Did Keith use for the US Tour 81 and for the european tour 82 the Mark IIB or the Mark IIC?

The IIC and IIC+ were released in '83. The Stones used the IIB Coliseum amps (180 watts) on the 81/82 tour.

Mathijs

I wish he used Ampeg, to me it's the best guitarsound they ever had:Get your yy out!

Mathijs Wrote:
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> The IIC and IIC+ were released in '83. The Stones
> used the IIB Coliseum amps (180 watts) on the
> 81/82 tour.
>
> Mathijs


Is the Mark IIC more like the Mark IIB or more like the Mark III from the sound

thomas guitar Wrote:
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> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The IIC and IIC+ were released in '83. The
> Stones
> > used the IIB Coliseum amps (180 watts) on the
> > 81/82 tour.
> >
> > Mathijs
>
>
> Is the Mark IIC more like the Mark IIB or more
> like the Mark III from the sound

The Mark III is a totally different amp than the Mark I and IIB. A Mark III uses a mix of EL34 and 6L6 valves, and the gainb stages are wired totally different. The Mark III really is much more of a Marshall style amp than the hot rodded Fender style that are the Mark I and II amps. The Mark III amp is the beginning of the high-gain Boogie sound, used in hard rock and heavy metal.

The IIC basically is a IIB but with a mod to the reverb and to the effect line, which were noisy on the IIB. The rythm channel of the IIC is a bit more tight and sweet than on the IIB, which is a bit more punchy and bold. The lead channel of the IIC is a bit more high gain and grainy than the IIB. I personally prefer the IIB over the IIC(+), I think it's the best ever Boogie made, and maybe even the best ever amp made. A Telecaster through a crancked IIB is the best sound imaginable. Think Keith's sound on Around and Around from Love You Live, Some Girls and ER.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
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> thomas guitar Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Mathijs Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The IIC and IIC+ were released in '83. The
> > Stones
> > > used the IIB Coliseum amps (180 watts) on the
> > > 81/82 tour.
> > >
> > > Mathijs
> >
> >
> > Is the Mark IIC more like the Mark IIB or more
> > like the Mark III from the sound
>
> The Mark III is a totally different amp than the
> Mark I and IIB. A Mark III uses a mix of EL34 and
> 6L6 valves, and the gainb stages are wired totally
> different. The Mark III really is much more of a
> Marshall style amp than the hot rodded Fender
> style that are the Mark I and II amps. The Mark
> III amp is the beginning of the high-gain Boogie
> sound, used in hard rock and heavy metal.
>
> The IIC basically is a IIB but with a mod to the
> reverb and to the effect line, which were noisy on
> the IIB. The rythm channel of the IIC is a bit
> more tight and sweet than on the IIB, which is a
> bit more punchy and bold. The lead channel of the
> IIC is a bit more high gain and grainy than the
> IIB. I personally prefer the IIB over the IIC(+),
> I think it's the best ever Boogie made, and maybe
> even the best ever amp made. A Telecaster through
> a crancked IIB is the best sound imaginable. Think
> Keith's sound on Around and Around from Love You
> Live, Some Girls and ER.
>
> Mathijs

Thanks Mathijs for the answer.
For me it is also the amp mesa boogie IIB, hes used for the 81/82 tour and the ampeg he used between the 69 and 76 tour the best he ever used live.

Thomas

Tubes do not influence the sound that much;I've (mesa boogie M-3)had 6L6 or the EL34 both turned on or turned off at the same time:No different sound.
What matters is the speaker:I still use EV 4x12',and to my opinion (a matter of taste )
they sound much better than for example celestion speakers,as they give almost equal db at every
frequency(60-6000Hz)
But running my old Ampeg vt22 at 10(don't try this at home!)
is absolute superiour if you want a genuine RStones guitarsound..

MTFan Wrote:
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> Tubes do not influence the sound that much;I've
> (mesa boogie M-3)had 6L6 or the EL34 both turned
> on or turned off at the same time:No different
> sound.

I must say I totally disagree. The difference in sound between EL34 and 6L6 valves is day and night, even so that 6L6 valves can be described as "American sound" and EL34 as "British". The tonal characteristics are completely different, especially when overdriven. 6L6 are typically Fender -sparkling top, big bottom end and lots of twang. EL34 don't sparkle, have lesser bass, but the midrange is much more pronounced. 6L6 are great for country, blues and Stones-rock, while EL34 are best for British style Marshall crunch, i.e. hard rock, grunch and metal.

The Mark III series with the EL34 will never get you anywhere close to the Stones sound -you need 6L6 or 7027 (a 6L6-GC tube) tubes.

Mathijs

Well I don't hear the difference.

I mean with stones sound let's say 69-74.
Ive seen the Rs playing on the M3 severl times though.
You also disagree on the speakers?
They make 80% the sound,and maybe even more the guitar..

Mathijs Wrote:
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> Think Keith's sound on Around and Around from Love You
> Live, Some Girls and ER.
>

so he played this massive amp in the studio, too?

I don't know that.
By the way K.Richards guitarsound is not my point of reference,it's also in the fingers...

MTFan Wrote:
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> Well I don't hear the difference.
>
> I mean with stones sound let's say 69-74.
> Ive seen the Rs playing on the M3 severl times
> though.

I have never seen any picture of any of the Stones with a Mark III. And, simply put, the sound of overdriven EL34's just isn't the 'Stones sound' as we know it. Of course, they used Vox amps until early '70, but the real, famous Stones sound simply is 6L6 tubes: Ampeg, Boogie Mark I and IIB, and Fender amp in all forms and shapes.

> You also disagree on the speakers?
> They make 80% the sound,and maybe even more the
> guitar..

Speakers are important, but they do not make 80% of the sound. Speakers are icing on the cake. The choice of speakers is like tires for a car. Winter tires make a car drive better in the winter, but they won't change how fast it drives, or how fast it excellerates. An EV speaker in Boogie emphesises the treble response and makes the amp sound a bit more aggressive. Using ceramic Celestion speakers makes the same boogie a bit more grainy and warmer, while alnico Celestions will make the amp sound more British, more bluesy.

In my Boogie Mark IIB I changed the Ev for an Eminence Red/White/Blue -it makes the amp less two-dimensional and a bit more easy on the ears. It's a bit less harsh.

Mathijs

cc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Think Keith's sound on Around and Around from
> Love You
> > Live, Some Girls and ER.
> >
>
> so he played this massive amp in the studio, too?

It's not that massive. Boogie Mark amp use pre-amp overdrive, so you don't have to drive the amp hard to get an overdriven sound. Some Girls, Emotional Rescue, half of Tattoo You, Undercover and Dirty work are all typical Boogie Mark I. Also listen to outtakes like Let's Go Steady and Fiji Jim for that true Boogie sound. Keith's gig with Jerry Lee Lewis in '85 and Hail Hail Rock and Roll from '86 are also all Boogie Mark I.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
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> In my Boogie Mark IIB I changed the Ev for an
> Eminence Red/White/Blue -it makes the amp less
> two-dimensional and a bit more easy on the ears.
> It's a bit less harsh.
>
> Mathijs

Would those Eminence speakers be a good match for the Vox Supreme?

"sound" appears to be very relative thus..

With one speaker you can forget it anyway, 4 speaker cabinet attached to a m-3 does the trick..

mathijs which do you prefer keith using the mesa boogie, or keith using his fender tweed twins, also mathijs i know you have been asked a thousand times but do youknow what speakers keith has in the tweed twins .i dougbt they are the original jensen speakers from leo fender, also mathijs can you offer me your opinion on ronnie fender vibro king amps . i was thinking of buying this amp but i was turned off that it had a solid state rectifer instead of a tube rectifer.

The Greek, maybe this thread will help with some of your questions,
if you go through it all: [www.iorr.org]

MTFan Wrote:
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> With one speaker you can forget it anyway, 4
> speaker cabinet attached to a m-3 does the trick..

I personally hate the sound of 4*12 cabs. Indirect, bass heavy -and everything you play sounds like hard rock.

My prefered set-up is one 12" through open backed combo connected to 2*12" closed back cab with American speakers (Jensen, Lansing, EV etc).

Mathijs

MTFan Wrote:
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> "sound" appears to be very relative thus..

Do you hear the difference between a Marshall JTM 45 and a Fender Bassman? They're basically the same amp, only the tubes differ...

Mathijs

The Greek Wrote:
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> mathijs which do you prefer keith using the mesa
> boogie, or keith using his fender tweed twins,

I prefer the Boogie -much more agressive.

> also mathijs i know you have been asked a thousand
> times but do youknow what speakers keith has in
> the tweed twins .i dougbt they are the original
> jensen speakers from leo fender,

two 80 watt Jensen 12H speakers.

also mathijs can
> you offer me your opinion on ronnie fender vibro
> king amps . i was thinking of buying this amp but
> i was turned off that it had a solid state
> rectifer instead of a tube rectifer.

Solid state rectifiers offer a more robust, solid sound -it's the main difference between a Boogie Mark 1/II and a Fender Tweed. With a valve rectifier you have a looser sound, with more 'sag'. What you prefer depends on your style: Keith's open G rythm style fits a tube rectifier, while Wood's stacatto riffs can prefer a solid state rectifier.

I personally prefer a solid state rectifier -it's more tight.

Mathijs

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > In my Boogie Mark IIB I changed the Ev for an
> > Eminence Red/White/Blue -it makes the amp less
> > two-dimensional and a bit more easy on the
> ears.
> > It's a bit less harsh.
> >
> > Mathijs
>
> Would those Eminence speakers be a good match for
> the Vox Supreme?

No, not at all. The Eminence are American sounding speakers, while you want brutal British speakers. You might like the new HiWatt speakers if you are searching replacements.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
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> No, not at all. The Eminence are American sounding
> speakers, while you want brutal British speakers.
> You might like the new HiWatt speakers if you are
> searching replacements.
>
> Mathijs


Thanks for the advice! :-)

I believe in style&feeling also;if you play a jazzriff with a heavy metal sound,do you "feel" this like jazz or heavy metal?
If you play a metal lick with a blues sound,....

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I personally hate the sound of 4*12 cabs.
> Indirect, bass heavy -and everything you play
> sounds like hard rock.
>
> My prefered set-up is one 12" through open backed
> combo connected to 2*12" closed back cab with
> American speakers (Jensen, Lansing, EV etc).

Would it be fair to say then you don't like Ampeg V-4s?
I have one, all orig, and it doesn't sound like "hard rock" to me.
It got a pretty accurate Stones/Faces sound.
I used to slave my Mesa through it and got an unbelievable sound.
BTW, I assume your setup is a Mesa through a 2-12 cab.
What type of cab do you prefer to get that, say , '78 tour sound?
OR just a good all-around tone. A Self-made cab with favorite speakers?
What was the 2x12 Fender cab? I can't remember.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Greek Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> > also mathijs i know you have been asked a
> thousand
> > times but do youknow what speakers keith has in
> > the tweed twins .i dougbt they are the original
> > jensen speakers from leo fender,
>
> two 80 watt Jensen 12H speakers.

But you did come to the conclusion they were Celestions in the other thread, no?
[www.iorr.org]

Yep,
They're still the heavy magnet Celestions, probably of 1980s vintage. That's been evidenced by the brilliant recent pictures that folks have posted.
I remember the late Ceaser Diaz mentioning them a number of years ago in some interviews. They've been in there for some time.
Mind you, we don't don't know whether these drive units have ever been reconed or "breathed on" by Ted Webber or his like.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-12 15:39 by Spud.

open-g Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Greek Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > > also mathijs i know you have been asked a
> > thousand
> > > times but do youknow what speakers keith has
> in
> > > the tweed twins .i dougbt they are the
> original
> > > jensen speakers from leo fender,
> >
> > two 80 watt Jensen 12H speakers.
>
> But you did come to the conclusion they were
> Celestions in the other thread, no?
> [www.iorr.org]

Sorry, typo: I of course meant Celestion 12H-80's.

Mathijs

tomk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I personally hate the sound of 4*12 cabs.
> > Indirect, bass heavy -and everything you play
> > sounds like hard rock.
> >
> > My prefered set-up is one 12" through open
> backed
> > combo connected to 2*12" closed back cab with
> > American speakers (Jensen, Lansing, EV etc).
>
> Would it be fair to say then you don't like Ampeg
> V-4s?
> I have one, all orig, and it doesn't sound like
> "hard rock" to me.
> It got a pretty accurate Stones/Faces sound.
> I used to slave my Mesa through it and got an
> unbelievable sound.

Oh no, I love V4's! Those are great amps, truly one of the best amps ever, albeit too loud for me. I do prefer the 2*12" combo version or a top over 2*12 or 4*10 over 4*12 -I just don't like those big, unresponsive cabs. Of course, that's my personal taste.

> BTW, I assume your setup is a Mesa through a 2-12
> cab.
> What type of cab do you prefer to get that, say ,
> '78 tour sound?
> OR just a good all-around tone. A Self-made cab
> with favorite speakers?
> What was the 2x12 Fender cab? I can't remember.

My favorite set-up changes every day, but for the last couple of shows and a demo recording I used my Boogie Mk IIB slaved through a tweed Fender Deluxe with an alnico speaker. We placed the mike on front of the tweed. I also liked my Boogie over a Koch 2*12 closed back cab with Jensen V90's -that sounded really aggressive. I had a V-4 that sounded really great as well, and my Tweed has the best clean tone ever. I like Vox AC-30's for clean, but overdriven it is not my taste. I once had a Fuchs Overdrive 50 wich sounded really good, but in the end it was too gainy.

Mathijs