Just came from the "When Keith could play Sympathy" thread; I was going to post abpout this there, but decided this needed it's own thread. I been thinking about this anyway.
All this talk about the " ancient weaving" with Ronnie is hollow to me. On the 78 SG tour it worked great. But there other factors invloved; the song choices, the band line -up (only Mac and Stu). And Ron was at the height of his powers within the Stones. Oh, and Keith was red hot.
What is called 'weaving' these days is either Keith playing very loud (and not that well), and Ronnie inaudible.
Then you got the both of them twanging . And it really does not come off as one guitar with 4 hands. It sounds just like two dudes clanking all over each other. Third choice is Ronnie trying to take a solo, but goes off into fuzzy meanderings, while Keith who is supposed to hold down the rhythm, invariably turns up louder than the lead guitar.

I have to say that some of the most fantastic two guitar arrangments I have ever heard are Brian and Keith doing "I Can't Be Satisfied", "Confessin the Blues", "Talkin Bout You", Little Red Rooster",.
But the best weave is with the one guy who never gets any credit in this department at all: Mick Taylor. Keith and Taylor in 69 (!) proved the ultimate, tight 4 handed guitar concord does exist. Taylor strumming with natural sound on the SG through those Ampegs, and Keith with a bit of crunch on the Armstrong, also through the Ampeg. Couple that with Charlie and Wyman - and Ya-Ya's is born.
The chuggalug of "Midnight Rambler" right before they break down to the slow part, the drive under "Carol", "Sympathy for the Devil".
And in 72/73 too. I think that the Berry type tunes worked better with Taylor than with Ronnie.

Good post!

Disagree. Sweet Little Sixteen from 78 is as good as a Berry tune will ever get.

JumpingKentFlash

In an interview, Ron Wood said this concerns for instance the song Beast of Burden.

"That's another one that just came very naturally in the studio. And I slipped into my part and Keith had his going. It may have appeared as though it was planned. We can pick it up today and it will just naturally slip into the groove again with the guitars weaving in a special way. It's quite amazing really. Ever since Keith and I first started to trade licks, it was a very natural thing that, for some unknown reason, if he's playing up high, I'm down low and the other way around. We cross over very naturally. We call it an ancient form of weaving-- which we still are impressed by it to this day. Unexplainable, wonderful things happen with the guitar weaving. There's no plan."



<<<The surest way to discover a musical ignoramus—besides some idiotic impression of Bob Dylan’s singing—is when someone dismisses Wood as a pale imitation of Keith Richards. Those are rock ’n’ roll fighting words. For the past three decades, Wood and Richards have honed what they call the ancient art of weaving. Lead and rhythm parts spiral in and out of each other, as the two guitarists swerve and slide through the songs—delicately connected, creating and releasing tension, gracefully sliding through the melody and dancing around the rhythm.

It doesn’t happen because they are so similar—it happens because they are so different, and they can meet on the shared ground of the music they love. Richards is all Chuck Berry stomp and Muddy Waters sparseness. When the open-G chords chime from his guitar, it is clear that Richards is going back to Robert Johnson, going deep into the blues and early rock ’n’ roll that he has championed his whole life. Ronnie comes in, swinging, from the other end of American music—with sweet, slippery Memphis soul doublestops that recall Steve Cropper, Cornell Dupree, and Bobby Womack. Together, they meet at their shared love of Studio One Jamaican rhythm and crying, honky tonk ballads. Then they steep it all in some of the most incredible rock ’n’ roll songs ever written. And while the Stones may never have realized, the way Rod Stewart seemed to, just what a treasure they have found with Wood, they wouldn’t be the Stones without him.>>>

[www.gibson.com]



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

Flip the Switch from the BtB Tour is a great example of their positive weaving.

the art weaving itself is an ancient myth

...another word for on-the-spot improvisation?

i.e. make it up as you're going along.

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Barn Owl
...another word for on-the-spot improvisation?

i.e. make it up as you're going along.

anytime two or more musicians play together they "weave." it's not that it doesn't happen - it's that it ALWAYS happens....

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StonesTod

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Barn Owl
...another word for on-the-spot improvisation?

i.e. make it up as you're going along.

anytime two or more musicians play together they "weave." it's not that it doesn't happen - it's that it ALWAYS happens....

...that makes perfect sense to me!

I think it worked perfectly well live (I regard that more a live than a studio problem) until Ronnie and/or Keith became unreliable this or that evening. Therefore, songs can be brillant from one moment to horrible the next moment when both suddenly stop weaving, so to say. Then it's THE GUITAR BAND OF ALL without guitars suddenly...

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StonesTod


anytime two or more musicians play together they "weave." it's not that it doesn't happen - it's that it ALWAYS happens....

if that was only true^^
there are plenty annoying pickers out there and it ain't easy to find a matching guitarist.

Keith & Ron sure have it.

the point is that all musicians play off of one another - call it weaving or anything you like - the stones don't do anything that all others don't

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Palace Revolution 2000
Just came from the "When Keith could play Sympathy" thread; I was going to post abpout this there, but decided this needed it's own thread. I been thinking about this anyway.
All this talk about the " ancient weaving" with Ronnie is hollow to me. On the 78 SG tour it worked great. But there other factors invloved; the song choices, the band line -up (only Mac and Stu). And Ron was at the height of his powers within the Stones. Oh, and Keith was red hot.
What is called 'weaving' these days is either Keith playing very loud (and not that well), and Ronnie inaudible.
Then you got the both of them twanging . And it really does not come off as one guitar with 4 hands. It sounds just like two dudes clanking all over each other. Third choice is Ronnie trying to take a solo, but goes off into fuzzy meanderings, while Keith who is supposed to hold down the rhythm, invariably turns up louder than the lead guitar.

I have to say that some of the most fantastic two guitar arrangments I have ever heard are Brian and Keith doing "I Can't Be Satisfied", "Confessin the Blues", "Talkin Bout You", Little Red Rooster",.
But the best weave is with the one guy who never gets any credit in this department at all: Mick Taylor. Keith and Taylor in 69 (!) proved the ultimate, tight 4 handed guitar concord does exist. Taylor strumming with natural sound on the SG through those Ampegs, and Keith with a bit of crunch on the Armstrong, also through the Ampeg. Couple that with Charlie and Wyman - and Ya-Ya's is born.
The chuggalug of "Midnight Rambler" right before they break down to the slow part, the drive under "Carol", "Sympathy for the Devil".
And in 72/73 too. I think that the Berry type tunes worked better with Taylor than with Ronnie.

Good points there, excellent in some cases, (Keith's LOUD noodling around when Ronnie's supposed to be taking the lead solo). But I don't think it's that Ronnie's (admittedly overused) talk about 'ancient art of weaving' is total fallacy - he is just clinging onto something that they simply don't do anymore. The 78 tour was an amazing example of that art, as was the 81 tour (even if I don't care for the guitar sound from that period). But there was a time when they really could do it. We still get flashes of it post-90's (Beat of Burden on the VL tour, they still do it nicely on Midnight Rambler too I believe). But yeah, largely it is now gone.

I'll tell you what though, if there's a band that I believe still does it beautifully, it is Pearl Jam. Two great guitarists, and I honestly cannot tell sometimes who is playing what. I love the way those 2 guys lock into each other.

And I agree the Chuck B tunes were mostly much better w/Taylor than Ronnie. But, that said, I thought MT and KR had a more traditional rhythm/lead sound, and that idea of weaving does not work as well for those kinds of songs (thought they locked in beautifully on 'Sympathy' on Ya-ya's).

One last thing that I think kinds of disrupts it is the tone and sound of the guitars they use. Keith's is usually fatter, and a little grittier, while Ronnie favors this annoyingly 'tinny' sound. Listen to any modern-era version of "Gimme Shelter' - there could be some nice weaving going on there, but Keith's usually playing a heavier sounding Gibson, while Ronnie's on a Stratocaster that sounds as if he just plugged it into some little 6-inch practice amp. and though they may be some distinct weaving going on there, it's hard to tell as the sounds of their respective guitars just clash too much (though that sound does work better on tunes like "Before They Make Me Run" and "Wanna Hold You".

Anyway, a long-winded response but there is my 2 cents.

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StonesTod

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Barn Owl
...another word for on-the-spot improvisation?

i.e. make it up as you're going along.

anytime two or more musicians play together they "weave." it's not that it doesn't happen - it's that it ALWAYS happens....

Probably Keith came to the conclusion that they didn´t play together (anymore ).

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Palace Revolution 2000
I have to say that some of the most fantastic two guitar arrangments I have ever heard are Brian and Keith doing "I Can't Be Satisfied", "Confessin the Blues", "Talkin Bout You", Little Red Rooster",.

Have you tried Magic Sam and Might Joe Young?

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Palace Revolution 2000
But the best weave is with the one guy who never gets any credit in this department at all: Mick Taylor. Keith and Taylor in 69 (!) proved the ultimate, tight 4 handed guitar concord does exist. Taylor strumming with natural sound on the SG through those Ampegs, and Keith with a bit of crunch on the Armstrong, also through the Ampeg. Couple that with Charlie and Wyman - and Ya-Ya's is born.
The chuggalug of "Midnight Rambler" right before they break down to the slow part, the drive under "Carol", "Sympathy for the Devil".
And in 72/73 too. I think that the Berry type tunes worked better with Taylor than with Ronnie.

For me, the Bye Bye Johnny of '72 was their Chuck Berry peak. The MR jams from '69 through '73 are probably the best example of their onstage interaction. But from '69 (I'm Free) through '73 (Rip This Joint), there was wonderful interplay between them that did not fall into the lead vs. rhythm structure that is typically assumed to apply to all of their joint work.

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StonesTod
anytime two or more musicians play together they "weave." it's not that it doesn't happen - it's that it ALWAYS happens....

I disagree. Bob Weir and Jerry Garcia are a great guitar duo, but all Weir does is strictly play rhythm while Garcia plays leads. Weaving definitely meant something, although I have to agree that these days its just another way of saying 'very messy playing.'

In the studio, Beast of Burden is obviously the archetype of the weave, but its all over Some Girls and Emotional Rescue...Whip Comes Down, Respectable, Dance Pt. 1, Down in the Hole. Unlike most set-ups, Ronnie and Keith really could flow in and out of rhythm and leads in an incredibly unique way. Here are two examples that support this: first, possibly my favorite video on Youtube, which I've shared here before, Gimme Shelter from Paradiso. IMHO its their finest version, and I would add that this tune (when played at their top of the game) suits Ronnie and Keith better than it does Taylor. While I usually am blown away by Taylor's 72-73 era leads, sometimes I just find them to be too intrusive and not what "belongs" in a Stones tune; I think that's the case for GS. Take a look, and note, by the way, how Ronnie and Keith "trade" the rhythm for the solo at the 2:14-2:15 mark. Some of you will probably disagree, but I think its awesome...




And a classic Berry number from '78:




Just a few examples. Also, I have to agree that some Taylor weaving is overlooked, like MR on ya-ya's (not to mention Brussels!!) but the fact is Taylor was for the most part a 'lead' guitarist in the classic sense. And finally, for my money, the best weave in the early Stones was the incredible Down the Road Apiece guitar work from Keith and Brian. Anyways, those are just my thoughts...

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JMoisica

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StonesTod
anytime two or more musicians play together they "weave." it's not that it doesn't happen - it's that it ALWAYS happens....

I disagree. Bob Weir and Jerry Garcia are a great guitar duo, but all Weir does is strictly play rhythm while Garcia plays leads..

and they played off of each other fabulously. the wove. it has nothing to do with who is playing lead.

As to the title of this thread, I think the acute answer is it's what Ronnie is doing right now.

>> it has nothing to do with who is playing lead <<

smile: only according to your definition, which - dig it! - isn't what other people mean by it.

Personally, I think that over-analysing how music, art etc 'works' is a risky business. As Picasso said: "It took me a lifetime, to learn to paint like a child". That rings SO true to me, as he KNEW how to paint & draw 'correctly'.
So, we're talking Rock'n Roll here & I've never taken all this talk of 'weaving' very seriously. I've always just taken it as meaning there's no specific lead & rhythm roles & that IS still evident, on relatively recent Stones performances.
A good example is: For some reason, all of the 1999 soundboard boots are missing Keith. It makes for rather strange listening, but also highlights various guitar-parts that I always thought were Keith. I mean- maybe they are on some nights & not others (?)
Signing-off in cryptic fashion: "If you pick away a few stitches from anything woven- the whole thing can come undone" :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-09-21 13:56 by MrsHop.

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MrsHop
Personally, I think that over-analysing how music, art etc 'works' is a risky business. As Picasso said: "It took me a lifetime, to learn to paint like a child". That rings SO true to me, as he KNEW how to paint & draw 'correctly'.
So, we're talking Rock'n Roll here & I've never taken all this talk of 'weaving' very seriously. I've always just taken it as meaning there's no specific lead & rhythm roles & that IS still evident, on relatively recent Stones performances.
A good example is: For some reason, all of the 1999 soundboard boots are missing Keith. It makes for rather strange listening, but also highlights various guitar-parts that I always thought were Keith. I mean- maybe they are on some nights & not others (?)

Over-analysing pretty ANYTHANG is a risky business, I try and do as little of it as possible myself.

I've no idea whose ass Ronnie pulled that 95 performance of GS out of. Actually audible through the whole song and even good. It's a remarkable aberration.

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with sssoul
>> it has nothing to do with who is playing lead <<

smile: only according to your definition, which - dig it! - isn't what other people mean by it.

which people?