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Jamie is almost identic...that's generally why I watched his 2 first seasons...
Good point Eddie. Let's talk about Keith here too. I presume Keith went the opposite way to Mick, learning to speak in a fairly midddle class accent.
Unfortunately I don't think there are any very early interviews with him where we can hear his accent. (In fact when was the first TV interview with Keith - Australia 73?)
But I should imagine that at some point in the mid-60s - after coming into contact with aristocratic hippies and posh druggies - Keith began to speak in a more laid-back way, more considered and clearly thinking before opening his mouth.
In interviews now, Keith can be extremely erudite and wordly, something I think he has learned during his career as a rock star.
There's interviews with all the band from the mid 60s (Scandinavia '65 springs to mind, though there's probably earlier ones).
Keith's voice sounds surprisingly similar to Mick's "normal" voice here:
No.
For a true Cockney, check out interviews with Steve Marriott.
Even by 1969 his voice had changed a lot (check out 'Gimme Shelter' movie, where he's using words like "man" & "cat" in a very American way).
Maybe, & Suggs of Madness too.
Here's Steve Marriott:
Yep, plus of course mixing with the great and good in London and people like Marianne who he ordinarily wouldn't have been exposed to. Anyway he wasn't that badly spoken to begin with, just good old fashioned estuary english.
Mick was more middle class so spoke better but even his natural accent is somewhere between posh, if you like and common, to be politically incorrect. He has always poshed it up or down depending on who he is speaking to. My dad does this as well, it's quite annoying
Thanks.........
Pathe news was a news item that was commonly shown before the main feature at the cinema in Britain in the '50's & '60's...(It actually originated in the US..Warner production)...in Britain it was presented by a chap who always spoke the most eloquent 'Queen's English. No slang.
The Monkees - Pathe News....Stones @ 1 min 48 secs
Pathe news - Rolling Stones
As I say there was also the original US version...........
Quote Paulm.......And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?
It's like anywhere, as you move geographically the accent slowly changes, technically to be a Cockney you have to live within earshot of the Bow (Church)bells. That is a church in a place called Bow in East London. Dartford is about 15 miles east of East London (On the banks of the Thames Estuary as it widens before reaching the North sea.)........so not technically 'CockneyLand' but still as they are quite close to each other the accents are very similar. But I'm sure though that a 100% genuine Cockey lad could tell in an instant that Mick Jagger even with his best Dartford schoolyard dialect is not a Cockney....
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 16:20 by EddieByword.
No......Essex........although not straight forward again with Ian ....born in West london, moved to Essex when young, then got polio and was sent to disabled child's boarding school in Sussex, different accent again.......and to top that off his mother (Divorced) was from Cornwall ...completely different again........and like Mick's parents - middle class. His mother was a bohemian daughter of a well to do and respected doctor who had a lot of land. His father was from central London but he hardly saw him when growing up.
...................
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 20:46 by EddieByword.
Estuary English and Cockney are related in that they both grew from the original language spoken by the working classes in east London. Both are spoken with broadened vowels.
Where Cockney is different is that it is generally spoken in a faster way. Cockney venacular is more clipped and speedy in its delivery while Estuary English is not so 'in yer face'.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-17 15:05 by Silver Dagger.
Same here .
I love languages other than mine.I "learn "from it ,and it goes to other contries, way of living may be . ,
To be honest, there are some languages I wouldn't want to learn .
I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .
Eh? There's no prison in (or near) Margate.
Newgate (London) maybe ?....I think that's quite famous even though it was demolished in 1904..........................
I think Keith consciously tried to change his voice, how he moved etc, his dartford mumble and physical awkwardness gave way to what I believe is a contrived act of cool. The hip talk and hip mannerisms, about as real as Mick's voices and characters.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-17 15:52 by His Majesty.
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Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: September 16, 2011 14:14
Mick probaly learnt both his main accents as a child, his English 'pathe news' accent from his parents and his north Kent/south Essex (or 'cockney' as he loosely sounds like) from kids in the schoolyard.
His parents would most likely have said something like upon meeting someone "How ARE you, I hope you're doing well" whereas the kids in school in that part of Kent..(Dartford, not far from Gravesend where I also lived briefly as a child) would say "Watcha, 'ow ya doin, alright ?" As you obviously spend a lot of time with your schoolmates I would suggest that both examples of how to speak were genuine influences. The situation would dictate which influence would dominate. My experience was that if I spoke with the 'Army mid-atlantic' accent that I was taught by my army parents in school then I would spend more time 'fighting' about it with the locals than playing football and if I spoke 'schoolyard' at home I would get a clip 'round the ear off my mother. "It's Help not 'elp"..........................
My guess is that Keith admired Mick's linguistic dexterity and emulated his 'posh' accent to give himself a bit more scope as he did with Ry Cooder's licks and then as his horizons broadened learnt from others too. I'm pretty confident that although he may not ever say it now Keith would have said "Watcha" a lot as a child.
There is also something else that might be a consideration........that Mick may not only have multiple accents but multiple personalites. I saw a interview with him once, someone asked if he got nervous before going on stage........he said "No....what happens is I go into a sort of trance like state and my stage persona takes over and then I'm ready to go".................
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 14:39 by EddieByword.
His parents would most likely have said something like upon meeting someone "How ARE you, I hope you're doing well" whereas the kids in school in that part of Kent..(Dartford, not far from Gravesend where I also lived briefly as a child) would say "Watcha, 'ow ya doin, alright ?" As you obviously spend a lot of time with your schoolmates I would suggest that both examples of how to speak were genuine influences. The situation would dictate which influence would dominate. My experience was that if I spoke with the 'Army mid-atlantic' accent that I was taught by my army parents in school then I would spend more time 'fighting' about it with the locals than playing football and if I spoke 'schoolyard' at home I would get a clip 'round the ear off my mother. "It's Help not 'elp"..........................
My guess is that Keith admired Mick's linguistic dexterity and emulated his 'posh' accent to give himself a bit more scope as he did with Ry Cooder's licks and then as his horizons broadened learnt from others too. I'm pretty confident that although he may not ever say it now Keith would have said "Watcha" a lot as a child.
There is also something else that might be a consideration........that Mick may not only have multiple accents but multiple personalites. I saw a interview with him once, someone asked if he got nervous before going on stage........he said "No....what happens is I go into a sort of trance like state and my stage persona takes over and then I'm ready to go".................
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 14:39 by EddieByword.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: September 16, 2011 14:19
Quote
Sleepy CityQuote
Stoneage
Am I the only one who thinks he sounds very much like the "Naked Chef" Jamie Oliver?
Yes, very similar. Compare Mick at his most "normal" when he's relaxing with his family in 'Being Mick'.
Jamie is almost identic...that's generally why I watched his 2 first seasons...
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
crawdaddy
()
Date: September 16, 2011 14:31
Jamie has a lisp which comes out now and then.Sounds like Mick with a lisp. 
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 16, 2011 14:42
Quote
EddieByword
Mick probaly learnt both his main accents as a child, his English 'pathe news' accent from his parents and his north Kent/south Essex (or 'cockney' as he loosely sounds like) from kids in the schoolyard.
His parents would most likely have said something like upon meeting someone "How ARE you, I hope you're doing well" whereas the kids in school in that part of Kent..(Dartford, not far from Gravesend where I also lived briefly as a child) would say "Watcha, 'ow ya doin, alright ?" As you obviously spend a lot of time with your schoolmates I would suggest that both examples of how to speak were genuine influences. The situation would dictate which influence would dominate. My experience was that if I spoke with the 'Army mid-atlantic' accent that I was taught by my army parents in school then I would spend more time 'fighting' about it with the locals than playing football and if I spoke 'schoolyard' at home I would get a clip 'round the ear off my mother. "It's Help not 'elp"..........................
My guess is that Keith admired Mick's linguistic dexterity and emulated his 'posh' accent to give himself a bit more scope as he did with Ry Cooder's licks and then as his horizons broadened learnt from others too. I'm pretty confident that although he may not ever say it now Keith would have said "Watcha" a lot as a child.
Good point Eddie. Let's talk about Keith here too. I presume Keith went the opposite way to Mick, learning to speak in a fairly midddle class accent.
Unfortunately I don't think there are any very early interviews with him where we can hear his accent. (In fact when was the first TV interview with Keith - Australia 73?)
But I should imagine that at some point in the mid-60s - after coming into contact with aristocratic hippies and posh druggies - Keith began to speak in a more laid-back way, more considered and clearly thinking before opening his mouth.
In interviews now, Keith can be extremely erudite and wordly, something I think he has learned during his career as a rock star.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
crawdaddy
()
Date: September 16, 2011 14:59
The very first time I remember hearing Keiths voice was on The Old Grey Whistle Test back in the '70's. Talking to Bob Harris and it realy surprised me how Keith spoke.Nothing like I imagined.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:01
Quote
Silver Dagger
In fact when was the first TV interview with Keith - Australia 73?
There's interviews with all the band from the mid 60s (Scandinavia '65 springs to mind, though there's probably earlier ones).
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:04
Quote
Sleepy CityQuote
Silver Dagger
In fact when was the first TV interview with Keith - Australia 73?
There's interviews with all the band from the mid 60s (Scandinavia '65 springs to mind, though there's probably earlier ones).
Keith's voice sounds surprisingly similar to Mick's "normal" voice here:
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
paulm
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:05
Great post Eddie! 
What does 'pathe news' refer to?
And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?
Interesting interview there Sleepy. MJ does sound the most Cockney I'd say.
Can anyone weigh in on Bear Grylls?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 15:15 by paulm.
What does 'pathe news' refer to?And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?
Interesting interview there Sleepy. MJ does sound the most Cockney I'd say.
Can anyone weigh in on Bear Grylls?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 15:15 by paulm.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
still ill
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:08
Here's a link to the Ed Rudy radio interviews from 1965. Pretty interesting, Keith sounds nothing like he did even 10 years later.
[thinhippo.com]
[thinhippo.com]
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:16
Quote
paulm
And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?
No.
For a true Cockney, check out interviews with Steve Marriott.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:18
Quote
still ill
Here's a link to the Ed Rudy radio interviews from 1965. Pretty interesting, Keith sounds nothing like he did even 10 years later.
[thinhippo.com]
Even by 1969 his voice had changed a lot (check out 'Gimme Shelter' movie, where he's using words like "man" & "cat" in a very American way).
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:20
For true cockney: Ian Dury ?? No ??
2 1 2 0
2 1 2 0
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:21
Quote
Come On
For true cockney: Ian Dury ?? No ??
Maybe, & Suggs of Madness too.
Here's Steve Marriott:
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
crawdaddy
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:31
Steve Marriot is a great example of a natural cockney.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
paulm
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:38
got it...sounds like Phil Collins a lil' bit.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
still ill
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:40
Quote
Sleepy CityQuote
still ill
Here's a link to the Ed Rudy radio interviews from 1965. Pretty interesting, Keith sounds nothing like he did even 10 years later.
[thinhippo.com]
Even by 1969 his voice had changed a lot (check out 'Gimme Shelter' movie, where he's using words like "man" & "cat" in a very American way).
Yep, plus of course mixing with the great and good in London and people like Marianne who he ordinarily wouldn't have been exposed to. Anyway he wasn't that badly spoken to begin with, just good old fashioned estuary english.
Mick was more middle class so spoke better but even his natural accent is somewhere between posh, if you like and common, to be politically incorrect. He has always poshed it up or down depending on who he is speaking to. My dad does this as well, it's quite annoying
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:44
Quote
paulm
Great post Eddie!
And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?
Interesting interview there Sleepy. MJ does sound the most Cockney I'd say.
Can anyone weigh in on Bear Grylls?
Thanks.........
Pathe news was a news item that was commonly shown before the main feature at the cinema in Britain in the '50's & '60's...(It actually originated in the US..Warner production)...in Britain it was presented by a chap who always spoke the most eloquent 'Queen's English. No slang.
The Monkees - Pathe News....Stones @ 1 min 48 secs
Pathe news - Rolling Stones
As I say there was also the original US version...........
Quote Paulm.......And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?
It's like anywhere, as you move geographically the accent slowly changes, technically to be a Cockney you have to live within earshot of the Bow (Church)bells. That is a church in a place called Bow in East London. Dartford is about 15 miles east of East London (On the banks of the Thames Estuary as it widens before reaching the North sea.)........so not technically 'CockneyLand' but still as they are quite close to each other the accents are very similar. But I'm sure though that a 100% genuine Cockey lad could tell in an instant that Mick Jagger even with his best Dartford schoolyard dialect is not a Cockney....
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 16:20 by EddieByword.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Rolling Hansie
()
Date: September 16, 2011 15:50
Thanks for this great thread. English is not my mothertongue, but I am very much interested in it. Just love those different accents and dialects.
-------------------
Keep On Rolling
-------------------
Keep On Rolling
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: September 16, 2011 16:07
Quote
Come On
For true cockney: Ian Dury ?? No ??
No......Essex........although not straight forward again with Ian ....born in West london, moved to Essex when young, then got polio and was sent to disabled child's boarding school in Sussex, different accent again.......and to top that off his mother (Divorced) was from Cornwall ...completely different again........and like Mick's parents - middle class. His mother was a bohemian daughter of a well to do and respected doctor who had a lot of land. His father was from central London but he hardly saw him when growing up.
...................
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-16 20:46 by EddieByword.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 16, 2011 16:25
Quote
paulm
And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?
Estuary English and Cockney are related in that they both grew from the original language spoken by the working classes in east London. Both are spoken with broadened vowels.
Where Cockney is different is that it is generally spoken in a faster way. Cockney venacular is more clipped and speedy in its delivery while Estuary English is not so 'in yer face'.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-17 15:05 by Silver Dagger.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 16, 2011 18:16
Someone whose speaking voice changed even more dramatically in a short while was the other Keith - Keith Moon. In The Who's early days he had a similar working class London accent to Roger & John, but within a few years he'd adopted a weird fake "posh" voice.
One reason those with strong accents change their way of speaking of course is simply to be understood. When I spent a couple of weeks in Memphis & Nashville a few weeks back I had to really slow down & speak carefully for anyone to understand a word I said...
One reason those with strong accents change their way of speaking of course is simply to be understood. When I spent a couple of weeks in Memphis & Nashville a few weeks back I had to really slow down & speak carefully for anyone to understand a word I said...
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
SwayStones
()
Date: September 16, 2011 20:43
Quote
Rolling Hansie
Thanks for this great thread. English is not my mothertongue, but I am very much interested in it. Just love those different accents and dialects.
Same here .
I love languages other than mine.I "learn "from it ,and it goes to other contries, way of living may be . ,
To be honest, there are some languages I wouldn't want to learn .
I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
paulm
()
Date: September 16, 2011 23:54
Great posts, thanks Eddie, Silver et al.
Just took a gander with Google Maps "Man" and checked out that estuary, living near one or two myself here on the opposite coast. Dartford looks pretty urban and industrial from the bridge, which shouldn't surprise me given proximity to London...Margate and Southend on Sea look more like my kinda places...open space, coastline...guess Margate's got more going for it than a famous prison.
The Sussex coast seems to resemble the east coast as well. Seems pretty flat water.
Just took a gander with Google Maps "Man" and checked out that estuary, living near one or two myself here on the opposite coast. Dartford looks pretty urban and industrial from the bridge, which shouldn't surprise me given proximity to London...Margate and Southend on Sea look more like my kinda places...open space, coastline...guess Margate's got more going for it than a famous prison.
The Sussex coast seems to resemble the east coast as well. Seems pretty flat water.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 17, 2011 00:34
Quote
paulm
Margate and Southend on Sea look more like my kinda places...open space, coastline...guess Margate's got more going for it than a famous prison.
Eh? There's no prison in (or near) Margate.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: September 17, 2011 00:56
Quote
Sleepy CityQuote
paulm
Margate and Southend on Sea look more like my kinda places...open space, coastline...guess Margate's got more going for it than a famous prison.
Eh? There's no prison in (or near) Margate.
Newgate (London) maybe ?....I think that's quite famous even though it was demolished in 1904..........................
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
paulm
()
Date: September 17, 2011 02:00
Indeed, Newgate was on my mind...sorry chaps!
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
ohcarol
()
Date: September 17, 2011 02:37
Im thinking more of a south Alabama twang......with a little eastern Kentucky mabey.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: September 17, 2011 14:40
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
paulm
And so Estuary English and Cockney are interchangeable?Quote
Estuary English and Cockney are related in that they both grew from the original language spoken by the working classes in east London. Both are spoken with broadened vowels.
Where Cockney is different is that it is generally spoken in a faster way. Cockney venacular is more clipped and speedy in its delivery while Estuary English is not so 'in yer face'.
Cockney, Kent, Essex and West London are real accents - "Estuary English" is a basic "London-ish" accent which is adopted by people all over the south of England when they don't want to sound either too posh or too rural.
West London is Ronnie's accent (and he hasn't changed it over the years), as here in this interview. Much less intense than Cockney. Christian O'Connell, the interviewer, comes from Hampshire, but his accent has a bit of Estuary English mixed in with it by now.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: September 17, 2011 15:20
Quote
Sleepy CityQuote
still ill
Here's a link to the Ed Rudy radio interviews from 1965. Pretty interesting, Keith sounds nothing like he did even 10 years later.
[thinhippo.com]
Even by 1969 his voice had changed a lot (check out 'Gimme Shelter' movie, where he's using words like "man" & "cat" in a very American way).
I think Keith consciously tried to change his voice, how he moved etc, his dartford mumble and physical awkwardness gave way to what I believe is a contrived act of cool. The hip talk and hip mannerisms, about as real as Mick's voices and characters.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-17 15:52 by His Majesty.
Re: Brits Interpret MJ's Accent??
Posted by:
paulm
()
Date: September 17, 2011 16:21
Great radio interview there GL 
Majesty I also notice the mumble and awkwardness from KR's early days. I will say that his American affectation is strictly NYC, even a lil' retro, bordering on hard boiled noir flicks of the 40s--Bogart comes to mind--whereas MJ likes to do the southern thang as we all know.
As far as affectations go, it's real noticeable to me when a Yank tries a Brit accent. A glaring example would be Madonna.
Majesty I also notice the mumble and awkwardness from KR's early days. I will say that his American affectation is strictly NYC, even a lil' retro, bordering on hard boiled noir flicks of the 40s--Bogart comes to mind--whereas MJ likes to do the southern thang as we all know.
As far as affectations go, it's real noticeable to me when a Yank tries a Brit accent. A glaring example would be Madonna.
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