well why then Bjornulf?
And yes for the second show you still can get field ticks en for the first there are tix too
And its not just dutch, Germany too, and that's their biggest European market. France is selling slower, and even Barca and Brno

rik

heartbreaker ron (IP Logged)


It's also in the middle of our summer vacation, a lot of people will be out of the country. Stones are important to me but a vacation with my family is even more important.

Think you're right. The timing isn't very good. If the shows were in august like the last tour they would have been sold out.

I'm going to several shows but NOT the bluddy Arena; this counts for many other fans too.
The promoter (MOJO) gambled and lost IMO, they just have some dirty deal with the Arena...

Arnaud wrote :
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"what about the 2 french shows....NICE is not full...still 7000 seats /50000....
qu'en penses tu ?"


Paris has been sold out within 5 days which never happened before. Thus, they have 2 days ago created a new type of tickets to fill in more : Field / Seating places. It's cat4/tribune. I think today they will sell toilets seats. Re -Nice,
the show is to take place at the worst moment, when all people in the region will be on vacation : beginning of August. Thus, the remaining seats will be sold to tourists without any doubt. Field ix are not that expensive : 64 Euros.
As a reminder, Marseille 2003 , audience : 60,000 was an amazing show. And easily sold out.

Yes, PARIS is sold out (75 000 / 80 000 tickets... ). They have added some more tickets in a new section...

About the concert in NICE : Yesterday, there was a very nice newspaper article about the concert the Stones will give. It says that the tickets were selling VERY WELL and that it WILL be sold out. At last, and not the least, it also said that there were a lot of YOUNG PEOPLE BUYING THE TICKETS !!


So, who says the tickets are selling poorly ?

I think there are some amateur statitical people here. Even if field tickets do show up from time to time, and also other tickets, these places are sold out. Paris. Brussels. And so on. It is still half a year or more until they play, so I would not be surprised that some places are 100% sold out and others only 80% sold out. But saying there is emty stadiums is totally wrong.

Why Holland is selling slower than others? Because Dutch people are smarter. When it comes to money. Beer is sold by 1/4 liters only. Why? Cheaper. Lower price. More fresh. To take a leak you have to pay. Everywhere. Why? Because it is an expense. Dutch people take more care of their hard earned money. So when A.dam, ArenA is on sale and you have had campaigns asking to play de Kuip, and also there are rumours about other venues in the north, south and east, many people wait to get them closer, better, cheaper, better sound less travel etc. The Stones have played 5 shows every tour in the Netherlands, so no wonder people assume there will be more shows. But surprise surprise, if A.dam arena don't sell fast they might skip the plans for more shows and do them in Spain or Germany instead. Or other places.

Bjornulf

bv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think there are some amateur statitical people
> here. Even if field tickets do show up from time
> to time, and also other tickets, these places are
> sold out. Paris. Brussels. And so on. It is still
> half a year or more until they play, so I would
> not be surprised that some places are 100% sold
> out and others only 80% sold out. But saying there
> is emty stadiums is totally wrong.
>
> Why Holland is selling slower than others? Because
> Dutch people are smarter. When it comes to money.
> Beer is sold by 1/4 liters only. Why? Cheaper.
> Lower price. More fresh. To take a leak you have
> to pay. Everywhere. Why? Because it is an expense.
> Dutch people take more care of their hard earned
> money. So when A.dam, ArenA is on sale and you
> have had campaigns asking to play de Kuip, and
> also there are rumours about other venues in the
> north, south and east, many people wait to get
> them closer, better, cheaper, better sound less
> travel etc. The Stones have played 5 shows every
> tour in the Netherlands, so no wonder people
> assume there will be more shows. But surprise
> surprise, if A.dam arena don't sell fast they
> might skip the plans for more shows and do them in
> Spain or Germany instead. Or other places.
>
> Bjornulf

Sorry Bjornulf, but what about bad statistics? I think the Stones are playing less concerts everywhere and selling less tickets over time. I think mainly because of the time between the Licks tour and ABB. Also the prices are higher. I kind a like it, it easier to get tickets. But don't play the bad statistics card here.

The Dutch want quality and go to Brussels, Koln, London and elsewhere! Fact.

All in all various reasons seem to be responsible for less ticket sales in Holland. These reasons mainly have influence on most of 'regular' people not buying tickets. For real fans it's different of course, but as we all know, out of 50,000 people, 48,000 of them are not hardcore fans.

1. Ticket prices, of course the prices have influence on demand
2. The Amsterdam Arena is not the most favourite place for concerts
3. They only booked Amsterdam so far, so there's also the traveling aspect for people living further away
3. The dates (july 30 and aug 1): it's summer holiday then
4. The frequency of concerts (every few years), so a lot of people have seen them lately
5. Poor sales of A Bigger Bang, if they had released a masterpiece (in terms of sales) it would increase the demand for tickets
6. Reviews: the Stones are in a way considered as a Vegas act indeed by the media

I do agree. Dutch people are smarter 'cause they smoke weed and visit hookers every now and then.
They enjoy life and don't worry too much like the miserable geezers in the rest of Europe do.

Saintmick wrote :
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Sorry Bjornulf, but what about bad statistics? I think the Stones are playing less concerts everywhere and selling less tickets over time"

Not true. ABB will sell more than Licks, excluding South America not visited during Licks.

Mathijs - as usually - a bit exaggarates to get a maximal effect but I think he is right. This constant touring and milking out the past with increasing ticket prices does have the effect of decreasing their magic. The people who just want to see the legendary band and hear those well-known hits, is getting tired and disinterested, I think. The demand is satisfied. I think that is the reason why The Cohl Circus is quite willing to go new places where to find "virgin" audiences that haven't seen the living miracle yet. That was the reason I think why Finland was included in Voodoo Lounge Tour - for the very first time in 25 years! The stadium was sold out in few hours. In 1998 it was sold out again, but it took months. In 2003 sales were so bad that they needed to to add ZZ Top to the bill to make it somehow. The demand is totally satisfied here, the babyboomers have seen their teenage idols, everybody who has interested in seeing "Greatest Rock and Roll Band In THe World" have done it, and with the quality of the product decreasing and the the ticket prices increasing, "no one" is very interested seeing them "one more last time". While Nokia (etc.) have found a different idea how to please its staff, so it is no wonder that there will no Finland concert in Bigger Bang Tour.

I hope everyone sees that I am not talking hard-core Rolling Stones fans here - you and I - but the masses and the corporations that are the real target of Michael Cohl and The Rolling Stones. They are really milking out the market and testing how far they can go until they seriously flop (or die). Viva Las Vegas!

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-19 13:35 by Doxa.

Doxa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Viva Las Vegas!

> - Doxa

Good, honest post. Except for "Viva Las Vegas" I don't agree with the Stones being a vegas act.

If the Stones were into making money they would have played Chicago, NYC, Philly and Boston every half year, then the rest of the year LA and Las Vegas. But they tour to be seen by as many people as possible.

Licks was a very special tour with theatre, arena and stadium. A big waste of time if you look into the calendar and know there are only a limited number of days available. With this new tour 2005/2006 it is stadium only. Some people got spoiled on the last tour and want them back into the small venue. This will not happen. This is the tour for the many fans.

Bjornulf

But lucky for us they are not into making money...
I think this post will go on for a while :-)

PS: eventually they will sell out all the stadiums. It will just take some more time than usual

phd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All this disaffection from the dutch people,
> viewed from Paris, is very strange. A study school
> case for me. How can that group who sold out
> faster than in any country in the world, cannot
> sell out 2 shows within nearly 2 weeks.


they'll sell out most of the shows OK, its just that with the high prices, it will take a lot longer than it usually does.

Its a lot of money to ask most people to fork out coming up to Christmas, dont forget. A few years ago, the ticket prices werent that prohibitive so even if a tour was announced in Nov/Dec, paying £40 or so for a ticket was no big deal.

Saintmick wrote "the Stones are in a way considered as a Vegas act indeed by the media".
I don't think so. The Stones are considered as a Vegas act by some fans. According to these fans the band became a Vegas act since 1989, right? But since then the Stones have attract 22 million people at their concerts (please add 1.2m from the US leg of this tour for the time being). So the big audiences don't share the nagging about Vegas act (totaly meaningless talk, in my opinion) or ...they like it!

About the ticket sales:

The calendar says now "December 2005". The real question is "how many tickets", not "how fast". I'm sure the Stones will sell in Europe between 90% and 100%, even with these annoying ticket prices. People often drow incongruous comparisons between the speed of the tickets sales nowadays and the speed of the sales in 1990, 1995 or 1998. Now the tickets are much more expensive (unfortunately). Also, in many cases the speed of the sales has to do with how huge the lust for seeing the Stones is. But the lust is proportional to time: since 1994 the frenquency of the tours is very high: 4th round in 11 years. So a Stones concert isn't a "rare act" anymore. The speed of the sales is not a figure of popularity but a figure of eagerness (or a measure of how the crowds can affort the expensive tickets!): if this tour was the first after 5 or 8 years, every venue would be sell out after two weeks. But this tour is the first after just two years. I repeat, the question is "how many", not "how fast". I remember the same talk about "poor" and slow sales before the american leg of this tour. Who believes now that it was an unssuccesful leg?

Realy, how many people were going to the Stones concerts in the "glory days" of late sixties and seventies and how many go today to see them? Who else (artist or band) could attract 4 million people worldwide just 2 years after another big tour ? We have to admit that the so expensive tickets are measures of their egoism. The fact that the Stones fill stadiums with these ticket prices is not also a measure of their popularity?

Bjornulf wrote "They tour to be seen by as many people as possible."

Bv, then the prices should be lower. And they should do more stadium shows in South America where the demand is strong. The tickets for River Plate Stadium sold immediately. Why not a third (atleast) concert there? Gazza's explanation is the only explanation i can find out: because the tickets in South America are cheaper, so they prefer to play another arena in USA. Your explanation?

Very well said, Stickydion.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The price simply is too high for the Stones anno
> 2005 in the Arena. They are not that mythical band
> anymore, they have become a Las Vegas band with a
> lousy live act. It just seems nobody is interested
> in them anymore.
>
> Mathijs

You personally have obviously become seriously disenchanted with the Stones. Fair enough, you've obviously got your reasons. Couldn't agree with you though that they're not that "mythical band" anymore. That's EXACTLY what they are, and that's in large why hordes of people love them and go to see them. People here seem to be getting very hung up on the fact that certain quantities of tickets aren't being shifted within certain time frames - as if that in itself is the one and only true indicator of the band's actual appeal today. There are SO many other factors in play, that just because the same volume of tickets hasn't gone within the same period of time for any given venue as when they last played there - you cannot firmly conclude from this that they've lost their appeal You certainly can't QUANTIFY it. For a start, these shows are 6-8 months away. The acid test will be - what does the venue look like on the day ? Empty seats or not ? If so, what proportion ?

Secondly, as for being a Las Vegas band with a lousy live act ? What kind of a statement is that ? They're not the same band as they were in what a lot of people (you included no doubt) perceive as their heyday, late sixties into the early/mid seventies perhaps. So what ? Does that make them unworthy of being seen in public today ? Does it make them unfit to be heard today ? Does it detract from the enormous pleasure that huge numbers of people still seem to get from seeing them perform live today ? Are the renditions of the songs they perform today any less appealing to those present than different renditions were to audiences in the past ? In my opinion - no.

Accept it: the Stones aren't what they used to be for sure. However, they're still there, they still entertain us with a respectable degree of conviction, they still TRY, they're still PROUD, and lets not forget - they're bloody mortal like the rest of us. I think we should applaud them and be extraordinarily proud of them and grateful to them for still being part of our lives - that is to say availing themselves to us therough the medium of live performance.

Why do you spend your time replying to Mathijs?? I can't understand it.

The Stones will sold out all the shows in Europe, as they are doing since forty years ago. For example, Why do you say Paris isn't sold out? Because they have 700 tickets with bad visibility to sell? Really do you think is important to sell 700 tickets in a stadium with 80.000 capacity?

StonesLicks2002 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you spend your time replying to Mathijs?? I
> can't understand it.
>
Good question. I don't have a good answer, it just seemed like a good idea at the time !

You're right though, they will pretty much sell out everywhere. By the time the shows actually happen, there won't be many unoccupied seats in the house. And the seats that are unoccupied will be crap seats anyweay, that no-one in their right mind would buy to see any show at all, a Stones show or any other.

The Stade France is a good example. Can anybody imagine what is the reason to buy a bad visibility seat around two miles from stage, at ground level for 80 euros?? well, the Stones will sold out Paris shows, including these bad and expensive seats.

StonesLicks2002,

-The Stade de France IS sold out.

-They are NOT selling 700 tickets with bad visiblity, but 200.

bjornulf, you don't have to defend slow sales, it won't harm you

StonesLicks2002 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you spend your time replying to Mathijs?? I
> can't understand it.
>
Cause he is entitled to have his opinion. You don't have to agree with him, and you don't have to reply either. But it's kinda cheap to tell people not to reply, because it's worthless or whatever. This is a discussion board, and Mathijs at least has some very well argumented opnions to share. He never offends anyone. I admit he isn't as positive as most of us, but reading his comments makes you think about certain subjects concerning the Stones. I like that...

"I think we should applaud them and be extraordinarily proud of them and grateful to them for still being part of our lives"

That's what exactly i feel, paulywaul. Thanks for your post.

Reading all reactions one can get the feeling that some people on this board live in fantasy land. I know Bjornulf as a clever and nice guy, but his theory about the Dutch being "smart" when it comes to money must be the most rediculous post of the last year. Why are you defending the Stones so much Bjornulf? The Stones are a multinational corporation with just one purpuse: make as much money as possible. Of course, this is the sole purpose of any corporation. Why do you protect this as much as you do? What is your gain here?

Some say that I am proven wrong as "at the end of 2006 they "will have played for 4 million people, just like in 1981". Well, no. Of course, the Stones are still a big draw in music. Tens of thousand people still want to see them. But, time really has changed. Check the US leg of the tour: they do ONE big show in every major town, and the rest of the tour is arena's and smaller size stadiums, and average of 20.000 capacity each. The days of four times Shea stadium, JFK Stadium, Sun Devil Bowl or whatever are gone. The Stones aren't the multi-million selling band anymore, who play for millions of people world wide.

What happened in Holland has nothing to do with a Dutch mentallity of any kind in my opinion. It's a simple matter of the price being to high for something that isn't so interesting anymore. Bjornulf says that we expect a clubshow like the last time, but that a clubshow gains nothing for the Stones. Of course, this is complete rubbish. By doing a clubshow, the Stones raised a hype in Europe: this was THE Stones tour you had to see. No matter what price or what effort, you HAD to be there. No, financially a clubshow isn't interesting, but with one clubshow they sold out all other shows in Holland.

Further, What I notice with the people I know -all fans of the Stones- is that the quality of the US shows is so bad, nobody wants to spend a lot of money this time. The MSG 2005 show circulated among my friends, and ALL responded with "no way I will pay 115 euro to see THIS show". Musically it just isn't good anymore, and I won't even mention the set list. I know it isn't a decent example, but I had a drink with 6 hard core Stones fans last week-end, and NOBODY had bought tickets...

Mathijs

How many US shows did YOU go to?

Beast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many US shows did YOU go to?

This tour? Never. I have seen them in the US a couple of times in 1999.

But what has this question to do with my last post?

Mathijs

Is that nessecary? A good audience tape will also do, if you have good ears I think. (To form an opinion wether something is good or not so good)
Good discussion anyway!