It puzzles me that some countries still think they can keep this one out by closing their borders with each other.

Ain't going to work ....waste of time . We're all getting this one I think.

Quote
Spud
It puzzles me that some countries still think they can keep this one out by closing their borders with each other.

Ain't going to work ....waste of time . We're all getting this one I think.

I do agree 100%. At this stage, the only things that will save the health system are:

- Vaccination
- Masks
- Restrictions

Omicron numbers will double every week most places. By mid January there will be more rules everywhere, simply because hospitals will not be able to handle all those who are weak, old or not vaccinated. Some will say "I told you", others will still wait and see. Happy New Year!

Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 14:22 by bv.

Agree. Omicron it’s unstoppable but manageable through vaccinations and restrictions. It will take care of further immunization of the worlds population but impacting health systems and leaving many more desds, many preventable.
But it will come and go. I’m more optimistic about 2022.
Stay safe everyone.

Quote
slewan

Quote
bv
Norway have a high level of vaccination because we do not force people to vaccinate. It is all up to yourself. I think we have something like 92% of all adults above 18 years old vaccinated, and 80% above age 12 and up. There have been talks about forcing vaccine, but every time that is talked about, by press or some populist politicians, then the health authorities do point at countries with low vaccination percentage, where a lot more force is being used, scaring people away.

If there are 30% or 40% of the people with no vaccination in an area, it must be due to lack or information or trust. We had that with immigrants from Africa, Asia and East Europe in Norway. By information and using mosques and local communities, also by telling them how many are in hospital and dead from covid-19 from their cultural groups in our country, they understand and do take vaccination at a higher degree now.

Vaccine has gotten into politics and religion some places. It is sad, but you can not force religious or fanatics people into vaccination, it will just lead to hate, segregation and lack of trust. Not the right way to build unity.

well, people in Norway seem to be more rational than in other place. In Germany for example vaccination rates are high in the Northwestern parts of the country and low in the south Western and the Eastern parts. What seems to unite those people who refuse vaccination is a general distrust in science, politics, expertise, and facts etc. German sociologists coined the term 'Misstrauensgemeinschaft' (community of distrust) to discribe the phenomenon because the only things that unites these people is distrust in nearly everything. Beside shared distrust they are completely heterogen ranging from far right wing people, neonazis to anthrophosphists, libertariens, evangelicalist, former hippies etc. and not to forget: pure nihilists who are against everything.


And interessting aspect about mandatory vaccination might be that it might enable at least some people who spoke out against vaccination to get vaccinated without losing their face. They just can retreat and say: I'm against vaccination but what can you do when it's mandatory? That way the don't have to admid that they changed their mind and got vaccinated.

The people and culture in Norway, I assume, are very different than in the US. That is a factor. What works here may not work there and vise versa. That clearly is a part of it.

That's certainly a factor . The US in many ways is its own world.

The UK, in terms of it's popular views and mentalities. is much more like Norway I suspect.

Quote
Spud
That's certainly a factor . The US in many ways is its own world.

The UK, in terms of it's popular views and mentalities. is much more like Norway I suspect.

Not trying to derail this thread, but just to emphasize the cultural differences and mentalities between the US and Norway. Compare gun violence between the two countries. Sorry to talk about something negative. Now back to Covid…

-Het Parool, Friday 31 December 2021.


The approach to the coronavirus: 'Not much has changed since the plague'


The plague, also known as the Black Death, emerged in the fourteenth century and would claim millions of lives in the centuries that followed. “They already understood in the Middle Ages that to prevent a spread it was crucial to act quickly. For example, cities were practically closed off, and the import of linen and fruit was banned, because the disease was thought to spread through goods and people,” said Weeda.

Just like with the people who have now been diagnosed with corona, plague sufferers were quarantined. “They had to stay inside for 40 days and a bundle of straw was hung on the facade so people could see that the residents were infected,” Weeda says. Later, plague houses and hospitals were built. There were even special chapels so that infected people could still go to church.”


Hygiene measures were also taken. The water in which clothes of plague victims had been washed had to be disposed of separately and waste was cleared in cities. During a plague outbreak, there were special ordinances to keep the city clean,” says Weeda, who specializes in the effect of medical knowledge on society.


In recent days, shaking hands has been banned in many places in the Netherlands to reduce the chance of the coronavirus spreading. Weeda: “In the Middle Ages people mainly shook hands when concluding a treaty or contract, or to seal peace. This probably didn't happen when greeted."

Many historical sources speak of gloves that were distributed by the city government to ushers and officials who had a lot of contact with others. “People with leprosy were also given gloves by the city council, which happened in Bruges, among other places.”

Another similarity between tackling the plague and the coronavirus: it came with a price. Weeda: “Even then they realized that a balance had to be found between economic and medical interests.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 16:38 by TheflyingDutchman.

Since we all have days off, this book is an interesting read.

Barbara Tuchman: A Distant Mirror.

Quote
slewan

Quote
bv
Norway have a high level of vaccination because we do not force people to vaccinate. It is all up to yourself. I think we have something like 92% of all adults above 18 years old vaccinated, and 80% above age 12 and up. There have been talks about forcing vaccine, but every time that is talked about, by press or some populist politicians, then the health authorities do point at countries with low vaccination percentage, where a lot more force is being used, scaring people away.

If there are 30% or 40% of the people with no vaccination in an area, it must be due to lack or information or trust. We had that with immigrants from Africa, Asia and East Europe in Norway. By information and using mosques and local communities, also by telling them how many are in hospital and dead from covid-19 from their cultural groups in our country, they understand and do take vaccination at a higher degree now.

Vaccine has gotten into politics and religion some places. It is sad, but you can not force religious or fanatics people into vaccination, it will just lead to hate, segregation and lack of trust. Not the right way to build unity.

well, people in Norway seem to be more rational than in other place. In Germany for example vaccination rates are high in the Northwestern parts of the country and low in the south Western and the Eastern parts. What seems to unite those people who refuse vaccination is a general distrust in science, politics, expertise, and facts etc. German sociologists coined the term 'Misstrauensgemeinschaft' (community of distrust) to discribe the phenomenon because the only things that unites these people is distrust in nearly everything. Beside shared distrust they are completely heterogen ranging from far right wing people, neonazis to anthrophosphists, libertariens, evangelicalist, former hippies etc. and not to forget: pure nihilists who are against everything.


And interessting aspect about mandatory vaccination might be that it might enable at least some people who spoke out against vaccination to get vaccinated without losing their face. They just can retreat and say: I'm against vaccination but what can you do when it's mandatory? That way the don't have to admid that they changed their mind and got vaccinated.

Funny, I actually know several people that have exactly this attitude. "I'm totally against the jab, but I want to be able to travel, so what am I gonna do?", and so they get vaccinated.

It's like for them, being able to have their cake and eat it. They're 'badass' because they're antivaxx but they have an excuse to get it because they want to continue living their high-falutin lifestyle.

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
-Het Parool, Friday 31 December 2021.
The approach to the coronavirus: 'Not much has changed since the plague'

Same things apply with regards to transmission but:

In the pre-antibiotic era (1900 through 1941), mortality among those infected with plague in the United States was 66%.

Mortality for Corona is under 1%, among the vulnerable groups, much less for healthy individuals.

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
skytrench

Quote
treaclefingers
I think it's more about them thinking, "I only care about myself and don't give a sh*t about anyone else".

And in this unusual time, it's even more about 'being right' than even caring about themselves.

Extremism is never a good thing.

Would you recommend vaccinating a minor when it won't prevent them getting infected nor infecting others? It may reduce the probabilities overall and even that requires repeated vaccinations over the course of a year. Even vaccinated, I could not feel safe around them, because they could still transmit.

I believe you would recommend vaccinating them for the overall good of society, but to me that is extreme. I give a sh*t about them and could only justify it for vulnerable kids. Long term effects of the vaccines are not known yet.

So, do you 'give a sh*t' about kids that die or have other bad outcomes because of the virus, or are they 'collateral damage' in your fear that there may be a long term outcome from taking a vaccine?

Just curious because your jumping up and down so hard defending children on the one hand, yet not addressing the issue of them dying or having long term bad outcomes themselves when getting sick with the virus. I have children, and weighing the risks, it was a no brainer. With anything there is a risk so it always makes you a bit nervous, but when looked at in totality, it was a NO-brainer.

Are you against vaccinations altogether for children? It's a reasonable question, because some people are.

BUT, if you're not, then why this one? The MRNa's have been tested for over 10 years, on other diseases, most notably cancer. Why is this your hill to die on?

I have nothing against vaccinations in general. Why I am against vaccinating kids against Corona, would be a repetition of my previous post. The issue of children without vulnerabilities dying of Corona is pretty non-existent and weighing the risks could not end up as a No-brainer conclusion, but to each his own.

Quote
skytrench

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
skytrench

Quote
treaclefingers
I think it's more about them thinking, "I only care about myself and don't give a sh*t about anyone else".

And in this unusual time, it's even more about 'being right' than even caring about themselves.

Extremism is never a good thing.

Would you recommend vaccinating a minor when it won't prevent them getting infected nor infecting others? It may reduce the probabilities overall and even that requires repeated vaccinations over the course of a year. Even vaccinated, I could not feel safe around them, because they could still transmit.

I believe you would recommend vaccinating them for the overall good of society, but to me that is extreme. I give a sh*t about them and could only justify it for vulnerable kids. Long term effects of the vaccines are not known yet.

So, do you 'give a sh*t' about kids that die or have other bad outcomes because of the virus, or are they 'collateral damage' in your fear that there may be a long term outcome from taking a vaccine?

Just curious because your jumping up and down so hard defending children on the one hand, yet not addressing the issue of them dying or having long term bad outcomes themselves when getting sick with the virus. I have children, and weighing the risks, it was a no brainer. With anything there is a risk so it always makes you a bit nervous, but when looked at in totality, it was a NO-brainer.

Are you against vaccinations altogether for children? It's a reasonable question, because some people are.

BUT, if you're not, then why this one? The MRNa's have been tested for over 10 years, on other diseases, most notably cancer. Why is this your hill to die on?

I have nothing against vaccinations in general. Why I am against vaccinating kids against Corona, would be a repetition of my previous post. The issue of children without vulnerabilities dying of Corona is pretty non-existent and weighing the risks could not end up as a No-brainer conclusion, but to each his own.

That's not true, so I guess that is our point of disagreement. Thanks for articulating your POV clearly as that helps with my understanding. Don't get me wrong, every time my kids get something jabbed into their arm in the back of my mind I'm thinking "but what if", and I'm in a mild cold sweat about it.

But the alternative isn't acceptable. It's about risk mitigation and for me, I'm just trying to make the best judgement using all available info.

Try to imagine the other situation, which is to get the vaccine yourself, but to not vaccine your children, and having one or more end up in the hospital because of COVID, or worse.

Because that is the far likelier outcome than a bad reaction to a jab.

Quote
skytrench

Mortality for Corona is under 1%, among the vulnerable groups, much less for healthy individuals.

Ahem! Where did you get that from?

Early on during the pandemic (see the first few pages of this thread), it was well documented that the mortality rate was far above the 0.1% annual flu mortality rate. For covid-19 there was estimates of 0.7% mortality for the ENTIRE population. With as many as 40% or more still not vaccinated in many areas, I would assume the mortality for the vulnerable is still way above that "make up" number you have given at 1%.

COVID helped cause the biggest drop in U.S. life expectancy since WWII (PBS Dec 22, 2021)

COVID-19 helped erase 1.8 years from the average American’s life expectancy in 2020, according to the latest federal mortality data released Wednesday, marking the greatest change in the American lifespan since World War II. During that one brutal year, COVID-19 became the third-most common cause of death in the United States, with one out of 10 fatalities due to the virus.

Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 17:59 by bv.

COVID-19 fatality rate pre and post lock down and other measures, pre and post vaccine.

Summer 2020, peak before lock down and other measures kick in:



Late 2021, with vaccination numbers increasing:



Reference:

Mortality Risk of COVID-19 (Our World in Data - Live data)

Bjornulf

Most under 5 years old who are hospitalized with Covid also have the flu or something else at the same time. While Covid vaccines aren’t available for kids that young, flu vaccines are, which could help prevent hospitalization, even amongst those with Covid, according to research.

The pandemic among the younger and mostly non-vaccinated. This is Europe today, one year after the vaccine was made available December 2020.

COVID puts a damper on Christmas Eve again around the world (The Day - 25-Dec-2021)

Marseille France, Dec 23, 2021: Amelie Khayat has been paying daily visits to her husband, Ludo, 41, who is recovering from spending 24 days in a coma and on a breathing machine.

They touched their heads together as she sat on his bed, and now that he is strong enough to stand, he got up to give her a farewell hug, as a medical worker put final decorations on the ICU Christmas tree.



Bjornulf

Quote
NashvilleBlues
Most under 5 years old who are hospitalized with Covid also have the flu or something else at the same time. While Covid vaccines aren’t available for kids that young, flu vaccines are, which could help prevent hospitalization, even amongst those with Covid, according to research.

That's interesting...do you have a link as reference?

That thought occurred to me as a possibility, like, "what if you caught the flu AND COVID simultaneously?".

One of the reasons we got our flu shots too, in the understanding that it was increasingly difficult to catch the flu because everyone was wearing masks (and continue to do so in my jurisdiction).

Quote
bv

Quote
skytrench

Mortality for Corona is under 1%, among the vulnerable groups, much less for healthy individuals.

Ahem! Where did you get that from?

Early on during the pandemic (see the first few pages of this thread), it was well documented that the mortality rate was far above the 0.1% annual flu mortality rate. For covid-19 there was estimates of 0.7% mortality for the ENTIRE population. With as many as 40% or more still not vaccinated in many areas, I would assume the mortality for the vulnerable is still way above that "make up" number you have given at 1%.

COVID helped cause the biggest drop in U.S. life expectancy since WWII (PBS Dec 22, 2021)

COVID-19 helped erase 1.8 years from the average American’s life expectancy in 2020, according to the latest federal mortality data released Wednesday, marking the greatest change in the American lifespan since World War II. During that one brutal year, COVID-19 became the third-most common cause of death in the United States, with one out of 10 fatalities due to the virus.

Nearly a couple of years on now, I'm surprised at my own sense of amazement how some people still pound the table with easily refutable 'facts', or spewing what they call 'facts' without any clear reference.

Are they stupid, or simpletons? They can't just be evil, can they?

The answer is in there somewhere.

Quote
skytrench

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
-Het Parool, Friday 31 December 2021.
The approach to the coronavirus: 'Not much has changed since the plague'

Same things apply with regards to transmission but:

In the pre-antibiotic era (1900 through 1941), mortality among those infected with plague in the United States was 66%.

Mortality for Corona is under 1%, among the vulnerable groups, much less for healthy individuals.

Sure. The article points out the similarities, not the difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 18:47 by TheflyingDutchman.

Quote
bv

Quote
skytrench

Mortality for Corona is under 1%, among the vulnerable groups, much less for healthy individuals.

Ahem! Where did you get that from?

Early on during the pandemic (see the first few pages of this thread), it was well documented that the mortality rate was far above the 0.1% annual flu mortality rate. For covid-19 there was estimates of 0.7% mortality for the ENTIRE population. With as many as 40% or more still not vaccinated in many areas, I would assume the mortality for the vulnerable is still way above that "make up" number you have given at 1%.

Thank you for the correction, bv and sorry for my wrong assertions. Among vulnerable groups mortality would indeed be far greater than 1%. I was trying to convey my belief that the mortality rate was under 1% in the general population, and far less for the healthy individuals. But actually the mortality rate for the infected group is up around 2%.

It's New Years Eve soon so I wish you all a very good 2022, with the least possible Covid issues to disturb your lives.

Quote
skytrench

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
-Het Parool, Friday 31 December 2021.
The approach to the coronavirus: 'Not much has changed since the plague'

Same things apply with regards to transmission but:

In the pre-antibiotic era (1900 through 1941), mortality among those infected with plague in the United States was 66%.

Mortality for Corona is under 1%, among the vulnerable groups, much less for healthy individuals.

Let's compare apples and oranges. No, apples and rocks. Good thing you are just spouting nonsense as a keyboard jockey and not making public health decisions. How bubonic plague and covid spread are different and comparing mortality of any disease in early 20th century to today is laughable at best. The mortality of various forms of cancer i.e. cervical cancer was 100% then but now there is a vaccine to prevent it. You probably would be against that vaccine too because the mortality rate is now lower.

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
NashvilleBlues
Most under 5 years old who are hospitalized with Covid also have the flu or something else at the same time. While Covid vaccines aren’t available for kids that young, flu vaccines are, which could help prevent hospitalization, even amongst those with Covid, according to research.

That's interesting...do you have a link as reference?

That thought occurred to me as a possibility, like, "what if you caught the flu AND COVID simultaneously?".

One of the reasons we got our flu shots too, in the understanding that it was increasingly difficult to catch the flu because everyone was wearing masks (and continue to do so in my jurisdiction).

There will be no link since this is not true. There is more logic saying most children under 5 who are hospitalized have two arms. Influenza has been extremally low since Covid. Why is that? People are wearing masks more, Flu vaccines are up as well.

Quote
daspyknows

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
NashvilleBlues
Most under 5 years old who are hospitalized with Covid also have the flu or something else at the same time. While Covid vaccines aren’t available for kids that young, flu vaccines are, which could help prevent hospitalization, even amongst those with Covid, according to research.

That's interesting...do you have a link as reference?

That thought occurred to me as a possibility, like, "what if you caught the flu AND COVID simultaneously?".

One of the reasons we got our flu shots too, in the understanding that it was increasingly difficult to catch the flu because everyone was wearing masks (and continue to do so in my jurisdiction).

There will be no link since this is not true. There is more logic saying most children under 5 who are hospitalized have two arms. Influenza has been extremally low since Covid. Why is that? People are wearing masks more, Flu vaccines are up as well.

[apple.news]

I’ll be waiting for your apology. ><

Quote
NashvilleBlues
I’ll be waiting for your apology. ><

Happy New Year!

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
NashvilleBlues
I’ll be waiting for your apology. ><

Happy New Year!

Same to you!

New studies reveal why Omicron variant is less severe

Multiple new studies on human tissue and lab animals have provided the first insight into why the Omicron variant, though more contagious, causes milder disease than previous strains of Covid-19.

Research carried out on mice and hamsters by a team of Japanese and American scientists showed that Omicron, which first emerged in South Africa in November, produces less damaging infections, often limited to the nose, throat and windpipe.

The study also found the strain did much less harm to the lungs – whereas previous variants would often cause serious breathing difficulty and scarring – and that rodents infected with Omicron lost less weight and were less likely to die.

Yahoo News

Quote
NashvilleBlues
I’ll be waiting for your apology. ><

Where you at Daspyknows? Or should I say Daspyknowsnothing? You know, I’ve given you the benefit of doubt, up until now. There’s the source. What do you have to say now? You may disagree with some of my opinions, but don’t waste your time or reputation on disputing my facts. They’re always air-tight. Save face while you can, if you have any left!

I saw Dr. Fauci on tonight’s NBC News (possibly ABC as I watched them both)stating that children are entering the hospital for things like a broken leg or things like that and they get tested for Covid while being admitted. They end up being counted as a Covid hospital case even though that wasn’t the reason they were admitted. I don’t know if he said most children or not, but the way he said it was in a reassuring way, to essentially say the reality of children in hospital with Covid isn’t as bad as it sounds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-01 10:36 by Halup.

Quote
skytrench

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
-Het Parool, Friday 31 December 2021.
The approach to the coronavirus: 'Not much has changed since the plague'

Same things apply with regards to transmission but:

In the pre-antibiotic era (1900 through 1941), mortality among those infected with plague in the United States was 66%.

Mortality for Corona is under 1%, among the vulnerable groups, much less for healthy individuals.

Your data are fine, skytrech. However, there is no way your comparison makes sense. During the first half of the 20st Century (certainly in the days of WW1 and the Spanish Flu) there was hardly any global communication whatsoever. It's like comparing those days with f.i. Black Death pandemic in the 14th Century, when the world (Europe) was again very different. Possibly 50% of all Europeans were killed!
My statement is that with the overload of communication we have today there should not have been 5.5 million corona deaths, but maybe not more than 50.000.
The 5.5 Million in reality is even een understatement and is very likely more than 10 Million.
The problem with this overload of communication, non-experts (many even simple minded covidiots) can have a say too and always manage to find stupid followers.
They don't read scientific reports (too stupid to understand them anyway) but just ventilate there personal life frustrations.
Sad, sad, sad ...

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town