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treaclefingers
I think Dave Davies has the final word on this..."they didn't call it Heavy Metal when I invented it"...I'm paraphrasing.

OK, but I hope you realize that this makes The Kinks the first of the "hair bands".

Blue Cheer - Summertime Blues may be the first heavy (metal) song

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stonehearted

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landis

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keefriffhard4life

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landis

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keefriffhard4life

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treaclefingers
First heavy metal song was You Really Got Me by the Kinks, 1964.

also the first punk song

No it's not. "You Really Got Me" is nowhere near a heavy metal song or a punk rock song. Heck I think The Beatles "You Can't Do That" to my ears sounds more metallic than "You Really Got Me". The first metal songs were probably done around 1968 and by more than a few acts at the same time.

I like The Kinks but they were at most in the 60's were early hard rock but they never ventured into the heavy metal area.

its the guitar tone and style of riff why people say its the first metal song. the attitude of the vocal has a punk feel.

"You Really Got Me" was an important influence on hard rock but it's nowhere near metal like Black Sabbath or punk rock like The Stooges.

You Really Got Me was recorded with an 8-watt amp Dave purchased in a home appliance shop [the famous "little green amp"] plugged into a Vox AC30. You can't get heavy metal out of 38 watts--heavy rubber maybe, but not heavy metal.

Metal bands don't look further back than the late 60s for their heros. Ozzy Osbourne and Jimmy Page are their founding fathers. I've never heard anyone from any metal band name Dave or Ray Davies as a template for metal, let alone as an influence even.

The vocals have more of a garage feel--laid back and with a touch of teasing humor, rather than fierce angry rebellion. The Kinks did not influence punk, their records did not even chart in the UK after 1967. When Iggy Pop, The New York Dolls and The Ramones were at their height, Ray Davies had transformed The Kinks into a long-haired ragtime big-band dance hall group--that is the version of The Kinks emerging punk musicians first became acquainted with.

The Kinks in 1975--no punks in that television audience.

you must not look around too hard as metallica, the ramones and the clash have all cited the kinks as an influence

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keefriffhard4life
the ramones have cited the kinks as an influence

The Beach Boys and Phil Spector were also influences on The Ramones. That doesn't make them punk, it just means that they were influences.

As for Dave Davies' guitar sound, Link Wray was getting the exact same power chord distorted guitar sound in the 1950s.

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stonehearted

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keefriffhard4life
the ramones have cited the kinks as an influence

The Beach Boys and Phil Spector were also influences on The Ramones. That doesn't make them punk, it just means that they were influences.

As for Dave Davies' guitar sound, Link Wray was getting the exact same power chord distorted guitar sound in the 1950s.

it was stated the kinks did not influence punk or metal and it took me 3 seconds on a google search to find 3 well known punk/metal bands who list the kinks as an influence so the answer is yes they are an influence. james hetfield of metallica, who have covered kinks songs and performed with ray davies, stated that the kinks invented the heavy pound you in the face riff that all metal was forged from.

as far as dave davies sound. it was made by slicing the cone in his amp.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-25 08:37 by keefriffhard4life.

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keefriffhard4life

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stonehearted

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keefriffhard4life
the ramones have cited the kinks as an influence

The Beach Boys and Phil Spector were also influences on The Ramones. That doesn't make them punk, it just means that they were influences.

As for Dave Davies' guitar sound, Link Wray was getting the exact same power chord distorted guitar sound in the 1950s.

it was stated the kinks did not influence ounk or metal and it took me 3 seconds on a google search to find 3 well known punk/metal bands who list the kinks as an influence so the answer is yes they are an influence. james hetfield of metallica, who have covered kinks songs and performed with ray davies, stated that the kinks invented the heavy pound you in the face riff that all metal was forged from.

as far as dave davies sound. it was made by slicing the cone in his amp.

An influence does not make them a part of the genre they are said to influence. The Doors (or Jim Morrison) influenced Iggy Pop and Iggy Pop influenced punk--does this make Jim Morrison or Iggy Pop punk singers? No, it just means they were an influence, not a part of the genre whose musicians/performers were influenced. There's actually a difference.

By the way, the first band to be directly influenced by The Kinks was The Who (I'm sure you've heard I Can't Explain and Pete Townshend mentioning what an immediate influence All Day and All Night had on his songwriting).

Regarding Link Wray's "heavy metal" sound, it appears Dave Davies copied Link Wray's idea of punching holes in the speaker cone of his amp:

Link used a 1953 Premier 71 Amp. The 71 has a 12" Jensen Field-Coil speaker and 2 - 3" Jensens. He poked holes in the small speakers to emulate the distortion he'd get when he'd crank the amp at gigs.

Discussions at: [www.thegearpage.net]

If you do a little further Google searching, you'll find numerous sources giving credit to Mr. Wray for blazing the trail to make possible such off-shoot genres as punk, hard rock, and heavy metal. Here are a couple "links" on Link:

Building on the overdriven, distorted electric guitar sound of early electric blues records, his 1958 instrumental hit "Rumble" by Link Wray and his Ray Men introduced "the power chord, the major modus operandi of modern rock guitarists," making possible "punk and heavy rock."

Further details at: [en.wikipedia.org]

In his 1958 instrumental hit "Rumble," Wray invented the power chord, the basis of modern rock guitar-playing from thrash to heavy metal.... This is Link Wray. Fred Lincoln Wray Jr., the 73-year-old Shawnee Indian, a pioneer of punk and heavy metal, or just that dirty guitar sound.

Details at: [www.rockabillyhall.com]

Now, have a listen to the most important D chord in the history of rock:

no one ever even said the kinks were metal or punk. they had a song that is considered a cornerstone and big influence on both genres so therefore people say you could say "you really got me" was the first metal or punk song not that the kinks are metal or punk.

also everyone in the world says iggy pop is a punk singer so no clue how all of the sudden you are asking is he punk since he was in the stooges? the answer is yes because they are considered the first punk band. iggy's nickname is THE GODFATHER OF PUNK

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keefriffhard4life
no one ever even said the kinks were metal or punk. they had a song that is considered a cornerstone and big influence on both genres so therefore people say you could say "you really got me" was the first metal or punk song not that the kinks are metal or punk.

also everyone in the world says iggy pop is a punk singer so no clue how all of the sudden you are asking is he punk since he was in the stooges? the answer is yes because they are considered the first punk band. iggy's nickname is THE GODFATHER OF PUNK

People label things like You Really Got Me "metal" or "punk" retrospectively. It was never called those things at the time, not until decades later.

Iggy Pop began releasing albums in 1969--was he called punk then? No, this was a label attached retrospectively.

John "Rotten" Lydon you can call a punk singer because he was called punk rock while there was actually a conscious movement called punk rock.

So what if Iggy is called the "godfather of punk"? He only became "punk" long after the fact. Neil Young was called the "godfather of grunge", but that didn't make Buffalo Springfield or Crazy Horse "grunge" bands, because no one thought of the "grunge" label until the late 80s.

The Velvet Underground were also a significant influence. But just because you influenced a genre of musicians, it doesn't make you a part of that genre.

Hey, you forgot to comment on how Dave Davies copied Link Wray's idea of slashing speaker cones to get the sound that later influenced hard rock, punk, and heavy metal.

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stonehearted

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keefriffhard4life
no one ever even said the kinks were metal or punk. they had a song that is considered a cornerstone and big influence on both genres so therefore people say you could say "you really got me" was the first metal or punk song not that the kinks are metal or punk.

also everyone in the world says iggy pop is a punk singer so no clue how all of the sudden you are asking is he punk since he was in the stooges? the answer is yes because they are considered the first punk band. iggy's nickname is THE GODFATHER OF PUNK

People label things like You Really Got Me "metal" or "punk" retrospectively. It was never called those things at the time, not until decades later.

Iggy Pop began releasing albums in 1969--was he called punk then? No, this was a label attached retrospectively.

John "Rotten" Lydon you can call a punk singer because he was called punk rock while there was actually a conscious movement called punk rock.

So what if Iggy is called the "godfather of punk"? He only became "punk" long after the fact. Neil Young was called the "godfather of grunge", but that didn't make Buffalo Springfield or Crazy Horse "grunge" bands, because no one thought of the "grunge" label until the late 80s.

The Velvet Underground were also a significant influence. But just because you influenced a genre of musicians, it doesn't make you a part of that genre.

Hey, you forgot to comment on how Dave Davies copied Link Wray's idea of slashing speaker cones to get the sound that later influenced hard rock, punk, and heavy metal.

well iggy pop says he is a punk.

i didn't mention it because i doubt in 1963 when dave davies did that he even knew link wray had done the exact same thing. were there lots of pictures of his rig or printed interviews circulating where wray tells the story of cutting the cone in his amp?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-25 09:33 by keefriffhard4life.

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keefriffhard4life
well iggy pop says he is a punk.

i didn't mention it because i doubt in 1963 when dave davies did that he even knew link wray had done the exact same thing. were there lots of pictures of his rig or printed interviews circulating where ray tells the story of cutting the cone in his amp?

I'm sure Iggy does call himself a punk--but he didn't even think to refer to himself as one until Johnny Rotten was called one a decade after Iggy established himself.

I don't know whether or not Dave Davies was aware of Link Wray having done the same thing, but the point is that Link Wray did it first--just like that "slash" power chord that Link Wray did first in 1963 in the intro of his version of Batman that Pete Townshend later incorporated into his style. People think Townshend did that first. Just have a listen to the first few seconds ("slash" can be heard from 0:08 to 0:10) and see if that screeching run down the fretboard doesn't sound familiar....





At any rate, Jimmy Page gives credit where it is due....

so dave davies should give credit even though he may not have known he copied something someone already did?

btw tons of things in music have been labeled retrospectively. doesn't change the fact that the stooges were punk just like people say the MC5 were punk. even black sabbath was not originally called heavy metal until years after the 1st album was released

<<so dave davies should give credit even though he may not have known he copied something someone already did?>>

You're assuming that Davies didn't know about Link Wray--but chances are he did, since Page and Townshend knew of him at the time. He was part of the lexicon of American rock, because Rumble and Rawhide were actual top 40 hits in the late 50s.

The Stooges and MC5 were not punk--you can't be something 10 years before it happens. They didn't start out that way, they were merely favorites of musicians that came later. This thing about retrospectively labeling a rock "family" tree is deceptive. You can't know what people 10 or 20 years from now are going to look back and label you as. When asked by a BBC interviewer in 1964 what kind of a group they thought they were, whether they were a "pop" group, Ray Davies said that, no, he considered them an "R&B" group. When interviewed about punk in the 1980s--it's on one of the Kinks' compilation DVDs--he said that he didn't consider punk to be an influence on him, that it didn't make much of an impression on him. It's two different worlds, decades apart.

The bottom line is very simple:

The Beatles are so much more influential and innovative than the Stones. I like the Stones better (although both groups are the upper echelon that you almost can't rate), but listen to something off Abbey Road or any of their albums. The arrangements are incredible and actually more incredible to listen with on their own. They were just off the charts creative and no one touched them in that time. Every song of theirs is intricate, whether it needs it or not. The thing is, you don't even notice it until you actually look for it. Thats why they were incredible. They could do both, by making a song that sounds simple, yet its parts are so complex no one else could have done it at the time.

The Stones are the godfathers of rock and roll. They brought it to the biggest masses and arguably did it the best of any of the groups in the 60s. In terms of creativity, it takes much less creativity to make something like Let's Spend The Night Together compared to A Day In The Life. Its not a knock to the Stones at all. Its just how they operated. The Beatles really couldn't write a rock song like the Stones. They all had their own strengths. I'm someone that likes to rock out more, so while I obviously love the Beatles, I could turn on 6 Stones albums off the top of my head and get what I'm looking for. They had a way with songs that just made them immediate classics and staples of music in general.

Both groups are amazing in their own different ways. The Beatles are better because no one can really duplicate the complexities those 4 came up with, or have enough creative drive to really do as much as they did in such a short time with ALL of it still be commercially successful. Are they overrated? Absolutely, but when you listen to the songs you kind of have to give them a free pass. The praise makes sense. The Stones get just as much of it, and they are #2 in the way that their songs will also live forever, but they didn't do as much with them. Their songs are good, but they didn't have the layers. The thing with the Beatles is you can always find something new with any of their songs. With the Stones, you get it all within the first few listens, but it never gets old. Its a small technicality, but the Beatles do deserve the title.

The bottom line is, they will be known as the two greatest rock bands in music and no one can even touch the contributions that they have done together.

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stonehearted
<<so dave davies should give credit even though he may not have known he copied something someone already did?>>

You're assuming that Davies didn't know about Link Wray--but chances are he did, since Page and Townshend knew of him at the time. He was part of the lexicon of American rock, because Rumble and Rawhide were actual top 40 hits in the late 50s.

The Stooges and MC5 were not punk--you can't be something 10 years before it happens. They didn't start out that way, they were merely favorites of musicians that came later. This thing about retrospectively labeling a rock "family" tree is deceptive. You can't know what people 10 or 20 years from now are going to look back and label you as. When asked by a BBC interviewer in 1964 what kind of a group they thought they were, whether they were a "pop" group, Ray Davies said that, no, he considered them an "R&B" group. When interviewed about punk in the 1980s--it's on one of the Kinks' compilation DVDs--he said that he didn't consider punk to be an influence on him, that it didn't make much of an impression on him. It's two different worlds, decades apart.

how is something invented if you can't do it before it happens? did all of the sudden several bands release an album in the later 70's without knowing eachother and each one come up with the term punk?

i didn't say dave davies didn't know who wray was. i said where is there proof davies knew that wray sliced a part of his amp? things back then aren't like they are today with instant access to information.

finally ray davies did write a song in the late 70's called "prince of the punks" and about this time the kinks started playing all of their rock songs at a much faster tempo then before.

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keefriffhard4life
how is something invented if you can't do it before it happens? did all of the sudden several bands release an album in the later 70's without knowing eachother and each one come up with the term punk?

i didn't say dave davies didn't know who wray was. i said where is there proof davies knew that wray sliced a part of his amp? things back then aren't like they are today with instant access to information.

finally ray davies did write a song in the late 70's called "prince of the punks" and about this time the kinks started playing all of their rock songs at a much faster tempo then before.

The bands didn't come up with the term, it was some journalist. Caroline Coon is often credited, though it may have come from Lenny Kaye in the liner notes to the first Nuggets compilation--which would be the first retrospective categorization of the previous generation of what has come to be termed "protopunk" bands.

I don't know whether there is proof that Davies knew how Link Wray got his sound--if there is, you'll never hear it from Dave. As you can tell from the following interview, he wants that credit all to himself. After living under the shadow of his brother for so long, it's really his claim to fame:

Interview at: [www.premierguitar.com]

Check out the comments section at the bottom of the page of that interview--you'll see that we're not the only ones to have had this particular discussion.

It's also been discussed on a Ray Davies forum (Topic: Was Dave Davies A Kloset Link Wray Fan?):

[raydavies.fr.yuku.com]

And on the Steve Hoffman forum as well:

[forums.stevehoffman.tv]

Also, Prince of the Punks was a knock at Chris Robinson, who was formerly a folk artist on Ray's record label but who changed his style to try to fit in and become famous--"He's the prince of the punks/and he's finally made it/thinks he looks cool/but his act is dated"--Ray is putting down a poseur, not trying to claim punk cred for himself.

Yes, they were playing basic rock music again at faster tempos, Ray fell into and out of a relationship with Chrissie Hynde and perhaps he was musically making a stab at more "new wave" styles for a couple of albums (Give The People What They Want fits that bill), but their music was more to the taste of a more mainstream U.S. rock audience than a punk rock club crowd--in the UK punk scene they were still considered yesterday's news.

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stonehearted

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keefriffhard4life
how is something invented if you can't do it before it happens? did all of the sudden several bands release an album in the later 70's without knowing eachother and each one come up with the term punk?

i didn't say dave davies didn't know who wray was. i said where is there proof davies knew that wray sliced a part of his amp? things back then aren't like they are today with instant access to information.

finally ray davies did write a song in the late 70's called "prince of the punks" and about this time the kinks started playing all of their rock songs at a much faster tempo then before.

The bands didn't come up with the term, it was some journalist. Caroline Coon is often credited, though it may have come from Lenny Kaye in the liner notes to the first Nuggets compilation--which would be the first retrospective categorization of the previous generation of what has come to be termed "protopunk" bands.

I don't know whether there is proof that Davies knew how Link Wray got his sound--if there is, you'll never hear it from Dave. As you can tell from the following interview, he wants that credit all to himself. After living under the shadow of his brother for so long, it's really his claim to fame:

Interview at: [www.premierguitar.com]

Check out the comments section at the bottom of the page of that interview--you'll see that we're not the only ones to have had this particular discussion.

It's also been discussed on a Ray Davies forum (Topic: Was Dave Davies A Kloset Link Wray Fan?):

[raydavies.fr.yuku.com]

And on the Steve Hoffman forum as well:

[forums.stevehoffman.tv]

Also, Prince of the Punks was a knock at Chris Robinson, who was formerly a folk artist on Ray's record label but who changed his style to try to fit in and become famous--"He's the prince of the punks/and he's finally made it/thinks he looks cool/but his act is dated"--Ray is putting down a poseur, not trying to claim punk cred for himself.

Yes, they were playing basic rock music again at faster tempos, Ray fell into and out of a relationship with Chrissie Hynde and perhaps he was musically making a stab at more "new wave" styles for a couple of albums (Give The People What They Want fits that bill), but their music was more to the taste of a more mainstream U.S. rock audience than a punk rock club crowd--in the UK punk scene they were still considered yesterday's news.

i wasn't claiming ray thought he was prince of the punks. i was stating that influence from the punk scene did creep into the kinks work even if ray wants to say no.

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RollingFreak
The bottom line is very simple:

The Beatles are so much more influential and innovative than the Stones. I like the Stones better (although both groups are the upper echelon that you almost can't rate), but listen to something off Abbey Road or any of their albums. The arrangements are incredible and actually more incredible to listen with on their own. They were just off the charts creative and no one touched them in that time. Every song of theirs is intricate, whether it needs it or not. The thing is, you don't even notice it until you actually look for it. Thats why they were incredible. They could do both, by making a song that sounds simple, yet its parts are so complex no one else could have done it at the time.

The Stones are the godfathers of rock and roll. They brought it to the biggest masses and arguably did it the best of any of the groups in the 60s. In terms of creativity, it takes much less creativity to make something like Let's Spend The Night Together compared to A Day In The Life. Its not a knock to the Stones at all. Its just how they operated. The Beatles really couldn't write a rock song like the Stones. They all had their own strengths. I'm someone that likes to rock out more, so while I obviously love the Beatles, I could turn on 6 Stones albums off the top of my head and get what I'm looking for. They had a way with songs that just made them immediate classics and staples of music in general.

Both groups are amazing in their own different ways. The Beatles are better because no one can really duplicate the complexities those 4 came up with, or have enough creative drive to really do as much as they did in such a short time with ALL of it still be commercially successful. Are they overrated? Absolutely, but when you listen to the songs you kind of have to give them a free pass. The praise makes sense. The Stones get just as much of it, and they are #2 in the way that their songs will also live forever, but they didn't do as much with them. Their songs are good, but they didn't have the layers. The thing with the Beatles is you can always find something new with any of their songs. With the Stones, you get it all within the first few listens, but it never gets old. Its a small technicality, but the Beatles do deserve the title.

The bottom line is, they will be known as the two greatest rock bands in music and no one can even touch the contributions that they have done together.

I think both bands are number 1 & 2 in terms of the amount of bands they have ended up influencing.

The only way you could say the Beatles are over rated is if you didn't know enough. The Beatles were the first in rock music to , experiment with what's known today as sampling, automatic double tracking, live looping, and have feedback in a rock song, and many many others. Stockhausen used backwards tapes, allegedly, but he didn't really do 'songs', did he? Nor did John Cage? Not only that, but they created an entire culture! The British Invasion would not have happened if I Wanna Hold Your Hand had never been released.

"The Beatles achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time." Robert Fripp



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-25 13:59 by landis.

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landis
The only way you could say the Beatles are over rated is if you didn't know enough.

The Beatles are obscenely overrated, and I like to believe (when it comes to music) I know enough. Certainly enough to form an informed opinion.

They were extremely influential, but they are nowhere close to "greatest band of all time" status, which is the line we've been fed for decades now.

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stonehearted

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keefriffhard4life
well iggy pop says he is a punk.

i didn't mention it because i doubt in 1963 when dave davies did that he even knew link wray had done the exact same thing. were there lots of pictures of his rig or printed interviews circulating where ray tells the story of cutting the cone in his amp?

I'm sure Iggy does call himself a punk--but he didn't even think to refer to himself as one until Johnny Rotten was called one a decade after Iggy established himself.

I don't know whether or not Dave Davies was aware of Link Wray having done the same thing, but the point is that Link Wray did it first--just like that "slash" power chord that Link Wray did first in 1963 in the intro of his version of Batman that Pete Townshend later incorporated into his style. People think Townshend did that first. Just have a listen to the first few seconds ("slash" can be heard from 0:08 to 0:10) and see if that screeching run down the fretboard doesn't sound familiar....

I hate to say this, but Link Wray's version of Batman is at least from 1966, since thats when the original theme was from. This means that Townshend was probably already using the "Slash", and while aware of Link Wray, he was developing his own sound by this time. It's not as if a "slash" is all that unique in rock, I'm sure people like T-Bone Walker or even Les Paul did something like a slash even if by accident. Its much like Feedback. From the first electric guitars artists were aware of Feedback, probably by accident. What people like Towshend and Beck did with it was control it, and considering "I Feel Fine" is from late 64, its likely that both Beck and Townshend had been using it regularly before the Beatles decided to try it in the studio.

"What people like Towshend and Beck did with it was control it..."

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Happy Jack
Link Wray's version of Batman is at least from 1966, since thats when the original theme was from. This means that Townshend was probably already using the "Slash", and while aware of Link Wray, he was developing his own sound by this time.

Yes, you're right it is from 1966. I was off by a few. Nonetheless, my point is that this is one of Link's influences on Pete, because Townshend hadn't done that particular effect on any of his records or live up to that point. The most experimental guitar track by that time was The Ox. I was merely sating that Link Wray's overall influence should not remain underestimated, and that while Townshend was certainly developing his own sound and style, that "screeching slash" that later became famously associated with him was actually a Link Wray influence, and Townshend name checks Wray in his 2006 song Mirror Door.

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stonehearted


Yes, you're right it is from 1966. I was off by a few. Nonetheless, my point is that this is one of Link's influences on Pete, because Townshend hadn't done that particular effect on any of his records or live up to that point.

Yer not doing very well today.





Not to deny any Link influence on Pete of course.

this thread has taken a long and winding road...
but still the answer is STONES!!

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stonehearted

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Happy Jack
Link Wray's version of Batman is at least from 1966, since thats when the original theme was from. This means that Townshend was probably already using the "Slash", and while aware of Link Wray, he was developing his own sound by this time.

Yes, you're right it is from 1966. I was off by a few. Nonetheless, my point is that this is one of Link's influences on Pete, because Townshend hadn't done that particular effect on any of his records or live up to that point. The most experimental guitar track by that time was The Ox. I was merely sating that Link Wray's overall influence should not remain underestimated, and that while Townshend was certainly developing his own sound and style, that "screeching slash" that later became famously associated with him was actually a Link Wray influence, and Townshend name checks Wray in his 2006 song Mirror Door.

I've never heard of this guy, but by jove he sounds like he's the missing Link!

oh truly, hurray for me.

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His Majesty
Yer not doing very well today.

Blinded by a Wray of Link I guess.

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His Majesty

Now that's funny!

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2000 LYFH

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His Majesty

Now that's funny!

Pythonesque!

...what about Stones V Beatles in a drag race ... I reckon the Stones would beat em'......



ROCKMAN