Hey,


Just a question here. I've heard many stories about The Verve not earning money from this song, because of the Stones melody in it.

From which Stones song is the melody taken and does anybody know the full story behind it?

The Loog Oldham orchestra version of The Last Time.

The Verve used a sample of Heart Of Stone, performed by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra (LP released in 1966, CD available).

The CD is : The Rolling Stones Songbook
You can see it here : [www.doctorstones.net]

[doctorstonesblog.blogspot.com]

how that cheeky scamp, Dickie Ashcroft, thought he'd ever get away with it,
is beyond me.
The 2 tunes are almost identical.

I think the deal was something along the lines of The Verve got permission to use a small sample of "The Last Time" but their use of it (i.e. basically just putting a lead vocal and a little guitar on a loop of the ALO Orchestra track) far exceeded the parameters of the original agreement. And then Klein got involved and the next thing you know, Mick & Keith are being nominated for a Grammy.

Deathtrap 1997



ROCKMAN

It is quite annoying as I've read bad press about the 'greedy' stones keeping Ashcroft from earning anything on the record when its not actually anything to do with them?

As you can see from Rockman's post, what angered Klein/The Stones/ALO was that the Verve were taking full credit for that 'skipping string motif', which was actually copped right out ALO's The Last Time.

Super interesting, musical topic!

During thie movie about Jagger released some three or four years ago (can't remeber the title), you see Mick coming at Elton John's party. And there is this violin welcome band, they play Bitter sweet symphony on a classical mood. And Mick smiles. Guess he did not kwow what you said.

The Joker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Super interesting, musical topic!
>
> During thie movie about Jagger released some three
> or four years ago (can't remeber the title)

'Being Mick'

When you hear ALO Orchestra's version of The Last Time you just wonder how the hell the guys from The Verve thought they were going to get away with it It's just a copy!!!

I think Mick says something like 'That's a good one' refereing to the song being played at Elton's party.

After viewing Richard Ashcroft perform Bittersweet Symphony on a VH2 special with just guitars, bass, drums and a saxaphone, I realised that there is so much more hidden within that track than some loop they'd sampled.

"Embedded in the tune, down where you can hardly hear it" - really lmao!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-10 17:45 by retired_dog.

It is a shame because doing this has turned many young fans off the stones and contributed to the general impression people have of the stones as being money grabbing out of touch old men. The thing is, that the media often says it is the stones when in fact it is Klein. What can a poor boy do?

also, do you remember a similar thing where Carter USM had a song where they sang "good-by Ruby Tuesday, F*ck off home you silly cow"? I think "the stones" also insisted on all the money from that one even though it was different tune and only 3 words. Didn't like Carter much though so it served them right, although Jim-Bo did punch Philip Schofield at the Brit awards.

a friend told me a while back that @ the end of the movie " Cruel Intentions " during the end credits it lists Bittersweet Symphony by " Jagger Richards "

chippy Wrote:
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> a friend told me a while back that @ the end of
> the movie " Cruel Intentions " during the end
> credits it lists Bittersweet Symphony by " Jagger
> Richards "

A friend told me that on the Stripped CD it lists the author of Love In Vain as Jagger/Richards, as opposed to Robert Johnson who actually wrote it.

Not the first time.

That's the way it is listed in their Album as well Jagger\Richards. Noting also that all lyrics of the album are by Ashcroft.

Who the f*ck is Mick Jagger?

ya , i have the Japanese version of Stripped & under Love In Vain it lists
" Adaptation and new words by Jagger Richards "

The ironic thing here is that there has been some debate about the Stones' version of The Last Time being a rip-off of the Staples Singers single. So there is some question as to whether The Last Time should be credited to Jagger/Richards in the first place. I would argue that Brian Jones should have gotten 50% songwriter's credit for that great guitar riff alone. And as someone already mentioned, the lyrics to Bittersweet Symphony were written by Ashcroft, so I'm puzzled as to why he wouldn't at least recieve 50% songwriting credit. To be honest, this episode made everybody look bad: the Verve for taking full credit for something (the skipping string motif) they stole and Klein/Jagger/Richards for being overzealously greedy. In a fair and perfect world, Bittersweet Symphony should be credited to Ashcroft/Jagger/Jones/ALO/Staples Singers.

It's not their version, it's the ALO version and besides, yes, Brian wrote the riff. And Verves song is really a good song. And they never stole it, they negotiated the right to use a sample but when the song became a hit Jagger/Richards suddenly wanted 100% not 50%.

@#$%& the Verve. Who are they? It's the Stones they've copied. They nust bleed for it ...

I never really could figure out how this sounded like The Last Time until someone posted the ALO Orchestra version here a couple years ago and then I realized that the Verve basically just put lyrics over the music. If someone took the music to Satisfaction and then wrote new lyrics, that person wouldn't be able to claim any songwriting credits.
I still can't believe the Stones credited KD lang on Anybody Seen My Baby though.
Chuck Berry successfully sued Brian Wilson over songwriting credits to Surfing USA, saying that he basically took the music to Sweet Little 16 and changed the lyrics.
I see in the news lately that Avril Lavigne is being sued by a 70's band saying she copied their song for her song Girlfriend. I thought it was a bit of a ripoff of Get Off Of My Cloud since she sings "Hey Hey You You".

I must admit that when friends of mine used to slag off the Stones for getting royalties off BSS I could not give a reason why ,as I was not familiar with the melody in question and used to reply that it was from some obscure Loog Oldam record from the 60's.
Then A young guy at work played me the Loog Oldham track and I thought F##k me its the same F##king tune,no wonder theres all this fuss,it doesn't sound anything like the Stones,but as we all know now the original was credited to Jagger/Richards,and BSS does sound like Oldhams version.
Never given Ashcroft a thought since

The Joker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Super interesting, musical topic!
>
> During thie movie about Jagger released some three
> or four years ago (can't remeber the title)[Being Mick], you
> see Mick coming at Elton John's party. And there
> is this violin welcome band, they play Bitter
> sweet symphony on a classical mood. And Mick
> smiles. Guess he did not kwow what you said.


Actually, that was a very funny and clever moment in 'Being Mick,' because it was very clear that Mick likely had that intentionally inserted into the documentary as a cool 'in-joke' for fans who knew about the controversy a couple years earlier with the Verve.

gosh people haven't a clue.. someone wrote above that the stones wanted 100 percent after it became a hit but this has got to be untrue as the stones dont' get anything from that song... i believe it all goes to allen klein

and you know what: history has taught us that the verve did rip it off and that is the only song they ever had that was even a minimal hit... so i say @#$%& them...

stoned in washington dc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gosh people haven't a clue.. someone wrote above
> that the stones wanted 100 percent after it became
> a hit but this has got to be untrue as the stones
> dont' get anything from that song... i believe it
> all goes to allen klein

You are correct.

Allen Klein/ABKCO lodged the complaint, and he and his company get all the money. The lawsuit had nothing to do with the Stones at all, other than the history of the song. They didn't make a dime off the Verve.

Also, on the earlier copys of BB Prodigal Son was Jagger/ Richards.

highanddry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Allen Klein/ABKCO lodged the complaint, and he and
> his company get all the money. The lawsuit had
> nothing to do with the Stones at all, other than
> the history of the song. They didn't make a dime
> off the Verve.

The fact that ABKCO is the publisher does indeed mean that they money goes to them, but Jagger-Richards get their share according to the publishing deal they have with ABKCO. Whatever their percentage is (it depends on the contract, quite common is a 50/50 deal between publishing company and songwriters), but they get money for Bittersweet Symphony! Funny thing is that Bittersweet Symphony is based on a sample from Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestras version of The Last Time which has -at least in my ears- little or nothing to do with The Last Time as we know it. In Oldhams orchestra version I can't even make out the basic chord structure of The Last Time, let alone the melody! So basically Jagger-Richards get money for nothing in this case as they did not even have a hand in the actual Oldham Orchestra version recording....maybe that's the reason why Mick has to laugh his ass off every time he hears Bittersweet Symphony.....!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-11 02:20 by retired_dog.

Figure I might have missed something;but
what i s ALOO really? Aint the musical brains behind it the
early Glimmer Twins? Or is it Nanker-Phelge?
Andrew's a great guy; but is he a musican... ????

After the "I do"s, my wife & I walked back up the isle to the ALO version of this. I doubt anyone but my best man got it...but hey...we got married for us.

Our first dance? Sweethearts Together...which actually has an arrangement very similar to I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine...but who's counting?