Attending many various concerts myself since 1976, I must admit that unless you remember specific songs from a show, it is highly impossible to recall a setlist from memory unless:

1. Your are a fanatic following a band from city to city
2. You write it down
3. Most critic reviews in local newspapers only mention partial sets of highlighted songs but assuming the critic was attending the show as an employee of the newspaper, chances are they wrote down the entire setlist in their notes.

As an avid reader of history, a critical note of importance on any information from a written event is that: primary sources of information are those that spoke to participants of the event or someone themselves that attended the event including written documentation from someone who attended the event. Even then facts can be distorted. Everything else is secondary and beyond.

far out - well done Erik Snow!
[passing extra popcorn & flinging confetti of congratulations over the damn place :E]

yes they played WH in 1976 but my point was keith had never played the solo live and I was wondering who played the solo live in newcastle 1971.

play the guitar boy

I tend to believe old Bill (and the articles above), at least with regard to Knocking, because Knocking is a unique number in the stones catalog, and I bet it must have been quite a pain in the arse to rehearse it decently.

These things tend to stick in your mind.

C

it's no fun unless we can still have some doubting thomases until audio evidence is supplied. i volunteer.

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liddas
I tend to believe old Bill (and the articles above), at least with regard to Knocking [...]

Well yes so do I; BUT - there are a lot mistakes, at least "setlist-wise" in Bill Wymans book. I was not prepared for those "obvious mistakes"......as Bill previously seem to have it all under control.

But - at least he was right about the 1971 setlist !

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Erik_Snow

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liddas
I tend to believe old Bill (and the articles above), at least with regard to Knocking [...]

Well yes so do I; BUT - there are a lot mistakes, at least "setlist-wise" in Bill Wymans book. I was not prepared for those "obvious mistakes"......as Bill previously seem to have it all under control.

But - at least he was right about the 1971 setlist !

What is Bill's source of the setlist, his memory or his diary or ?

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The Sicilian
Attending many various concerts myself since 1976, I must admit that unless you remember specific songs from a show, it is highly impossible to recall a setlist from memory unless:

1. Your are a fanatic following a band from city to city
2. You write it down
3. Most critic reviews in local newspapers only mention partial sets of highlighted songs but assuming the critic was attending the show as an employee of the newspaper, chances are they wrote down the entire setlist in their notes.

As an avid reader of history, a critical note of importance on any information from a written event is that: primary sources of information are those that spoke to participants of the event or someone themselves that attended the event including written documentation from someone who attended the event. Even then facts can be distorted. Everything else is secondary and beyond.

and your point is ?

i personally think both songs were played but both songs were also less well received by the audience, or in CYHMK case, didn't quite work, and were dropped.

we also have wild horses played in 1971 on the TV show.

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Eleanor Rigby
and your point is ?

Don't ask him. He never has any



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-16 18:07 by Erik_Snow.

Well done Erik. One wonders why it was dropped from the '71 tour set list and not played again until many years later...

Great find! However, just to note -we knew CYHMK and Wild Horses was played in '71 since, well, 1971. We only didn't know at which show. We knew it from the March '71 NME article, where a reporter traveled with the Stones (by train, funnily). A short review of the Newcastle and Manchester show was given, and Jagger was interviewed. Both the review and the interview revealed that WH and CYHMK where played, with Jagger remarking that those songs didn't go very well. The audience didn't seem to react at all to those tracks. It was not clear though on which show the tracks where played.

It is also from this article if I remember correctly that we know that Taylor’s Gibson LP with Bigsby was stolen, apparently while boarding a train. On this pics Taylor’s plays the LP he used as backup, and used on the ’72 tour.

Mathijs

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nankerphlege
Interesting to see Keith and MT playing fender's not ampeg amps. Now we need a recording of this show. Very good research!

That's why the Leeds and Marquee shows feature such clean guitars, and are so mediocre in my opinion. At The Roundhouse probably the Ampegs where used again, as the guitars are much more overdriven.

Mathijs

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Erik_Snow

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Eleanor Rigby
and your point is ?

Don't ask him. He never have any point

Thanks for the compliment Erik.

My point is this, some question the authenticity of Bill's memory in his book, others are totally sold by it. Yet still others believe someone elses version.

The only way to truly authenticate the validity of an event is by reviewing the documentation from the participants AND any written entries from someone who was there period. Everything else is heresay. It really helps to have corroborating info from others as well.

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The Sicilian

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Erik_Snow

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Eleanor Rigby
and your point is ?

Don't ask him. He never have any point

Thanks for the compliment Erik.

My point is this, some question the authenticity of Bill's memory in his book, others are totally sold by it. Yet still others believe someone elses version.

The only way to truly authenticate the validity of an event is by reviewing the documentation from the participants AND any written entries from someone who was there period. Everything else is heresay. It really helps to have corroborating info from others as well.

Keith and Bobby Keys have also stated in separate interviews that CYHMK was played in 1971. It was never a case of solely relying on Bill. So, three of the eight musicians who played on that tour who have been asked if it was played have all said that it was. I've never heard of any of the others saying that it had never been played until 2002, apart from (I think) Mick Jagger, whose memory for these kind of things is notoriously diabolical.

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straycatuk
A shame there is no recording of the Newcastle shows. Always good to hear the odd performances of songs that soon get dropped as the set list firms up.


sc uk

There's a pretty poor sounding tape of two songs from one of the shows (from memory it's the first one, I think).

Is there any definite proof that Keith used the acoustic for Wild Horses?
During all other 1970s performaces of this song he played it on the electric.

I can imagine he used the acoustic for "Prodigal Song" but wouldn't be surprised if he went electric on "wild Horses" as he also does on "Dead Flowers"

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Gazza

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The Sicilian

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Erik_Snow

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Eleanor Rigby
and your point is ?

Don't ask him. He never have any point

Thanks for the compliment Erik.

My point is this, some question the authenticity of Bill's memory in his book, others are totally sold by it. Yet still others believe someone elses version.

The only way to truly authenticate the validity of an event is by reviewing the documentation from the participants AND any written entries from someone who was there period. Everything else is heresay. It really helps to have corroborating info from others as well.

Keith and Bobby Keys have also stated in separate interviews that CYHMK was played in 1971. It was never a case of solely relying on Bill. So, three of the eight musicians who played on that tour who have been asked if it was played have all said that it was. I've never heard of any of the others saying that it had never been played until 2002, apart from (I think) Mick Jagger, whose memory for these kind of things is notoriously diabolical.

And there is the basis of the point Eleanor, corroborating info. However, from a historical standpoint, taking Gazza'a word of these interviews is again secondary info that can only be substantiated by the actual interviews in print or on tape themselves. Without those interviews, one can call them hearsay as well.

No offense Gazza, just completing the point for the naysayers.

Is there a version of CYHMK with Mick Taylor Live?

I'd Looooooooooove to hear a Stones with Taylor version, in whatever quality tbh.

Theres gotta be someone with a boot of it somewhere

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The Sicilian

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Gazza

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The Sicilian

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Erik_Snow

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Eleanor Rigby
and your point is ?

Don't ask him. He never have any point

Thanks for the compliment Erik.

My point is this, some question the authenticity of Bill's memory in his book, others are totally sold by it. Yet still others believe someone elses version.

The only way to truly authenticate the validity of an event is by reviewing the documentation from the participants AND any written entries from someone who was there period. Everything else is heresay. It really helps to have corroborating info from others as well.

Keith and Bobby Keys have also stated in separate interviews that CYHMK was played in 1971. It was never a case of solely relying on Bill. So, three of the eight musicians who played on that tour who have been asked if it was played have all said that it was. I've never heard of any of the others saying that it had never been played until 2002, apart from (I think) Mick Jagger, whose memory for these kind of things is notoriously diabolical.

And there is the basis of the point Eleanor, corroborating info. However, from a historical standpoint, taking Gazza'a word of these interviews is again secondary info that can only be substantiated by the actual interviews in print or on tape themselves. Without those interviews, one can call them hearsay as well.

No offense Gazza, just completing the point for the naysayers.

i'd just like point out that there's a difference between being a naysayer and a doubting thomas. naysayers say nay, whilst us doubting thomases just doubt.

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vudicus
Is there any definite proof that Keith used the acoustic for Wild Horses?
During all other 1970s performaces of this song he played it on the electric.

I can imagine he used the acoustic for "Prodigal Song" but wouldn't be surprised if he went electric on "wild Horses" as he also does on "Dead Flowers"

Didn't he use a Dobro for Prodigal Son? At least in '69 he did. Thus, Erik's assumption that the acoustic was used for Wild Horses makes perfect sense to me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-16 18:54 by Greenblues.

I am probably wrong but I think they had rehersals in 1972 in the USA and fooled
around with CYHMK on some soundcheck boot.

play the guitar boy

No I stand corrected was it on the Can You Hear The Mobile Rehersal Boot from 8-18-73 they fooled around with CYHMK

play the guitar boy

No I was incorrect they did play can you hear the music, 100 years Ago, Heartbreaker Dancing With MR D and Shine A Light and others on the Can Your Hear The Mobile Rehersals but not CYHMK


play the guitar boy

boooo

I went to one of the Manchester shows in March 71, and I'm pretty certain CYHMK and Wild Horses weren't played - Brown Sugar and Bitch were introduced as new songs from Sticky Fingers, but the rest of the set were familiar songs. The other thing I remember was Keith picking up his acoustic for Love In Vain, and finding it was so far out of tune that they abandoned it.

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Gazza
There's a pretty poor sounding tape of two songs from one of the shows (from memory it's the first one, I think).

No that "2-track tape" is a fake thing. It's just 2 songs from Newcastle 1973 in horrible quality, and wrong speed.

Did the plexiglas guitar(s) get stolen at Nellcote?

Hello Mathijs!
You say that we knew for long that CYHMK & WH were performed by quoting an interview with Jagger.
The NME was indeed very close to the Stones from ~1970 to ~1976, thanks to reporters like Roy Carr, Charles Shaar Murray and Nick Kent.
The only thing is,how much can we trust Mick Jagger remembering setlists??
I seem to remember a Jagger interview in NME from the mid-seventies, when Jagger stated, that they had also performed "Sister Morphine" once!
I know I made a mistake, when I sold all my NMEs back in the eighties;
if I still had them,I would spend a week trying to find that interview again;
if only to see whether or not my memory serves me well!!

Ah, I forgot,thanks of course to Jean Marie & Erik!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-16 21:46 by Rank Stranger.

Great news!!! thanks

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Captainchaos
Is there a version of CYHMK with Mick Taylor Live?

I'd Looooooooooove to hear a Stones with Taylor version, in whatever quality tbh.

Theres gotta be someone with a boot of it somewhere

There isnt. Thats the whole point - ie the debate of whether or not it was performed prior to the Licks tour in 2002.

The 1971 tour is the most poorly documented of any Stones tours after 1966. Ten days of shows in small theatres, with only three of them (Coventry, London Roundhouse and the broadcast of the Leeds show) in circulation.