OK there are most likely former employees of AK who read this board

as I'm sure there are savvy music biz folks also reading
...can anyone offer a clarification of how AK was able to own all the great Stones songs up to 'Angie'..?

been reading Keith's account of it in 'Life'...don't have it here at the moment...

that AK set up two companies, one in the UK, one in the US, and funneled all their money into the US one, which had the same name.
Correct?

then how did he extract their songs? thats where it gets muddy...

AK did set them up a great contract...was that the price? as Keith allowed, he views it as an education, and doesn't really care..

and I realize its been discussed but its far from clear

thanks in advance

I think Klein set it up for the Stones to have total artistic control, which was almost unheard of.

IMO, the Stones were still young & carefree, and ignorant of the financial and long-term impact of what they were agreeing to.

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duke richardson
OK there are most likely former employees of AK who read this board

as I'm sure there are savvy music biz folks also reading
...can anyone offer a clarification of how AK was able to own all the great Stones songs up to 'Angie'..?

been reading Keith's account of it in 'Life'...don't have it here at the moment...

that AK set up two companies, one in the UK, one in the US, and funneled all their money into the US one, which had the same name.
Correct?

then how did he extract their songs? thats where it gets muddy...

AK did set them up a great contract...was that the price? as Keith allowed, he views it as an education, and doesn't really care..

and I realize its been discussed but its far from clear

thanks in advance

Not quite the same name - thats where they got conned.

The Stones' publishing company was called Nanker Phelge Music, and they signed a deal (or so they thought) where their royalties would be paid into that company. Unfortunately for them, they signed a deal which authorised payments to be made into Nanker Phelge Music (USA), a company set up by Klein specifically to cream them.

More here in a piece by Bill Wyman (not THAT one, but the journalist of the same name)

[www.hitsville.org]

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Gazza

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duke richardson
OK there are most likely former employees of AK who read this board

as I'm sure there are savvy music biz folks also reading
...can anyone offer a clarification of how AK was able to own all the great Stones songs up to 'Angie'..?

been reading Keith's account of it in 'Life'...don't have it here at the moment...

that AK set up two companies, one in the UK, one in the US, and funneled all their money into the US one, which had the same name.
Correct?

then how did he extract their songs? thats where it gets muddy...

AK did set them up a great contract...was that the price? as Keith allowed, he views it as an education, and doesn't really care..

and I realize its been discussed but its far from clear

thanks in advance

Not quite the same name - thats where they got conned.

The Stones' publishing company was called Nanker Phelge Music, and they signed a deal (or so they thought) where their royalties would be paid into that company. Unfortunately for them, they signed a deal which authorised payments to be made into Nanker Phelge Music (USA), a company set up by Klein specifically to cream them.

More here in a piece by Bill Wyman (not THAT one, but the journalist of the same name)

[www.hitsville.org]

There's a tad more to it -Klein's main business was to buy full control over artists royalties and pay out a part to the artists. Before Klein, many artists only recieved a fairly small portion of royalties and most would go to the record and publishing companies. Klein basically told the artists: let me handle it, and you get 10 times more royalties, and according to many accounts this is exactly what he did. He made many artists, including the Stones, rich. The main problem though was that he controlled the money that came in and wasn't too keen on paying out, and that many artists find out that ending the contract with Klein was either very difficult or even impossible.

Mathijs

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duke richardson
AK did set them up a great contract...was that the price? as Keith allowed, he views it as an education, and doesn't really care..

Well, Keith is the one that was humilated - 'educated' - most, namely at least according to Philip Norman's book, and in fact Barbara Charone's too, Keith was the most into the contract, and he persuaded the others to accept the deal. Seemingly Klein's American ganster style and the promises of loads of money - and of the total artistic freedom - made the biggest impact on him. Only Bill Wyman - a skeptical old school Engishman - was the one who was against the deal in the end. Andrew Loog Oldham wrote in hindsight in his book that perhaps they should have listen over-all Wyman more than they did. Especially then.

Anyway, I can't really recall any comments by the others of the deal. Just Wyman saying "what did I say, what did I say, but they didn't listen..." and Keith trying to see the bright side of it - "education" that 'needed' to be done, etc. I rather to hear Jagger's account of it - what is quite known is that Jagger was really pissed to/about Klein, and worked really hard in the early 70's to get the away from him and get the business straight. I wonder how much Keith's credibility all-over in the Stones business suffered after seeing the results in Klein deal... "oh yeah, let's listen Keith again if there is a deal to make..."

In the end, I suppose Jagger learned A LOT, and paid a big price for that, but don't know about Keith... the pirate, of course, "doesn't care"...

In fact, we all - Stones fans - still suffer from that deal. In fact, the post-Klein Stones is just celebrating their 40th Anniversary.

- Doxa



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-22 19:13 by Doxa.

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Edith Grove
I think Klein set it up for the Stones to have total artistic control, which was almost unheard of.

that was ALO, actually, right from their very first contract with Decca.
ALO has said he did it that way because Phil Spector had said it was a good idea,
and he himself really didn't grasp the ramifications of it. as you say it was almost unheard of,
and it was absolutely crucial. the freedom to play music you love - and just look at them go

i love the Rolling Stones ... now back to the regularly scheduled ABKCO thread

Then there's the non payment of taxes. Nice lil mess they got themselves in to.

John Lennon kept telling Jagger how great Klein was.

But Paul McCartney didn't like him

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stonesrule
John Lennon kept telling Jagger how great Klein was.

Jagger actually was the one telling Lennon about Klein. Mick said, "Klein's all right, but you have trouble getting at the money." And Lennon said [to an interviewer later], "I figured that was a good thing." Which sounds stupid, but maybe Lennon figured Klein had the money locked up in some long term investments??? But Lennon later realized that wasn't good news. Jagger tried to warn Lennon off Klein and said, "Let's meet." And then Lennon showed up with Klein. So Jagger wasn't critical of Klein with Klein sitting right there. (I forget where I read that, but I believe I'm remembering that right,

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Doxa

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duke richardson
AK did set them up a great contract...was that the price? as Keith allowed, he views it as an education, and doesn't really care..

Well, Keith is the one that was humilated - 'educated' - most, namely at least according to Philip Norman's book, and in fact Barbara Charone's too, Keith was the most into the contract, and he persuaded the others to accept the deal. Seemingly Klein's American ganster style and the promises of loads of money - and of the total artistic freedom - made the biggest impact on him. Only Bill Wyman - a skeptical old school Engishman - was the one who was against the deal in the end. Andrew Loog Oldham wrote in hindsight in his book that perhaps they should have listen over-all Wyman more than they did. Especially then.

Anyway, I can't really recall any comments by the others of the deal. Just Wyman saying "what did I say, what did I say, but they didn't listen..." and Keith trying to see the bright side of it - "education" that 'needed' to be done, etc. I rather to hear Jagger's account of it - what is quite known is that Jagger was really pissed to/about Klein, and worked really hard in the early 70's to get the away from him and get the business straight. I wonder how much Keith's credibility all-over in the Stones business suffered after seeing the results in Klein deal... "oh yeah, let's listen Keith again if there is a deal to make..."

In the end, I suppose Jagger learned A LOT, and paid a big price for that, but don't know about Keith... the pirate, of course, "doesn't care"...

In fact, we all - Stones fans - still suffer from that deal. In fact, the post-Klein Stones is just celebrating their 40th Anniversary.

- Doxa

Yes, according to Wyman's book, when Bill voiced an objection, Keith snarled at him "Don't be so greedy!"

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Mathijs
Klein basically told the artists: let me handle it, and you get 10 times more royalties, and according to many accounts this is exactly what he did. He made many artists, including the Stones, rich. The main problem though was that he controlled the money that came in and wasn't too keen on paying out, and that many artists find out that ending the contract with Klein was either very difficult or even impossible.

Mathijs

The picture I have got from the artist's point of view - especially Bill Wyman's - that he made them theoretically rich. The problem was that you didn't see those riches in your bank count. Of course, this all is relative - they were buying expensive houses and cars and all that, and they got money somehow for those, even though it was difficult. Wyman claims that it was not so difficult for Mick and Keith to get the money from Klein, but in the end, Jagger at least weren't satisfied at all of how the things go, at least judging his desparate attempts to get rid of Klein..

It would be interesting to know how much money (for example, in percentage) the Stones finally got of what they theoretically earned during Klein days. If I understand the deal they made with Klein in 1971 to get out of him, was rather bad. They just wanted to get free almost any cost. I suppose not just their 60's hit catalogue but also lots of 'theoretical' money of theirs was left behind.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-22 22:48 by Doxa.

This all brings to mind Axl Rose's comment from an interview in yesterday's L.A. TIMES: "All these managers, they all believe in one thing: sell a reunion tour and get their commission. It's just a phone call. It's a half a day's … work, or however long they want to keep the bidding war going. They get their commission and they don't care if it falls on its face."

I read awhile ago that Mick said that he still wakes up at 3 am writhing in humiliation at the memory of how he sold away control of the RS' artistic legacy to ABK.

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Bliss
I read awhile ago that Mick said that he still wakes up at 3 am writhing in humiliation at the memory of how he sold away control of the RS' artistic legacy to ABK.

and I would believe it. That would have to be a real slow agonizing burn.

The most absurd and rapacious thing Klein did was: 1) When he was George Harrison's manager, he fought—alongside George—the plagiarism suit filed against George accusing George of plagiarizing the song HE'S SO FINE when writing MY SWEET LORD; and then later 2) Klein bought the other side of the lawsuit like an investment, and then proceeded to sue George for that very same plagiarism.

I recently read about how in the 90's he messed over The Verve on account of their song "Bittersweet Symphony". They sampled the orchestration from "The Last Time" in the song, with the blessing/licensing of Klein. When the song became successful Klein sued them for using "too much" sampling and won the copyright to the song. He then proceeded to sell the song to Nike, a car company, and a few others that wanted to use the song in commercials, against the wishes of the band. Eventually the band was able to block the song from being used in any further commercials. But by then it had been used to pimp many products.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but he also got his hands dirty with the proceeds of The Concert For Bangladesh. He never contacted UNICEF about donating the proceeds until after the concert was over, according to some he planned on the whole thing just being a payday scam, but George was adamant about actually donating the proceeds to charity, but by that time it was a little late and there was an investigation and the proceeds were frozen well into the 80's. He also sold promotional copies of the album for his own profit and did 2 months in jail.

It would seem that this dude didn't have a single business venture that he didn't handle dishonestly. He was such a straight up crook that it's unbelievable anybody worked with him. He had no shame.

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Doxa

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Mathijs
Klein basically told the artists: let me handle it, and you get 10 times more royalties, and according to many accounts this is exactly what he did. He made many artists, including the Stones, rich. The main problem though was that he controlled the money that came in and wasn't too keen on paying out, and that many artists find out that ending the contract with Klein was either very difficult or even impossible.

Mathijs

The picture I have got from the artist's point of view - especially Bill Wyman's - that he made them theoretically rich. The problem was that you didn't see those riches in your bank count. Of course, this all is relative - they were buying expensive houses and cars and all that, and they got money somehow for those, even though it was difficult. Wyman claims that it was not so difficult for Mick and Keith to get the money from Klein, but in the end, Jagger at least weren't satisfied at all of how the things go, at least judging his desparate attempts to get rid of Klein..

It would be interesting to know how much money (for example, in percentage) the Stones finally got of what they theoretically earned during Klein days. If I understand the deal they made with Klein in 1971 to get out of him, was rather bad. They just wanted to get free almost any cost. I suppose not just their 60's hit catalogue but also lots of 'theoretical' money of theirs was left behind.

- Doxa

Well, the moment they got a deal with Klein they start buying huge properties that even in those days only the real rich could buy, and started driving Bentley's, Roll's Royce's and what more. Studio time in the most expensive studio in Britain was unlimited, as was studio time in the US. Klein made them very, very rich.

In the end, I don't know what really caused the break between Klein and the Stones -Klein's financial behaviour, or the change in Britain's tax law where they suddenly where taxed 96% of everything they earned since they started.

Mathijs