I'm dubious Dylan influenced the Stones and the Beatles as much as new ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE cover story claims

I must say—other than All Along the Watchtower—I'm not familiar with the Dylan album under question (not being a Dylan fan) but the claim at the bottom of column two, cont'd on column three, is a bit much. What do you think?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-01 20:52 by bv.

"Once Jagger and Richards stared writing their own material in the mid-1960s, you can see Dylan's imprint on songs like "19th Nervous Breakdown" and "Mother's Little Helper". In late 1967, after a year of drug busts and poor reviews (the underrated Their Satanic Majesties Request LP), the Stones needed to change direction. Marianne Faithfull, Jagger's girlfriend at the time, had gotten a hold of some of Dylan and the Band's Basement Tapes acetates, and played them for Mick, which further influenced his songwriting.

According to a 1995 Rolling Stone interview, Jagger said that "Sympathy For The Devil" "was taken from an old idea of Baudelaire's, I think, but I could be wrong. Sometimes when I look at my Baudelaire books, I can't see it in there. But it was an idea I got from French writing. And I just took a couple of lines and expanded on it. I wrote it as sort of like a Bob Dylan song."

[www.examiner.com]

I think it was lyrically that Dylan was a particular influence on his contemporaries. Dylan's lyrics were descriptive and story-like which caught the attention of many. The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan LP was a particular influence on Lennon during the writing and recording of Beatles For Sale, for instance.

I routinely get trashed by music junkies for calling Dylan overrated. But I also missed his golden age of the mid to late 60s, going from folk to rock. Gylan was the first concert I left early from in 1978. To a degree, I think some of Dylan's mystique is just a case of the emperor's new clothes. Just my opinion.

But, hey, I know Dylan influenced the late, great Dewey Cox (or was it Cox that influenced Dylan?).

I just listened to the iTunes preview of the album, and the word "influenced" could be used, but the word that's too strong for me in the article is "retrenched."

Why is it a bit much? The Beatles and the Stones looked up to Dylan. He was the rock star's rock star. Still is. They fawn over him, not the other way around. He was a star before they were. John Lennon was obviously influenced early on. He went from writing about holding girl's hands to being a loser overnight. If Dylan went in a new direction, the Beatles, the Stones, a lot of people in the rock work, would tend to at least try and understand what that direction was.

Dylan was more influenced musically by the Stones, but they were in turn influenced by his songwriting.

I loose interest in Dylan after Nashville Skyline. Blood On The Tracks is a decent album, but for me, it's all about those early folk recordings. I'll take the Freewheelin', Time They Are-A Changing, etc, over anything that came later. The first disc of the Bootleg Series 1-3 is, perhaps, one of my very favourite set of recordings.

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Big Al
I loose interest in Dylan after Nashville Skyline. Blood On The Tracks is a decent album, but for me, it's all about those early folk recordings. I'll take the Freewheelin', Time They Are-A Changing, etc, over anything that came later. The first disc of the Bootleg Series 1-3 is, perhaps, one of my very favourite set of recordings.

I think Dylan's best album was Desire, and I love Blood On The Tracks, No Mercy and Time Out Of Mind - and there's several others that I consider to be far greater than his early folk albums.

ridiculous

If Jigsaw Puzzle isn't directly influenced I'll be a monkey's uncle.

You can be dubious all you like but I'm going to disagree with that.

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seitan


I think Dylan's best album was Desire, and I love Blood On The Tracks, No Mercy and Time Out Of Mind - and there's several others that I consider to be far greater than his early folk albums.

Well that's perfectly OK. Actually, it's one of the terrific things about Dylan and a reason to love the guy so much: there i something for everyone. My particular liking of the early Dylan is probably due to the LP's and singles my late father had in his collection. He bought the Freewhelin' in 1963 and enjoyed everything up to and including Bringing It All Back Home. I've progressed a little further with my liking and appreciation of all things Bob, but I have some way to go before I feel the need to check-out much of his post-60's output. I saw him live in 2001 and thought it to be atrocious. My poor father, I suspect, was hoping to see him sat on a stool with an acoustic guitar. I did explain to him that Dylan's changed somewhat since 1963!

Why be dubious about the obvious? The reporter is only stating things that obviously happened. It's not his opinion it's fact. Maybe you don't like the way he articulated it but he's correct.

The Beatles and Stones fawned over Dylan? Ridiculous. The Beatles were the phenomenon that took the world by storm and The Stones weren't far behind as far as popularity. Musically they all influenced each other to some degree.

"Lyin' awake in a cold, cold sweat. Am I overdrawn, am I going in debt?
It gets worse, the older that you get. No escape from the state of confusion I'm in.

Of course Dylan had a huge influence on Stones in 1967/1968 but even more so by his "Basement Tapes" sessions with the band in 1967 than John Wesley Harding, from what I understand. An acetate of those Basement sessions circulated among Rolling Stones and Beatles in early 1968

There is NO doubt of Dylan's influence on the Stones and Beatles about songs that would...last.

And then there was Hendrix, who in his struggling days in New York, who memorized ever Dylan song he heard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-31 21:45 by stonesrule.

Not only Jigsaw Puzzle, but Who's Been Sleeping Here is a Blonde On Blonde era influenced tune. She Smiled Sweetly also has a bit of a 4th Time Around / Norwegian Wood vibe, too.

2,000 Man also has a Dylan / Byrds folk rock feel.

Also, forgot Who's Been Driving Your Plane and Leopard Skin Pillbox Hat.

Mick talks about Dylan in an October 1968 Rolling Stone interview:

What other group ever wrote a song like "19th Nervous Breakdown," or "Mother's Little Helper"?
Well, Bob Dylan.

That's not really the same thing.
Dylan once said, "I could have written 'Satisfaction' but you couldn't have written 'Tamborine Man.'"

He said that to you?
No, to Keith.

What did he mean? He wasn't putting you down was he?
Oh yeah, of course he was. But that was just funny, it was great. That's what he's like. It's true but I'd like to hear Bob Dylan sing "I Can't Get No Satisfaction."
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Have you been influenced by The Byrds and Dylan with their country albums?
Yeah, but Keith has always been country. That's what his scene was. We still think of country songs as a bit of a joke, I'm afraid. We don't really know anything about country music really, we're just playing games. We aren't really into it enough to know. I think it's going to be a good album.
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When is "The Performance" due to begin?
August something.

Wasn't the script written especially for you?
Yeah, I mean it's very much me. I'm going to make it if I can, different to me. I mean, he is me, the me on that album cover. He is supposed to be a great writer, like Dylan. But he's completely immersed in himself, he's a horrible person really.

[www.rollingstone.com]

From Keith's 2010 interview at the New York Public Library:

Anthony DeCurtis: How important was someone like Bob Dylan to you?

KR: Bob’s an inspiration to all always and will always be. He came out in defiance of all the odds, what great songs, beautifully expressed and beautifully written and he had a large effect, I don’t say on the Stones particularly, but just all around. John Lennon was incredibly impressed with Bob right from the word go, and he also put a new slant on how you could write songs and do they all have to be three minutes long? Or if you need a little more time to express what you want to say, take it and do it. And we sort of took that along with us, and we started doing eleven-minute tracks and stuff. But all those guys, and Bob particularly, opened up possibilities, probably a lot to do with the fact that the long-playing album was becoming the preferred method of recording, so you didn’t have to rely on a hit every three months or every two, in other words you weren’t into that—you could get out of that grind of Tin Pan Alley, and people accepted an album as a viable means to express yourself, which obviously gave the artists a lot more time to be able to come up with the stuff.

[www.nypl.org]

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bye bye johnny

What did he mean? He wasn't putting you down was he?
Oh yeah, of course he was. But that was just funny, it was great. That's what he's like. It's true but I'd like to hear Bob Dylan sing "I Can't Get No Satisfaction.

I always wondered if Mick has heard Bob's version of Brown Sugar:







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-31 22:22 by Cristiano Radtke.

He was a leader. Even Hendrix followed Dylan. Hendrix influenced the Beatles (just listen to Sgt Pepper, the chords are Purple Haze) and the Stones. Velvet Underground inspired at least the Stones (not just Stray cat Blues).

This is actually an important thread, for a change, and Keith's remarks to DeCurtis are significant and well-put as to how good musicians thought at that time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-01 01:36 by stonesrule.

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stonesrule
This is actually an important thread, for a change

I agree with you.

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treaclefingers
If Jigsaw Puzzle isn't directly influenced I'll be a monkey's uncle.

You can be dubious all you like but I'm going to disagree with that.

"Family" even more so.

Dylan influenced the Beatles and Stones and the Beatles and Stones influenced Dylan. Each had what the other thought they could use to improve their craft. Dylan had great and substantial songwriting/lyrics and Dylan was always attracted by the prospect of being in a rock band.

Had the British invasion not happened and rock remained in the watered-down state it had been in through the early 60s, Dylan might not have gone electric when he did.

ROCKMAN

Most rock journalists, historians and aficionados usually point to JWH as when the penny dropped and all the psychedelic nonsense had to stop. Don't know if Dylan's responsible for it, but he gets a lot of credit for it. There's a wonderful book called Are You Ready For The Country? where they cover this is a few chapters; basically saying it was time to get back to the roots: acoustic music, country, blues, etc..
Add Dylan's Basement Tapes circulating among the musicians at the time (and the Band's Big Pink) and you can see the results.

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tomk
Most rock journalists, historians and aficionados usually point to JWH as when the penny dropped and all the psychedelic nonsense had to stop.

The music changed when the drugs changed. LSD had run its course after 1967, and most musicians were just getting back to their rock n roll roots. Eric Burdon explains it well enough in Tony Palmer's 1968 film All My Loving (beginning at 1:36 in the clip below).

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FrankM
The Beatles and Stones fawned over Dylan? Ridiculous. The Beatles were the phenomenon that took the world by storm and The Stones weren't far behind as far as popularity. Musically they all influenced each other to some degree.

Well, they did. Dylan was already a star when the Fab Four landed in America in their matching suits. They went to meet him and he got them stoned for the first time because he misunderstood their lyric "I Can't Hide" as "I Get High". Dylan was much hipper than the Beatles. Sure, Dylan wasn't big with the teenyboppers, but he was certainly big with the artists. Brian especially sought Dylan out and spent time with him. Dylan was New York, the others were Liverpool and London, not exactly swinging hot spots in the early 60s. Dylan stood at Dr. King's side during the 'I Have A Dream' speech, having just performed at the event.

And the Stones aren't even in the same league of songwriting as Dylan, or even Lennon/McCartney. Both of those entities had numerous artists chart, sometimes top the charts, with their compositions. I can't name one chart topping Jagger/Richards song by another artist. At least not here in the States.

Face it, Dylan is the artist's artist, somebody they look up to. Ask George Harrison.

Ask George Harrison.....now that's gonna be a tuff one



ROCKMAN

Rockee, you're on fire today...tonight! Loved that Jagger quote.

I will ponder asking George Harrison but even I can't pull that off now.

As for LSD being over by the end of 67, it didn't really end until the early 70's when all the boys discovered cocaine. I remember Randy Newman (whose father a doctor) telling me: "Dad says, "Randy, tell all those muscians that cocaine will mess them up in ways they don't want to know about."