The Who - 'Baba O'Riley'

WITHOUT




WITH
(very efficient, however, but the groove is gone - much more a wall of deep sound)




This is one thing I don't like with Darryl when playing Bill's part - a compressor instead of a pick



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-20 09:54 by bv.

Another exemple of hyper-exaggerated compressor sound with the bass guitar

Efficient, but always taste the same, like canned food

The Rickenbacker (looks like a Rickenbacker) sound is much altered

I don't think it's all down to the compressor. You're comparing vastly different clips. Anyway, some compression is needed on the bass, generally.

True, and one wouldn't use a compressor instead of a pick. They are two different aspects of the sound. All bass is recorded witrh some degree of compression.

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71Tele
True, and one wouldn't use a compressor instead of a pick. They are two different aspects of the sound. All bass is recorded witrh some degree of compression.

and mixed with even more :-)

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71Tele
True, and one wouldn't use a compressor instead of a pick. They are two different aspects of the sound.

right, a textbook case of apples to oranges.

To everybody all at once...
Joker, Are you saying that a compressor improves the sound of a bass or just alters it in a way that can't be undone? In certain circumstances I might agree with both but in many cases I'd have to disagree with the first part.

On the Knack video, I believe that is a Vigier [www.vigierguitars.com] I played one in France about 20 years ago and fell in love. Haven't seen one in person since. But I still have fond memories of playing that one.

Also, as stated by 71Tele, a compressor is not a substitute for a pick or vice versa.

Regarding where compression is placed in the effects path is purely up to the engineer/producer/player. Personally, unless it's needed, I try to record all of my bass parts with no compression on the track as it's recorded. Like stoneswashed77 stated, it can be put on in the mixing stage as well.

I've actually had engineers I've worked with complement me and tell me how glad they are that they don't have to use compression to control my sound as we're tracking. I credit my former teacher for that. Although I carry many emotional and psychological scars with me to this day, the knowledge and ability I gained from working with that S.O.B. were well worth the price!

In my opinion, there's a reason that live engineers have been taking a direct feed off the bass for years... that's all that's needed. I say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek because you do need good equipment and good human participation to get away with that but, with the right people involved, recording a bass dry gives you a lot more sonic options in the mixdown/production stage than if the tone is compressed on the actual track. I think it all comes down to what the producer is looking for.

99.99% of the time, my stage rig includes only my bass guitars (sorry 71Tele), a wireless unit, a tuner & two guitar cables is all I need. On one of my amps I do have a built in Limiter (which I actually prefer to compression) but no compression anywhere on stage. I leave it up to the sound guy as to what he puts in the house as long as he doesn't screw with the tone too much. In the studio, a couple of the engineer's I work with regularly have me plug straight into the board, no preamp or nothin'. Just one cable between the pickups and the recorder that way. Other studio's will have either a DI or some sort of pre-amp for me. I rarely get the opportunity to record a miked amp.

Just some thoughts from this particular bass player's point of view.

Peace,
Mr DJA

<< my stage rig includes only my bass guitars (sorry 71Tele) >>

Hey, dja "basses" is faster to type than "bass guitars"! (Just a thought).

Beatles (specifically Geoff Emerick) pioneered mixing direct and live amp sound. This became the standard way to record McCartney's "bass guitar" parts.

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71Tele
<< my stage rig includes only my bass guitars (sorry 71Tele) >>

Hey, dja "basses" is faster to type than "bass guitars"! (Just a thought).

Beatles (specifically Geoff Emerick) pioneered mixing direct and live amp sound. This became the standard way to record McCartney's "bass guitar" parts.

Thx 4 d haha '71! I'll try 2 sv ltrs nxt time!

OK enough of the "text type" I can't do it on my phone or on here! I didn't realize that it was the Beatles that started that practice. Oh to have the resources to just live in the studio and experiment! At least that's what I tell myself! I'd be willing to try anyway. Except for the fact that I'd rather play than produce.

Best to ya'
Peace,
DJA

Prescott Niles of The Knack may have used a Guild bass on My Sharona.
He was playing both the Guild and a Rickenbacker around the time of the first album.

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mr_dja
To everybody all at once...
Joker, Are you saying that a compressor improves the sound of a bass or just alters it in a way that can't be undone? In certain circumstances I might agree with both but in many cases I'd have to disagree with the first part.
,
Mr DJA

No, and no. I meant that using a compressor, or a compressor effect, alters sometimes badly the bass guitar sound - The "for good" line refers to the (bad) habits, not to anything that technically cannot be override

I did't realize some bass players did't have their own amp anymore - how does it feel playing this way ? Don't you feel lost a little when you don't have an old school cabinet to hang around and listen to your licks?

As for the pick and the compressor, I don't say you have to choose one versus the other. I was refering to Bill's sound which features a vibrant, sustained signature of each tune because of the pick, while a compressor gives to evey tune an equal strenght so they sound mish-mash

[/quote]

No, and no. I meant that using a compressor, or a compressor effect, alters sometimes badly the bass guitar sound - The "for good" line refers to the (bad) habits, not to anything that technically cannot be override

I did't realize some bass players did't have their own amp anymore - how does it feel playing this way ? Don't you feel lost a little when you don't have an old school cabinet to hang around and listen to your licks?

As for the pick and the compressor, I don't say you have to choose one versus the other. I was refering to Bill's sound which features a vibrant, sustained signature of each tune because of the pick, while a compressor gives to evey tune an equal strenght so they sound mish-mash[/quote]

Joker,

Gotcha... To clarify a bit... Live I definitely have my own amp unless it goes down on the gig and I'm forced to rely on the monitor system. It's only in the studio where I generally don't use an amp. You are 100% correct in your assumption that I would "feel lost a little when you don't have an old school cabinet to hang around and listen to your licks". I had to do a gig that way last fall and was pretty much miserable all night. Although I'm grateful that I'm able to pull of the gig in an emergency that way, I'm more than willing to bring in an amp every night so I don't have to!

Also, I love your line about the sound becoming "mish-mash". That's why I prefer a limiter rather than a compressor in most circumstances. A limiter will keep the player from getting to loud and potentially messing things up where a compressor will "squish" the sound and tone and can make it sound about as exciting as wet cardboard. Used correctly, compression is a good effect, over used and it will take the individual players soul & voice out of the part and make it a sterile as a mule or as animated as a corpse.

This is true for finger-style plucking or the use of a guitar pick. To much compression on BW's bass would have the same end result even though he's using a pick. Personally, I don't like using a pick and sometimes wish that parts I hear others play didn't use a pick. I've just come to prefer the organic sound of flesh on the strings.

Time to get back to work,
Peace,
Mr DJA

mr_dja

interesting what you write. it seems the producers that you´ve worked with want ultimate flexibility from you soundwise. can´t believe they didn´t compress you especially because you were going direct.

was this in the uk or usa. i heard in the states they record mostly everything dry and find the sounds later on in the mix. contrary in the uk. compression, eq, even effects during tracking.

but bass guitar i would say almost always gets compression during tracking.
just like vocals. other instruments may vary.

don´t you think?

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stoneswashed77
mr_dja

interesting what you write. it seems the producers that you´ve worked with want ultimate flexibility from you soundwise. can´t believe they didn´t compress you especially because you were going direct.

was this in the uk or usa. i heard in the states they record mostly everything dry and find the sounds later on in the mix. contrary in the uk. compression, eq, even effects during tracking.

but bass guitar i would say almost always gets compression during tracking.
just like vocals. other instruments may vary.

don´t you think?

The sessions where I know I was uncompressed during tracking were in the US. In and around Knoxville, TN. They were very much the exception rather than the rule. Any time it happens the engineers usually commented on how they don't get to do it that way all that often, if ever. I get the impression that you're 100% correct in your statement that a bass "almost always gets compression during tracking".

Like I said in my earlier post, I give all the credit for my ability to track at a consistent level (and not need compression) to my former teacher. He was a demanding dictator who, to this day, is a polarizing personality in the E TN musical community. While a large portion of his former students will tell you that he is without a doubt one of the biggest JackA55es they've ever had to deal with, those same students will also tell you that they wouldn't trade the knowledge he shares for anything.

Effects as well during tracking in the UK? Wow! Is that generally from the engineering side or the musician's side? I can see it if the bass player himself wants an effect on their bass but even then, you're stuck with what you get and if you don't like it later, time to retrack. I'd hate to think that a great performance would have to be redone because the effect on the track doesn't work in the mix. Then again, if I'm getting paid by the hour, it would be more money in my pocket, wouldn't it?

All the best,
Mr DJA

i meant from the engineer side mostly but also from the musicians side.

engineers use their effects (eq, comp) and let the musicians use theirs.

say a guitarist uses distorsion, reverb and delay and that gets tracked through the engineers comp and eq´s. and later more probably in the mix.

producers or engineers who want flexibility would only take a clean amp sound or direct and do their distortion, delay, reverb, eq , compression in the mix.

i am not sure what i prefer but i think in this day and age having most flexibility leads to more creative options with all that processing power.

still i would compress your bass and vocals a little for the sound. not to control it. :-)

as a bass player, how do you like daryl jones bass sound.