I am a guitar player and I noticed years ago that especially on the '69 tour, Keith is often out of tune. But what's weird about it is it kind of sounds cool most of the time, and I would go so far as to say it contributed to the distinctive sound of the band in '69. Don't know if it was the Ampeg guitar or what, but it's quite noticeable in the Gimme Shelter film.

On a similar note, I remember Jim Dickinson being interviewed about the Mussel Shoals session, saying the Stones were tuned weird, and he found a piano in the back room for "Wild Horses" that just happened to be in tune with the band for one or two octaves, hence the piano part on that song. I love "happy accidents" in the studio, and that certainly was one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-10 03:52 by 71Tele.

Good points 71Tele, especially re the '69 tour. Note from the boots that they often spent a LOT of time tuning between songs. Today, of course, that's 'taken care of' for Keith and Ronnie by a combination of improved tuning technology and switching guitars with the help of roadies.

Its also important to note the conditions they were tuning in.
It must have been near impossible to hear the darn strings and one by one go up and down them to get a decent tuning.

Even Page was miserably out of tune on most boots.

I have tried tuning without the help of today's future gadgets in front of a crowd (albeit immensely smaller) and its just hard to do...

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71Tele
I am a guitar player and I noticed years ago that especially on the '69 tour, Keith is often out of tune. But what's weird about it is it kind of sounds cool most of the time, and I would go so far as to say it contributed to the distinctive sound of the band in '69. Don't know if it was the Ampeg guitar or what, but it's quite noticeable in the Gimme Shelter film.

On a similar note, I remember Jim Dickinson being interviewed about the Mussel Shoals session, saying the Stones were tuned weird, and he found a piano in the back room for "Wild Horses" that just happened to be in tune with the band for one or two octaves, hence the piano part on that song. I love "happy accidents" in the studio, and that certainly was one.

The Dan Armstrong guitar certainly is part of the reason why they where so out of tune on many gigs from '69 70 '71. The original design had some major flaws, and one of them was the neck joint. The neck was screwed with four bolts not meant for this type of job, and screwed down at the very end of the neck, making it very wobbly. Second was the bridge, which was just a piece of wood without any means of adjusting the intonation. Basically, if you tuned the guitar and hit a chord hard it was out of tune again. The '71 models where even worse, as the necks on these where very thin, much like a SG. Keith has mentioned that he liked his original DA, but the replacement when it got stolen in July '71 was "terrible". He used this only for a couple of early '72 shows.

The new (2006) DA models actually have addressed these issues. The neck joint is much better now, with screw threads in the back of the neck and screws designed for this job, the bridge now has individual saddles and the neck is a laminate of three-pieces, like is used for classical instruments that do not have a truss rod. This makes the neck much more rigid.

Over-all the new DA models are just much better guitars then the vintage ones, with one exception -the new humbucker pickup certainly is less is good than the original one. The original sounded like a brutal PAF, while the new one is muddy and very unclear, like you have a blanket over your amp. The Rock Treble is good, much like a dark P90.

Mathijs

Mathijs,

As always, I love reading your comments and your incredible knowledge of different guitars. I think you're in tune most of the time!

Let it rock!

Thanks, once again, for your detailed information of the guitar department, Mathijs. Always a great joy to read.

But which makes me think.. Why Keith decided to use the Dan Amstrong- knowing and experiencing the fact that the guitar goes out of tune so easily - so much live during those 1969-1971 years? Was it the special sound? Or the look? From a musician's point of view, it is strange that these factors could go beyond the possibility of being in tune. And the Stones peculiarly tried very hard to be professional - lead by Taylor's example - in those years. Any ideas?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-10 12:11 by Doxa.

Thanks Mathijs, appreciate your knowledge.Do the new Armstrongs have the removable pickup function?-I think the early models had slide out pickups, but I could be wrong.Ive seen photos of Keith on the ABB tour with a new model, would you lnow what his opinion of it was? thanks.

Very interesting stuff Mathijs

He was also very out of tune at Hyde Park although that could have been the weather i suppose.Is that the only time he played the Flying V?

I find in the 69 and 70 tour they (Mick and Keith) were more often out of time rather than out of tune, expec. in I'm free, Midnight rambler after the recital, Little queenie, and most of the Street fighting men.

For my work I use a program for adjusting purpose, I discovered that you also can tune your guitar with it.



Do you guy's and girls use this kind of tools for tuning your guitar?

__________________________




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-10 13:39 by NICOS.

If you're an i-phone user you can get a Peterson Strobe Tuner app for about $12 these days.
I have a bunch of traditional tuners though. they're fine.

I wish Ampeg would come out w an upgrade humbucker. The single coil is great though. The little wooden bridge did help to the sound of the old da's but not worth the hassels it brought.

Go Dawgs!

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Doxa
Thanks, once again, for your detailed information of the guitar department, Mathijs. Always a great joy to read.

But which makes me think.. Why Keith decided to use the Dan Amstrong- knowing and experiencing the fact that the guitar goes out of tune so easily - so much live during those 1969-1971 years? Was it the special sound? Or the look? From a musician's point of view, it is strange that these factors could go beyond the possibility of being in tune. And the Stones peculiarly tried very hard to be professional - lead by Taylor's example - in those years. Any ideas?

- Doxa

great questions--why use the Dan Armstrong at all then, and why keep using it throughout the tour? It's not like he didn't have plenty of other options.

The breaks between songs are really long in the classic period... and imo jagger most of the time really doesn't seem to do much to smooth things out. "... slowly rocking on..." It must have just been a different, very sleepy atmosphere most of the time.

The breaks between songs are really long in the classic period... and imo jagger most of the time really doesn't seem to do much to smooth things out. "... slowly rocking on..." It must have just been a different, very sleepy atmosphere most of the time.[/quote]

Unlike the '72 shows the 11/8/69 show I saw WAS a relaxed affair. So was the Nicaraguan Benefit in '73. It started with a rush, ended with a rush, but the middle portion was blues and mid tempo songs. I remember enjoying the intro to UMT as it felt like the tempo of the show was picking up. I had no idea what songs they were going play. I ran a songlist through my head of all the songs they DID NOT play. But I admired it then and admire it now. It felt like we, the audience, was looking in on the band. That is a completely different feeling than the band playing to us. As I left the Forum I thought the show was not as exciting as I thought it would be. I thought it was rather restrained. But I had a sense that I had seen something historic. And I was right. It is still my favorite tour. A distinct moment in time in the life of the band.

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still ill
Very interesting stuff Mathijs

He was also very out of tune at Hyde Park although that could have been the weather i suppose.Is that the only time he played the Flying V?

It was very hot and humid that day, thus the tuning difficulties. Think I remember that beeing mentioned in an interview too.

By the way, I use this:



[www.reverbnation.com]

Thanks Mathjis, for your info on the Dan Armstrongs...It certainly had a unique very aggressive tone - I can see why Keith liked it. As a guitar player, I know how hard it is to keep a guitar in tune with a bridge that has no individual adjustments for intonation. I have a '57 Les Paul Jr. like this, and I am thinking of putting the compensated bridge/tailpiece on it to improve intonation. Everything else about the guitar is perfect, but that straight tailpiece was definitely a design flaw on the original LP Jr.

I think the slightly out-of-time/out-of-tune sound from '69-'70 is one of my favorite Stones periods. By 1972 it was already gone. It also begs the question: How much of the guitar overdubbing on Ya-Yas was because of tuning issues?

From Booth, The True Adventures..., p. 95.


"Then Wyman had an idea - for an invention, an instrument that could be attached to a guitar and would light up when a string was in tune. Jagger and Keith insisted it was impossible...Keith was down on the whole idea. 'Use your ears,' he said...'Actually I was thinkin' of it for you, man' Bill said to Keith. 'I don't have any trouble stayin' in tune, you're the one.'"

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parislocksmith
From Booth, The True Adventures..., p. 95.


"Then Wyman had an idea - for an invention, an instrument that could be attached to a guitar and would light up when a string was in tune. Jagger and Keith insisted it was impossible...Keith was down on the whole idea. 'Use your ears,' he said...'Actually I was thinkin' of it for you, man' Bill said to Keith. 'I don't have any trouble stayin' in tune, you're the one.'"

And now, there exists basically that same device!

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71Tele
I am a guitar player and I noticed years ago that especially on the '69 tour, Keith is often out of tune. But what's weird about it is it kind of sounds cool most of the time, and I would go so far as to say it contributed to the distinctive sound of the band in '69. Don't know if it was the Ampeg guitar or what, but it's quite noticeable in the Gimme Shelter film.

On a similar note, I remember Jim Dickinson being interviewed about the Mussel Shoals session, saying the Stones were tuned weird, and he found a piano in the back room for "Wild Horses" that just happened to be in tune with the band for one or two octaves, hence the piano part on that song. I love "happy accidents" in the studio, and that certainly was one.

Surely you can't mean Keith even picked this trait up from Chuck Berry TOO? TEE HEE!

CBII

Keith frequently sings out of tune. I don't know if he does it deliberately or not. Maybe at this point he doesn't care.

Before They Make Me Run . . his vocal is hard to listen to.

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mitchflorida
Keith frequently sings out of tune. I don't know if he does it deliberately or not. Maybe at this point he doesn't care.

Before They Make Me Run . . his vocal is hard to listen to.

True, but singing should be a different thread entirely...his singing has certainly deteriorated from what it was. What version of BTMMR are you referring to? The singing on the studio cut is great. They rarely do it live.

Any of those 69 outdoor shows they were out of tune...Listen to the Miami Pop Festival show and it is almost painfulhow out of tune they are......

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oldschool
Any of those 69 outdoor shows they were out of tune...Listen to the Miami Pop Festival show and it is almost painfulhow out of tune they are......

Hyde Park is the worst I have heard. Is Miami Pop as bad?

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71Tele

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oldschool
Any of those 69 outdoor shows they were out of tune...Listen to the Miami Pop Festival show and it is almost painfulhow out of tune they are......

Hyde Park is the worst I have heard. Is Miami Pop as bad?

Very bad as they went open late at night and it was cold and damp..I think it is worse than Hyde Park........Also the batteries in the recorder start to do and the tape starts to warble about half way throught the show.....Too bad as it is a VG - Ex recording

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skipstone

i use this!

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audun-eg

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still ill
Very interesting stuff Mathijs

He was also very out of tune at Hyde Park although that could have been the weather i suppose.Is that the only time he played the Flying V?

It was very hot and humid that day, thus the tuning difficulties. Think I remember that beeing mentioned in an interview too.

By the way, I use this:

and this one too....;-)

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skipstone

Practically everyone in Nashville uses this one. It's a warhorse (in a GOOD way), and all those Boss pedals are great about taking punishment. Plus, you can plug in AC power into one spot and daisy-chain from the adjacent spot to all your other pedals. A wonderful tool.

I smashed the first one I had. It pissed me off ha ha.

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71Tele
I have a '57 Les Paul Jr. like this, and I am thinking of putting the compensated bridge/tailpiece on it to improve intonation. Everything else about the guitar is perfect, but that straight tailpiece was definitely a design flaw on the original LP Jr.

Hey 71Tele, really dig your posts. Keep 'em coming! Regarding your Les Paul Jr., is the compensated bridge solution you are contemplating a drop in or will it require modification to the guitar? From my own perspective, hopefully the later and not the former. Still, it is your guitar! By the way, do you post on the Les Paul Forum? A few IORRians can be found there....