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Naturalust

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GasLightStreet

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Pietro
You could make a similar list of songs Charlie Watts didn't play on. Jimmy Miller was an excellent drummer. He played on some of the best songs on "Exile." Hell, he played the cowbell on "Honky Tonk Women."

He played on TWO songs on EXILE and the very ending of a third. That's it. So those three are the best? Oh wait, you said "some" of the best.

Playing cowbell is not playing the drums, it's playing cowbell - something a cow can do.

Can't underestimate the effect Jimmy Millers drumming abilities had on the Stones tunes. He picked the best takes and was a master at hearing the ones where the groove was right. I'm sure he did plenty in the studio to insure the Stones were rhythmically on track. Jimmy was to the Stones what George Martin was to the Beatles, imo and besides Some Girls they haven't come close to making the suberb records they did under his tutelage.

Well, I don't think I can argue that point regarding his production with exception to TATTOO YOU - he is a part of two of those tunes. It's very unfortunate his work did not rub off on the Stones (Jagger and Richards, unfortunately). However, he certainly had a way with pulling out what was best about the Stones. I've read Charlie talk about what imput Miller had about drumming, which was some things here and there, but from what I get he really had little to do with what Charlie did. Of course regarding production one could argue that perhaps someone else ie anyone with an ear and an idea and a spine could've done that, the 1968-73 period with Miller, would have had that era of inventive Stones. Did Miller bring out the songwriting? No. But he did harness the movement to tape.

And that's the George Martin part you allude to. Which is a great way to look at it.

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust

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DoomandGloom
Keith is the first to admit that the concerts not the records are the definitive versions of Stones songs.

Never heard Keith say that. Love to hear the Keith quotes you are referring to.

The quote goes some thing like 'we never get the songs right till we work them on stage and it's a shame most of the time the records come before the tours'...

Yeah that sounds like something Keith would have said. Not sure I agree though.
peace

It's no coincidence that Bill was the first Stone to release a solo album of his own material. But it was obvious from his solo work that his music and Jagger/Richards compositions are much different. Jagger/Richards compostions had more depth with many timeless masterpieces like Paint it Black or Ruby Tuesday. Bills work was light hearted shtick. Whether or not he was playing it safe or was uncertain of his ability to record more serious material, I'm not sure.


I do not feel bad for Bill or think he was slighted. He was very lucky to be in the right place at the right time and have the right look and demeanor. His is basically another "Twenty feet from stardom" story. He has been handsomely rewarded for his efforts as he should be.

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GasLightStreet

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Naturalust

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GasLightStreet

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Pietro
You could make a similar list of songs Charlie Watts didn't play on. Jimmy Miller was an excellent drummer. He played on some of the best songs on "Exile." Hell, he played the cowbell on "Honky Tonk Women."

He played on TWO songs on EXILE and the very ending of a third. That's it. So those three are the best? Oh wait, you said "some" of the best.

Playing cowbell is not playing the drums, it's playing cowbell - something a cow can do.

Can't underestimate the effect Jimmy Millers drumming abilities had on the Stones tunes. He picked the best takes and was a master at hearing the ones where the groove was right. I'm sure he did plenty in the studio to insure the Stones were rhythmically on track. Jimmy was to the Stones what George Martin was to the Beatles, imo and besides Some Girls they haven't come close to making the suberb records they did under his tutelage.

Well, I don't think I can argue that point regarding his production with exception to TATTOO YOU - he is a part of two of those tunes. It's very unfortunate his work did not rub off on the Stones (Jagger and Richards, unfortunately). However, he certainly had a way with pulling out what was best about the Stones. I've read Charlie talk about what imput Miller had about drumming, which was some things here and there, but from what I get he really had little to do with what Charlie did. Of course regarding production one could argue that perhaps someone else ie anyone with an ear and an idea and a spine could've done that, the 1968-73 period with Miller, would have had that era of inventive Stones. Did Miller bring out the songwriting? No. But he did harness the movement to tape.

And that's the George Martin part you allude to. Which is a great way to look at it.

Yeah good points for sure. I've always been a bit disappointed the Stones have rarely talked about the importance of Jimmy Miller, never seemed to praise him for his amazing production work, or talked in detail about his methods. All we hear is the "We wore Jimmy out" story and the carving the mixing board. Not sure if it was because they didn't realize how important he was, because there was some bad blood when he was dismissed or some other reason. peace

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LongBeachArena72

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DandelionPowderman

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LongBeachArena72

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Pietro
You could make a similar list of songs Charlie Watts didn't play on. Jimmy Miller was an excellent drummer. He played on some of the best songs on "Exile." Hell, he played the cowbell on "Honky Tonk Women."

I only get:

YCAGWYW
Tumbling Dice
Shine a Light
Happy
IORR

Which is not even close to the no-Wyman list. What am I missing? What else did Charlie not play on?

Jimmy only played on the last part of TD.

Dandy--I never understood how there could be two drummers on TD. How did that actually work, I wonder? And I supremely hope that it is Charlie at the 3:03 mark of this link ... otherwise I may weep for the rest of the day:

[www.youtube.com]

That is Jimmy Miller I believe. To my ears there's a change in drum sound at 2:47. Mick Taylor's bass plays a riff over the edit or punch but you can hear the drums drop there. There are likely many other edits on the song but that's where they cross the drummers. How was it done??? My best guess they just enabled the recorder at the breakdown and then cleaned the punch with a bass over dub. Another possibility is they used 2 drum kits as we've seen from session photos and just did it. Or it could be a hard edit where Jimmy picked up the outro while listening to the body of the song to get tempo. I did hear at 3:03 some phase stuff in that fill which might mean it came from Charlie's kit while Jimmy plays the groove. Under a microscope that fill sounds unnatural me like they somehow made it longer by some delays or slap back. The truth is is anything you could imagine could be done by the Johns brothers, even back then. Their genius along with Jimmy Miller is making it all sound so raw and real. Don't underestimate Jimmy Miller, despite his reputation for just letting stuff happen, he was a master editor and a superb recording giant. His keyboard tones and his ability make a B-3 explode was second to none. As a really good drummer he understood a groovy take and the value of percussion. "Glad" for example from John Barlycorn puts your ears right inside the piano, I heard the remastered version yesterday, Miller was amazing.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-02-01 04:24 by DoomandGloom.

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DoomandGloom

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LongBeachArena72

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DandelionPowderman

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LongBeachArena72

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Pietro
You could make a similar list of songs Charlie Watts didn't play on. Jimmy Miller was an excellent drummer. He played on some of the best songs on "Exile." Hell, he played the cowbell on "Honky Tonk Women."

I only get:

YCAGWYW
Tumbling Dice
Shine a Light
Happy
IORR

Which is not even close to the no-Wyman list. What am I missing? What else did Charlie not play on?

Jimmy only played on the last part of TD.

Dandy--I never understood how there could be two drummers on TD. How did that actually work, I wonder? And I supremely hope that it is Charlie at the 3:03 mark of this link ... otherwise I may weep for the rest of the day:

[www.youtube.com]

That is Jimmy Miller I believe. To my ears there's a change in drum sound at 2:47. Mick Taylor's bass plays a riff over the edit or punch but you can hear the drums drop there. There are likely many other edits on the song but that's where they cross the drummers. How was it done??? My best guess they just enabled the recorder at the breakdown and then cleaned the punch with a bass over dub. Another possibility is they used 2 drum kits as we've seen from session photos and just did it. Or it could be a hard edit where Jimmy picked up the outro while listening to the body of the song to get tempo. I did hear at 3:03 some phase stuff in that fill which might mean it came from Charlie's kit while Jimmy plays the groove. Under a microscope that fill sounds unnatural me like they somehow made it longer by some delays or slap back. The truth is is anything you could imagine could be done by the Johns brothers, even back then. Their genius along with Jimmy Miller is making it all sound so raw and real. Don't underestimate Jimmy Miller, despite his reputation for just letting stuff happen, he was a master editor and a superb recording giant. His keyboard tones and his ability make a B-3 explode was second to none. As a really good drummer he understood a groovy take and the value of percussion. "Glad" for example from John Barlycorn puts your ears right inside the piano, I heard the remastered version yesterday, Miller was amazing.

Fascinating. Thanks so much, D&G! I can't tell you how many non-Charlie Watts fans I have harangued over the years by insisting they listen to the magic at the end of TD. Oh, well ...