans last week-end, and NOBODY had bought tickets...”

Probably it’s of no consequence whatever if the Stones ‘ll play to 3.5, to 4, or to 4.5 million people on this tour. The main think is to see if Mathijs and 6 his friends had bought tickets. Great statistical method.

(2) “Check the US leg of the tour: they do ONE big show in every major town, and the rest of the tour is arena's and smaller size stadiums, and average of 20.000 capacity each.”

Probably U2 who played ONLY arenas in US is a decadent band too. Great method of valuation. Tell me Mathijs, how many of your favourite 70s boots were recording in big stadiums?

(3) “The Stones aren't the multi-million selling band anymore, who play for millions of people worldwide”

“Anymore”??? Excuse me, but in the “glory days” of the seventies the Stones were touring very often for 300,000, 500,000, or 800,000 people on every round. After the one and only “long break” 1978- 81 they had attract 3.5- 4 million of people. During 1981/82 tour of course. They ‘ll attract the same number of people –approximately- on this tour, after a break of two years only (2003-05). In the 2005-06 and with so high frequency of tours during the last 10 years, malicious guy! And you consider this musical and sociological miracle as a kind of “unnailing”!

(4) “What happened in Holland has nothing to do with a Dutch mentallity of any kind in my opinion. It's a simple matter of the price being to high for something that isn't so interesting anymore.”

Probably in the other countries their performances for some enigmatic reasons are still very “intersesting” or the tickets are very cheap! Com’on Mathijs, you know very well that if people were sharing your unreasonable assertions about the quality of the Stones concerts, the stadiums would be half- empty, even with 20 Euro ticket prices. And everyone who hardly affort these prices don’t buy or don’t buy immediately. Even he believes that the Stones are still the best live act in the planet. As they are, of course!

(5) “One can get the feeling that some people on this board live in fantasy land.”

Great self- criticism Mathijs! Also, some people live in 1972 and 1978…











and Beggars Banquet #5. After 5 decades, 22 years after Undercover's #4, 16 years after Dirty Work's #4, honestly i don't see any distruction if ABB gets #5 or #6, during an week domineted by two "monster- sellers" of rap (it's 2005, don't forget it).
I think the stability of the Stones still is a little miracle and that element seems clearer in the Europe. Look at the other rock "veterans" (except Macca). I just saw "The Complete NME album charts". Bob Dylan and Neil Young once toped charts even in UK. "Harvest" #1 in 1972. In the summer of 1978 Dylan's "Street Legal" got #2, higher than "Some Girls" #3 (Then #1 was the soundtrack of Saturday Night Fever, of course)! Now you rarely can see artists like these on charts. The Stones still are on top 10, almost everywhere.

ABB is a marvellous album. The charts have nothing to do with the quality of an album: Emotional Rescue got #1 (UK) and #1 (USA) but Beggars Banquet #3 and # 5. Just enjoy the album and the tour.


John r wrote: "Where are all these stadiums full of fans who roared after BOMH & ONNYA?"

Jack Knife wrote :"Why don't people who spend $160 to go to a show want to spend $14 for a new album of terrific new material that's gotten great reviews?"

Guys, the Stones is a "monster" as live act, not as albums sellers. Everyone knows that. Even two of their classic albums didn't got #1. In the USA Let It Bleed got #3 and Beggars Banquet #5. After 5 decades, 22 years after Undercover's #4, 16 years after Dirty Work's #4, honestly i don't see any distruction if ABB gets #5 or #6, during an week domineted by two "monster-

SORRY, MISTAKE, MISTAKE!!!

Forget everything you read after "Great self- criticism Mathijs! Also, some people live in 1972 and 1978…"

Mistake, copy and paste on an older text...

Jos, please, aware of what are you talking to us!! You say "they lost it as a band". You describe a horrible band. But you "would reconsider" if they would have chosen other venue in Holland. And would change your mind if they played two rare songs. God...

Christiaan Wrote:
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>
> Mathijs. I have to admit, you can play guitar very
> well.

Don't forget that the live audience opinion doesn't count. Watch him on DVD instead and then you'll really know what you're talking about. :-)




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-20 12:16 by Beast.

stickydion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bjornulf wrote "They tour to be seen by as many
> people as possible."
>
> Bv, then the prices should be lower. And they
> should do more stadium shows in South America
> where the demand is strong. The tickets for River
> Plate Stadium sold immediately. Why not a third
> (atleast) concert there? Gazza's explanation is
> the only explanation i can find out: because the
> tickets in South America are cheaper, so they
> prefer to play another arena in USA. Your
> explanation?
>

I think the original quote should go: "They tour to be seen as many wealthy people as possible".

What can a poor boy do? Not at least attend to a Rolling Stones concert. The Stones has the richest "fans" in the world. Just like Frank Sinatra once did.

- Doxa

To Mathijs,

What caused your bitterness?

The way you play (FTS gigs in Hoorn and Panama which btw were more than fantastic) makes me believe that you you dedicated a great deal of your (musically active) life on studying the bands every note. Surely you must have loved the band while at it.

Lately your posts are so bitter.

I don't have the musical knowledge/background to judge the guys performances as you can, but I'm happy that they still tour and that I get another chance to see them a few times.

Man, when I first got turned on by the Stones in 76 or so there were years (until 82) when I feared I wouldn't live to see the stones perform ever.

Things change. The 2005 Stones are not the 1972 Stones. I even tend to think that the quality of them playing is more constant now than it was in the 70s. Prices change. In stead of an album selling band they are now makning more money from sponsored world tours. So What?

Ok guys,

I think the main thing in Netherlands is ticket price in COMBINATION with the poor sound quality of the venue. Putting 1,4 million euro's into a concrete bathtub won't make it sound better. It's the concrete structure thats responsible for the bad sound. Anything short of putting woodpanals or curtains on the concrete won't change a thing. Certainly not putting sound absorbing materials on the roof. Come on guys, it's not the roof!

Dutch people have got a lot coming their way next year. Reforms in healthcare cause healthcare expenses to double for most people. Prices for electricity and gas is up bigtime. Tax reforms that won't make you richer. First thing people will stop spending on is luxury. And visiting concerts is luxury!

Just my thought on the subject. Prices and sound quality are the reasons why I won't be in the Arena next year!

I took me some time but i finally read all the four pages of rubbish.

As fot the slow sales in Holland. IMO it has to do with two things:
1. The high ticket prices. I'm the only big stones fan among my friends. Because i play the stones all the time everybody got to know there music better and starting to like a lot more. They all said if they come to Holland again they would like to go with yme becuase they like there music and they have to see them at least one in your life time. Now, here is the punch line. this additude is the same as 90 % of the audience in a stadium. I said ok i'll buy the tickets, they're 103 euro or 114 euro if you want to be up front. They all replied with the same awnser, "No way i'm paying that much money for a concert. I would love to see them ones but not for that much money". Now, my friends have an age from 25 'till 35 and all have good jobs and no kids. So, at least in my inviroment, it is not a discussion of can i afford it but they simply think it is to much money for a concert, EVEN if it are the stones!
2. They milked out the concept. I don't know how many concerts they have played during the Steel Wheels and Voodoo Lounge tours but i would guess it is somewhere around three or four stadium shows which would make it around 200.000 people per tour. In '98 they played the Amsterdam Arena FIVE times (250.000), the Hague Malieveld (85.000), Groningen '99 (80.000) and Landgraaf (85.000). In 2003 they played the Kuip in Rotterdam twice (100.000), the Ahoy (10.000), Vredenburg (2.000) and the Amsterdam arena twice (100.000). This in a small country of 15 million people!!!! Now, the majority of the crowd wants to see the stones ones and if they like it they will go the another show on the next tour.
On the B2B tour they played for 500.000 people and on the Licks tour the played for 212.000 poeple. Almost everybody (except my friends :-() who whants to see them has seen them at least ones and probably twice. They don't have the need to see them another time next year.

Notice the decline in concert attendance, '98/'99 500.000 poeple, 2003 212.000 and '06 so far 100.000 people. Its halved every tour!!!!!!!!!!


Cheers,
Wuudy

One thing that annoys me in this thread, the one of the Chilli Pepper remarks, almost all the threads Mathijs replies and many many others is that everybody gets so offensive if someone says something slightly negative about the stones.
It is a discussion board not a board where you can only praise the band. People have different opinions, that's what makes it fun! Learn to respect that some people are dissapointed or glorified by the stones!!!!

Cheers,
Wuudy

Sorry Wuudy, but Landgraaf (1999) may have a capacity of some 80,000, but they weren't there that concert. I figure about 40-45,000.

But this doesn't really changes your point of the decline in attendance in Holland.

Christiaan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
But the Stones without Keith and Ronnie and
with Mathijs will not drown as many people.

Typo of the year!




----------------------------
"Music is the frozen tapioca in the ice chest of history."

"Shit!... No shit, awright!"

Does anyone know the number of tickets sold so far to the Amsterdam shows?

JK Wrote:
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> Does anyone know the number of tickets sold so far
> to the Amsterdam shows?

I think about 60.000 so far. 50.000 the first show, 10.000 the second. There are still field tickets.

"Jos, please, aware of what are you talking to us!! You say "they lost it as a band". You describe a horrible band. But you "would reconsider" if they would have chosen other venue in Holland. And would change your mind if they played two rare songs. God... "

Well dont take it too seriously

However, I have been a longtime fan of the Stones, and my criticism is valid too, and unfortunately thats the way I feel lately. If I say Ahoy or Gelredome, I mean a different setlist. With the two songs, I mean more adventeurism. Better to be a good arena act than a lousy stadiumfiller. Still, I will probably end up seeing them again.

Thanks Wolter.

I hope someone in the RS organisation will read BV, Gazza and Wuudy posts. At least it could help for expected more venues this summer.

Well to be honest I don't worry much about the ticket sales. If they play 2 or 5 shows in The Netherlands it is not a big worry for me. I am kind of selfish. Like people are selfish if they don't want to pay 100 Euro to see the Stones in A.dam Arena. Well then there must be something else they like that have a higher value than the Stones at 100 Euro. So the Stonesd will then play another show in Spain, Scandinavia, London or wherever, and everybody is happy. Right?

I think people need to get a Stones tour in the right perspectice. They used to play 10 shows in Japan. Great. Then 5 shows and then less in Tokyo. Now they are bookig lots of venues other places in japan, and I am sure they will all sell out. Oslo had problem selling out Valle Hovin with 40,000 tickets in Norway 1998. Only 32,000 sold. So then they book Bergen 20,000 at double price and they are gone in 30 minutes. The people who organize the Stones tours are the world's most professional people, and they put on sale shows where people want to see them. This is a stadium tour, so we will get lots of stadium shows. If Dutch people are waiting for Ahoy to happen they will have to wait for a long time.

One more thing. If you live in The Netherlands you can get to a Stones show in another country in less than 8 hours. Probably less than 4 hours. If you live in Norway and not central like me, you can drive for 24 or 48 hours and you are still in Norway. So adding a lot of shows in The Netherlands is probably not top priority for the Stones unless there is a demand. One time I went to a Stones show in Germany Ruhr area, think it was Gelsenkirchen, and I drove to Leiden Holland, very easy. So it's not a big deal.

Bjornulf

Well said, Bjornulf.
For these reason, the show in Valladolid is a real risk. It's near to Madrid (two hours driving) and the North of Spain have another two choices to see the Stones, Madrid (easiest to travel than any other city in Spain) and Porto. To atenuate the risk, tickets for Valladolid will be at low prices.

But a show in the south of Spain, like Jerez is a sure success. For that reason, Valladolid is confirmed and Jerez is waiting for the tickets sales. (70.000 tickets was sold for Madrid and Barcelona the first three days).

You are very spoiled in Spain..... Pfff....

Maybe the Stones play in Lyon as is rumoured just before Nice instead Jerez....

Hum... I don't believe it....

Great post BV.

I think this post goes for other countries as well. Do you see a second concert in Paris, Brussels, Milano, Barcelona? No

I think they don't want to play more concerts. Remember they are 60 nowadays!