Tell Me :
Talk
Jekyl! ><
Sounds like we may have been at the same listening party there, Phil. I do remember it being very late, far away from home and the buses not running any more! ><
Ah, but...
We got a double box set circa 1997. Much better and revealing than anything they would ever realase officially.
naah... bootlegs are for nerds... sorry experts I mean...
I want my dinner cooked properly, not just raw materials... funkydrummer is a great cook.
- Doxa
The album is the properly cooked dinner.
"The intent was to "better" the original album and to I also wanted to "de-psychedelise" the album as well..."
It fails to better it, but succeeds in taking away much of it's unique character and flow.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-17 14:43 by His Majesty.
Alpha Centauri and Ricochet are the ones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-18 09:08 by Silver Dagger.
I haven't heard those yet.
Atem, Phaedra and Rubycon is a wonderful trio of albums by a wonderful trio of musicians. Much in the way of ace mellotron.
Yea, I guess Rubycon is a bit more refined or mellower as well.
I got Atem first, big gap before getting Phaedra and Rubycon at same time.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
funkydrummer
()
Date: May 16, 2014 11:26
Hey! Wow - lots of action since I have been away - thanks for this! I appreciate it!
Quote
flacnvinyl
@funkydrummer - This is very cool.. Like others I feel that We Love You should be included, but I get why you feel confident in this running order! I'll just leave this here...
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
funkydrummer
()
Date: May 16, 2014 11:31
Thanks first for the kind words! I basically made the thing for my own pleasure, and there is little point keeping to myself - so hence, I came by...
But This is precisely the rationale that I applied...
It is a historical revision - a what-if that tries to keep within Stones history.
But This is precisely the rationale that I applied...
It is a historical revision - a what-if that tries to keep within Stones history.
Quote
Yeah, we know all that, but what we don't know when the song was actually written and first demos/sketches were recorded by the band or indicidual members. It clearly has that psychedelic vibe and would have fitted perfectly on TSMR. Apart from that, it should not be forgotten that music is actually for listening, and while all these discussions which center around historical correctness might of course attract a (not more than a, unfortunateley) handful of diehard fans all over the world, it can get a bit trainspottery when the discussion revolves around the inclusion or non-inclusion of one particular song and forgets the project as a whole, which goes a bit on my nerves, sorry, but it must be said! Funkydrummer did a G R E A T___J O B with this. One should not forget that this is a 2014 re-imagination of an album that was released in 1967, and I'm pretty sure that ABKCO or even the Stones themselves would have included Child Of The Moon and shitted on historical correctness if they felt that it was a perfect fit in pure musical terms. It's not that the band itself proved an all too tight historical correctness with their recent archive projects (Claudine, We Had It All and Tallahassie Lassie from the Some Girls sessions?).
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
funkydrummer
()
Date: May 16, 2014 11:38
Doxa - what can I say? Very chuffed! Thanks!!!!
I do take your point - in regard to 5, and style - and I am sorry that We Love You didn't end up in there.
I do take your point - in regard to 5, and style - and I am sorry that We Love You didn't end up in there.
Quote
5. "Dandelion" and "Child of The Moon" have their natural place in the flow of side one, but I can't help that both of them sound a bit anomalic in the context. Thematically alright, but as songs both are a bit too conservative and 'constructed'. "Dandelion" has that BETWEEN THE BUTTONS era cohesive melodic pop song vibe in it, and "Moon" too much Jimmy Miller precision and tightness in it. But I wouldn't still kick them out, but a room for "We Love You" is needed! That song belongs there! 6. I missed the vocals in "Gomper"... But what a great job, funkydrummer! Best Stones studio album for ages... grinning smiley I will make a copy of it and play it regularly, and actually my psychedelia/prog rock crazy friends will have a copy/a listen as well! Thank you!smileys with beer - Doxa
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
funkydrummer
()
Date: May 16, 2014 11:45
Thanks for listening!
Yes, I know that many will miss some of the "extractions" - some harmonies etc...
I also wanted to "de-psychedelise" the album as well...and is also part of the reason I kind of left off We Love You, because I wanted to take the album out of the Beatles shadow.
I wish I could properly remix - but I only have the officials and boots to work with!
Yes, I know that many will miss some of the "extractions" - some harmonies etc...
I also wanted to "de-psychedelise" the album as well...and is also part of the reason I kind of left off We Love You, because I wanted to take the album out of the Beatles shadow.
I wish I could properly remix - but I only have the officials and boots to work with!
Quote
DandelionPowderman
This was a lovely compilation, funkydrummer. On some of the songs I missed the harmonies, as well as the tremolo guitar on The Lantern, though, but You Can't Always Get What You Want.
Nice work!
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 16, 2014 12:13
Had a listen, nice editing.
Their Satanic Majesties Request as it was released in 1967 has a unique atmosphere, an LSD sheen that shines bright, but creates mysterious shadows.
Alimente mentioned music is for listening, obviously so, and more than anything it is the music itself and the albums running order that shows the stones, to the best of their abilities and mind set at the time, got it right the first time around.
This re-imagining is interesting, but it takes more away from the album than adds to it when it comes to atmosphere, light and shadows.
Their Satanic Majesties Request as it was released in 1967 has a unique atmosphere, an LSD sheen that shines bright, but creates mysterious shadows.
Alimente mentioned music is for listening, obviously so, and more than anything it is the music itself and the albums running order that shows the stones, to the best of their abilities and mind set at the time, got it right the first time around.
This re-imagining is interesting, but it takes more away from the album than adds to it when it comes to atmosphere, light and shadows.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: May 16, 2014 12:46
This re-imagining is interesting, but it takes more away from the album than adds to it when it comes to atmosphere, light and shadows.
.....yep a bearded Mona Lisa just ain't pretty ...... but then again ta some Brazilian cats I guess it just might be ........
ROCKMAN
.....yep a bearded Mona Lisa just ain't pretty ...... but then again ta some Brazilian cats I guess it just might be ........
ROCKMAN
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
funkydrummer
()
Date: May 16, 2014 12:49
Well, I thank you for listening, and commenting.
Probably not for everyone - but there you go!
Probably not for everyone - but there you go!
Quote
His Majesty
Had a listen, nice editing.
Their Satanic Majesties Request as it was released in 1967 has a unique atmosphere, an LSD sheen that shines bright, but creates mysterious shadows.
Alimente mentioned music is for listening, obviously so, and more than anything it is the music itself and the albums running order that shows the stones, to the best of their abilities and mind set at the time, got it right the first time around.
This re-imagining is interesting, but it takes more away from the album than adds to it when it comes to atmosphere, light and shadows.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 16, 2014 12:49
Quote
Rockman
This re-imagining is interesting, but it takes more away from the album than adds to it when it comes to atmosphere, light and shadows.
.....yep a bearded Mona Lisa just ain't pretty ...... but then again ta some Brazilian cats I guess it just might be ........
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: May 16, 2014 12:51
BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: May 16, 2014 13:16
Hi funkydrummer, I listened to a few tracks after downloading it last night and it sounded good.
But today is Friday and tonight I will be returning to my laboratory to give it a proper testing. I will report back on my findings in the morning. Dr Dagger.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-16 22:56 by Silver Dagger.
But today is Friday and tonight I will be returning to my laboratory to give it a proper testing. I will report back on my findings in the morning.
Dr Dagger.Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-16 22:56 by Silver Dagger.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
SilverBlanket
()
Date: May 16, 2014 14:22
Quote
His Majesty
Had a listen, nice editing.
Their Satanic Majesties Request as it was released in 1967 has a unique atmosphere, an LSD sheen that shines bright, but creates mysterious shadows.
Beautifully described, majesty!
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: May 16, 2014 14:52
Quote
Rockman
...Heckle
Jekyl! >
<Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: May 16, 2014 14:55
Quote
His Majesty
Had a listen, nice editing.
Their Satanic Majesties Request as it was released in 1967 has a unique atmosphere, an LSD sheen that shines bright, but creates mysterious shadows.
Sounds like we may have been at the same listening party there, Phil. I do remember it being very late, far away from home and the buses not running any more! >
<Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
scottkeef
()
Date: May 16, 2014 21:41
I know there are lots of different opinions on the "Mickboy' series but I have to admit his 1999 "restructure" of TSMR is very entertaining and a favorite listen of mine....here's the tracklist:
1.Sing This Song Altgether
2.Citadel
3.Dandilion
4.In Another Land
5.2000 Man
6.Child Of The Moon
7.Cosmic Christmas
8.She's A Rainbow
9.The Lantern
10.Gomper
11.2000 Light Years From Home
12.We Love You
Bonus tracks:
1.2000 Man-Vocal isolation
2.She's A Rainbow- vocal/moog
3.Dandilion- original 45 Mono mix
5.We Love You- Original 45 mono mix
6.2000 Light Years- vocal isolation
7.Dandilion-Charlie drum mix
8.We Love You - vocal isolation with Lennon/McCartney vocals.
7 and 8 of the bonus tracks are really a hoot! as I said, not for everybody but I listen to it quite a bit. The only other LP Mickboy took this many liberties on the tracking is "Black & Blue" (another one I listen to a lot) and the result is quite enjoyable.
1.Sing This Song Altgether
2.Citadel
3.Dandilion
4.In Another Land
5.2000 Man
6.Child Of The Moon
7.Cosmic Christmas
8.She's A Rainbow
9.The Lantern
10.Gomper
11.2000 Light Years From Home
12.We Love You
Bonus tracks:
1.2000 Man-Vocal isolation
2.She's A Rainbow- vocal/moog
3.Dandilion- original 45 Mono mix
5.We Love You- Original 45 mono mix
6.2000 Light Years- vocal isolation
7.Dandilion-Charlie drum mix
8.We Love You - vocal isolation with Lennon/McCartney vocals.
7 and 8 of the bonus tracks are really a hoot! as I said, not for everybody but I listen to it quite a bit. The only other LP Mickboy took this many liberties on the tracking is "Black & Blue" (another one I listen to a lot) and the result is quite enjoyable.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 16, 2014 21:45
Quote
scottkeef
I know there are lots of different opinions on the "Mickboy' series but I have to admit his 1999 "restructure" of TSMR is very entertaining and a favorite listen of mine....here's the tracklist:
1.Sing This Song Altgether
2.Citadel
3.Dandilion
4.In Another Land
5.2000 Man
6.Child Of The Moon
7.Cosmic Christmas
8.She's A Rainbow
9.The Lantern
10.Gomper
11.2000 Light Years From Home
12.We Love You
Bonus tracks:
1.2000 Man-Vocal isolation
2.She's A Rainbow- vocal/moog
3.Dandilion- original 45 Mono mix
5.We Love You- Original 45 mono mix
6.2000 Light Years- vocal isolation
7.Dandilion-Charlie drum mix
8.We Love You - vocal isolation with Lennon/McCartney vocals.
7 and 8 of the bonus tracks are really a hoot! as I said, not for everybody but I listen to it quite a bit. The only other LP Mickboy took this many liberties on the tracking is "Black & Blue" (another one I listen to a lot) and the result is quite enjoyable.
Ah, but...
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
NICOS
()
Date: May 16, 2014 21:55
Great job funkydrummer...........
__________________________
__________________________
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
scottkeef
()
Date: May 16, 2014 21:58
Yeah, you are right..it shows up for sure! like I said, I take it with a dose of salt but still enjoy the line-up. Until I was enlightened here about where "Child" fell in recording history I sure always thought it was just a "Satanic" leftover and thrown on to the flipside of "JJF" for filler because it sure sounded loads like that direction instead of "Beggars" but sure shows what I know (or don't!! ;-) )
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
aftergeography
()
Date: May 17, 2014 00:35
Mick would never give the green light to a TSMR 50th box set (as much as I'd love to see that released…I'd be first in line to purchase this but it will never happen)...
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 17, 2014 00:42
Quote
aftergeography
Mick would never give the green light to a TSMR 50th box set (as much as I'd love to see that released…I'd be first in line to purchase this but it will never happen)...
We got a double box set circa 1997. Much better and revealing than anything they would ever realase officially.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: May 17, 2014 12:19
There are some critical voices in regards to the project. Especially Wittness seems to be a tough one...
I also think that the original release is the one and only artistic statement there is, and that should not be touched. But that said, I don't think any harm is done here. For me funkydrummer just offers an alternative possible world to SATANIC MAJESTIES, and actually a means to hear some nuances in those recording sessions that can't be heard in the actual record. This new perspective or point of view also highlights some songs in the record that at least for me is refreshing, and makes me appreciate them more. That's why I think his version just enrichens our understanding of that interesting period in their history. So for me this is not a question of being 'better' record or anything, or that the original record is somehow challanged. At least I don't feel that way.
But I also think that if this kind of alternative version can be done, SATANIC MAJESTIES is about the only record that its sounds sensible. For example, I don't think EXILE or BEGGARS BANQUET or SOME GIRLS could be treated similar way, since those records are knock-out arguments artistically. There's nothing left to be said. But then some 'lesser' records, like GOATS HEAD SOUP, DIRTY WORK or STEEL WHEELS, in which we can hear their focus might not be quite spot on, and we know there are material on the vaults that might enrich their artistic statement, why not...
I hope I make some sense...
- Doxa
I also think that the original release is the one and only artistic statement there is, and that should not be touched. But that said, I don't think any harm is done here. For me funkydrummer just offers an alternative possible world to SATANIC MAJESTIES, and actually a means to hear some nuances in those recording sessions that can't be heard in the actual record. This new perspective or point of view also highlights some songs in the record that at least for me is refreshing, and makes me appreciate them more. That's why I think his version just enrichens our understanding of that interesting period in their history. So for me this is not a question of being 'better' record or anything, or that the original record is somehow challanged. At least I don't feel that way.
But I also think that if this kind of alternative version can be done, SATANIC MAJESTIES is about the only record that its sounds sensible. For example, I don't think EXILE or BEGGARS BANQUET or SOME GIRLS could be treated similar way, since those records are knock-out arguments artistically. There's nothing left to be said. But then some 'lesser' records, like GOATS HEAD SOUP, DIRTY WORK or STEEL WHEELS, in which we can hear their focus might not be quite spot on, and we know there are material on the vaults that might enrich their artistic statement, why not...
I hope I make some sense...
- Doxa
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 17, 2014 12:34
TSMR is a knock-out record as far as them being psychedelic.
The Satanic Sessions box sets enriches our understanding of that period.
...
Beggars Banquet could could have been quite a different record had things like Pay Your Dues remained as they were AND Child Of The Moon was featured on it.
Jumpin' Jack Flash, Sympathy For The Devil, Jigsaw Puzzle, Pay Your Dues, Child Of The Moon and even apsects of Stray Cat blues are not a return to roots, it's new music really, a continuation of the kind of thing they were doing for the basic tracks of TSMR.
The acoustic music on Beggars grounds the electric stuff on the album, remove some of those acoustic tracks and the album would take on quite a different sound and feel. Might even have been better. ><
I'd actually have prefered it to have less of the acoustic stuff and more of the eclectic electric approach. Check how raucous they sound at the March 1968 Surrey Rehearsals.
It's a pity that got so toned down.
Of course, what with the delays in releasing the album, the way they actually did it worked in their favour as a more eclectic record in December 1968 probably wouldn't have went down all that well.
...
The available material from 1969 shows that Let It Bleed could be re-imagined as either a more party orientated record, or a more dark record.
...
Their Satanic Majesties Request is better than both of those albums. ><
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-17 12:47 by His Majesty.
The Satanic Sessions box sets enriches our understanding of that period.
...
Beggars Banquet could could have been quite a different record had things like Pay Your Dues remained as they were AND Child Of The Moon was featured on it.
Jumpin' Jack Flash, Sympathy For The Devil, Jigsaw Puzzle, Pay Your Dues, Child Of The Moon and even apsects of Stray Cat blues are not a return to roots, it's new music really, a continuation of the kind of thing they were doing for the basic tracks of TSMR.
The acoustic music on Beggars grounds the electric stuff on the album, remove some of those acoustic tracks and the album would take on quite a different sound and feel. Might even have been better. >
<I'd actually have prefered it to have less of the acoustic stuff and more of the eclectic electric approach. Check how raucous they sound at the March 1968 Surrey Rehearsals.
It's a pity that got so toned down.Of course, what with the delays in releasing the album, the way they actually did it worked in their favour as a more eclectic record in December 1968 probably wouldn't have went down all that well.
...
The available material from 1969 shows that Let It Bleed could be re-imagined as either a more party orientated record, or a more dark record.
...
Their Satanic Majesties Request is better than both of those albums. >
<Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-17 12:47 by His Majesty.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: May 17, 2014 13:13
Quote
His Majesty
TSMR is a knock-out record as far as them being psychedelic.
The Satanic Sessions box sets enriches our understanding of that period.
naah... bootlegs are for nerds... sorry experts I mean...
I want my dinner cooked properly, not just raw materials... funkydrummer is a great cook.
- Doxa
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 17, 2014 14:39
Quote
DoxaQuote
His Majesty
TSMR is a knock-out record as far as them being psychedelic.
The Satanic Sessions box sets enriches our understanding of that period.
naah... bootlegs are for nerds... sorry experts I mean...
I want my dinner cooked properly, not just raw materials... funkydrummer is a great cook.
- Doxa
The album is the properly cooked dinner.
"The intent was to "better" the original album and to I also wanted to "de-psychedelise" the album as well..."
It fails to better it, but succeeds in taking away much of it's unique character and flow.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-17 14:43 by His Majesty.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: May 17, 2014 20:44
Writing on a phone I am not able to introduce quotes. And writing during a pause of drinking a bottle of wine, my concentration suffers a little.
To me the original album at the same time both belongs to the sequence of albums from AFTERMATH and BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and stands apart from them. I am not sure if it is psychedelic in a proper sense. By the way, I do like many expressions of psychedelia in rock and in experimentative as well as in more commercial pop.
I then do not say that is illegitimate to do such a remake of any Stones album. But do not expect me to want to listen to it. And when it has been an ambition to de-psychedelize it from whatever it was, so much more I don't want to.
I have for years thought that if you draw a symbolic line from THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST through the sonic landscape to some of the most (best) flipped out pieces from Pink Floyd and prolong this line, you will sooner or later arrive at two old albums from the German group Tangerine Dream. Those are ATEM and PHAEDRA. I am not sure if I would like other of their releases, but the mentionned two I fancy. It has always pleased me that an album from the Rolling Stones can be thought of as belonging to such an axis. Because this is an important sideline of music that I love. Then I do not wish to listen to a remake of SATANIC, unless it were done by the Stones themselves. And I would not have advised that either.
The only Stones album I would have been interested in hearing a remake of really, is the album almost everyone praises, but which I have a problem with. That is TATTOO YOU.
However, I repeat, I don't say that such remakes are not allowed.
Besides, a deep bow to His Majesty for giving the adequate answers in this thread. Writing on the phone made me somewhat go astray in my thinking. But in this context, His Majesty says all that can be wished for also from my point of view, and as usual much more, too.
To me the original album at the same time both belongs to the sequence of albums from AFTERMATH and BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and stands apart from them. I am not sure if it is psychedelic in a proper sense. By the way, I do like many expressions of psychedelia in rock and in experimentative as well as in more commercial pop.
I then do not say that is illegitimate to do such a remake of any Stones album. But do not expect me to want to listen to it. And when it has been an ambition to de-psychedelize it from whatever it was, so much more I don't want to.
I have for years thought that if you draw a symbolic line from THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST through the sonic landscape to some of the most (best) flipped out pieces from Pink Floyd and prolong this line, you will sooner or later arrive at two old albums from the German group Tangerine Dream. Those are ATEM and PHAEDRA. I am not sure if I would like other of their releases, but the mentionned two I fancy. It has always pleased me that an album from the Rolling Stones can be thought of as belonging to such an axis. Because this is an important sideline of music that I love. Then I do not wish to listen to a remake of SATANIC, unless it were done by the Stones themselves. And I would not have advised that either.
The only Stones album I would have been interested in hearing a remake of really, is the album almost everyone praises, but which I have a problem with. That is TATTOO YOU.
However, I repeat, I don't say that such remakes are not allowed.
Besides, a deep bow to His Majesty for giving the adequate answers in this thread. Writing on the phone made me somewhat go astray in my thinking. But in this context, His Majesty says all that can be wished for also from my point of view, and as usual much more, too.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 18, 2014 00:21
If you like Atem and Phaedra, you'll like Rubycon as well.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: May 18, 2014 00:56
Quote
His Majesty
If you like Atem and Phaedra, you'll like Rubycon as well.
Alpha Centauri and Ricochet are the ones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-18 09:08 by Silver Dagger.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: May 18, 2014 01:03
At the time, in a most simplified description, I experienced ATEM and PHAEDRA as music which floated out of the speakers, vibrating, increasing and decreasing in intensity in a most fascinating way. I bought PHAEDRA then. ATEM first years later, together with ALPHA CENTAURI. However, right or wrong, my impression of RUBYCON and RICOCHET was more in the vein of rhytmic experiments that I did not find then as interesting. In fact, I bought those two albums since, but have never come so far as listening to them again. I have got those vinyl releases somewhere.
Correction of spelling error made
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-18 01:11 by Witness.
Correction of spelling error made
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-18 01:11 by Witness.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 18, 2014 01:07
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
His Majesty
If you like Atem and Phaedra, you'll like Rubycon as well.
Alpha Centauri and Ricohet are the ones.
I haven't heard those yet.
Atem, Phaedra and Rubycon is a wonderful trio of albums by a wonderful trio of musicians. Much in the way of ace mellotron.
Re: Satanic Majesties Reimagined
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 18, 2014 01:12
Quote
Witness
At the time, in a most simplified description, I experienced ATEM and PHAEDRA as music which floated out of the speakers, vibrating, increasing and decreasing in intensity in a most fascinating way. I bought PHAEDRA then. ATEM first years later, together with ALPHA CENTAURI. However, right or wrong, my impression of RUBYCON and RICOUCHETTE was more in the vein of rhytmic experiments that I did not find then as interesting. In fact, I bought those two albums since, but never come so far as listening to them again. I have got those vinyl releases somewhere.
Yea, I guess Rubycon is a bit more refined or mellower as well.
I got Atem first, big gap before getting Phaedra and Rubycon at same time.
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