OK

many HEATED debates through the week about the end of the Sopranos.

well, it seems as if HBO has confirmed (to a degree) that Tony is indeed DEAD.


I do agree with the Tony is dead theory, as does about half the people I talk with.
And with the exception on one rude poster, everyone who believes he is still alive have given thoughtful reasons why they think he is still alive.

here is a link to HBO saying that Chase had a definate ending and that Tony is dead.
[news.aol.com]

thoughts? (please keep them civil)

It must be a good series if you guys here talk so much about it - I only saw it once or twice. Might get it on DVD - it wasn't really big here, for some reason...

tons of Stones references in much of the dialog.
Janice had a Stones tounge tattooed on her tit.
MANY Stones and Keef songs played in the soundtracks (like Thru and Thru, Make No Mistake and Moonlight Mile)


Chase, like Marty, is a big Stones guy and it shows all thru this show... do yourself a favor and check out every episode

Lorenz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It must be a good series if you guys here talk so
> much about it - I only saw it once or twice. Might
> get it on DVD - it wasn't really big here, for
> some reason...


It's wonderful - best TV series ever. The Wire is also good if you haven't seen it.

HBO says Tony is DEAD

Good, maybe he'll take these Sopranos posts with him.

"No Anchovies, Please"

Elmo Lewis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HBO says Tony is DEAD
>
> Good, maybe he'll take these Sopranos posts with
> him.


No one's forcing you to open or read a thread which is clearly marked as OT.

Thanks for clearing that up. Might I suggest that you go to a Sopranos board. Hell, Tony's been killed on here this week almost as much as Keith Richards.



"No Anchovies, Please"

RadioMarv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK
>
> many HEATED debates through the week about the end
> of the Sopranos.
>
> well, it seems as if HBO has confirmed (to a
> degree) that Tony is indeed DEAD.
>
>
> I do agree with the Tony is dead theory, as does
> about half the people I talk with.
> And with the exception on one rude poster,
> everyone who believes he is still alive have given
> thoughtful reasons why they think he is still
> alive.
>
> here is a link to HBO saying that Chase had a
> definate ending and that Tony is dead.
> [news.aol.com]
> ony-is-dead-sopranos-theory-may-be/200706150651099
> 90001
>
> thoughts? (please keep them civil)


if you play the last episode backwards you can hear a message that says: tonys dead miss him miss him.

Lorenz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It must be a good series if you guys here talk so
> much about it - I only saw it once or twice. Might
> get it on DVD - it wasn't really big here, for
> some reason...


Not my favorite series of all time (probably top 5), but from a production quality standpoint probably the best series of all time. Each episode (although some were better that others) was movie quality.

The only reason to end the series with a five-minute scene in which nothing much happens would be if those are the last five minutes of Tony's life.

The headline says:
Tony Is Dead 'Sopranos' Theory MAY BE Valid...MAY BE....MAY BE... not



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-16 02:32 by Riffbuk.

Hey Marv looks like found some ammo for your theory but lets not close the case just yet. I read the same article last night and was still a little confused. I thought Chase wasn't going to interpret anything for us? Now he is verifying that certain scenes are important clues? What changed his mind?

If the article is correct about what was said (and I will assume that it is) it still doesn't mean Tony was killed. It does however mean that those scenes do mean something so the blank screen and the lack of sound does apparently mean someone was killed.

Was it Tony or was it the viewer? I'm not the first to come up with that theory. Some people believe the viewer was whacked at the end not Tony. It may seem like a reach but when you think about it it's the one scenario that is in harmony with most of the clues that we have. The orange and the scene with Bobby would still be important clues if it was the viewer who was whacked.

Who did everything go black and soundless on? Not Tony- it was us. We weren't seeing things from Tony's perspective when the picture and sound died. We were watching him- and we were the ones who didn't see or hear anything. All the clues and logic give by the Tony lives faction would also fit well with this theory. It would also fit well with Chase's assurance to Steve Perry that the family lives at the end. Unless Chase just lied to him to get the song.

To me the most telling thing in the article is where the HBO exec is speaking of Chase commenting on the Bobby scene and says "He won't say 100 percent what it means but he says some people have guessed closer than others". What does that tell you? There is more than one way to interpret the Bobbby scene.

Maybe Tony does die who knows, you want another hint? In the opening scene Tony is laying bed and it looks like someone laying in a casket but imo the audience gets wacked scenario fits well with the Tony lives arguments and also confirms that the clues spotted by the Tony dies faction do indeed mean something so both sides are right to some degree.

I tell ya what,
I like the open endedness about of the whole thing
I wouldn't be so bold as to assume the case is closed on either end.
Nor am I trying to prove anyone wrong, I am just looking to validate all theories.... My wife had the same "audience got whacked" theory (and this is a GREAT way to look at the end, I like it... I just don't agree), but she has since changed her theory to the Tony Gets Killed camp

And here is the funny part, it had nothing to do with my arguments, she proved it to herself AND reaffirmed my opinion by noticing a little editing style. It is really basic so I am a little angry with myself for missing it.
It is filmmaking 101

Chase is establishing a shot pattern throughout the scene.
Diner door bell rings
Tony Looks Up
Tony's Point of View

Bell rings
Tony looks up
Tonys POV

Bells rings
Tony looks up
Tonys POV

Bells rings
Tony looks up
BLACK (because silence and black IS Tonys POV at that moment)


The shows does not end on a shot of Tony, it ends on a shot of Tonys POV - which is BLACK cuz he is dead (IMO)

he shot it this way to train the viewer to expect the next shot, I have even heard people convinced that they actually SAW Meadow in the last shot. But thats a trick the mind plays because it has been trained to expect Tonys POV at the sound of the bell. and as I said, I think we DID see Tonys POV, it was black and silent.



A few more things,
Chase never told Steve Perry that Tony did not die, he just said the song would not be the soundtrack of an on-screen slaughter.

Since Chase has had a definitive ending in his head for years, I have to assume it was not "fade to black and fvck with everybody"
I have to think he knew Tony was going to die in front of his family. (Lets not forget Phil dies EXACTLY the same way 15 minutes earlier in the episode; we just saw it from a 3rd person POV rather than the 1st person POV for Tony)



FrankM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Marv looks like found some ammo for your
> theory but lets not close the case just yet. I
> read the same article last night and was still a
> little confused. I thought Chase wasn't going to
> interpret anything for us? Now he is verifying
> that certain scenes are important clues? What
> changed his mind?
>
> If the article is correct about what was said (and
> I will assume that it is) it still doesn't mean
> Tony was killed. It does however mean that those
> scenes do mean something so the blank screen and
> the lack of sound does apparently mean someone was
> killed.
>
> Was it Tony or was it the viewer? I'm not the
> first to come up with that theory. Some people
> believe the viewer was whacked at the end not
> Tony. It may seem like a reach but when you think
> about it it's the one scenario that is in harmony
> with most of the clues that we have. The orange
> and the scene with Bobby would still be important
> clues if it was the viewer who was whacked.
>
> Who did everything go black and soundless on? Not
> Tony- it was us. We weren't seeing things from
> Tony's perspective when the picture and sound
> died. We were watching him- and we were the ones
> who didn't see or hear anything. All the clues and
> logic give by the Tony lives faction would also
> fit well with this theory. It would also fit well
> with Chase's assurance to Steve Perry that the
> family lives at the end. Unless Chase just lied to
> him to get the song.
>
> To me the most telling thing in the article is
> where the HBO exec is speaking of Chase commenting
> on the Bobby scene and says "He won't say 100
> percent what it means but he says some people have
> guessed closer than others". What does that tell
> you? There is more than one way to interpret the
> Bobbby scene.
>
> Maybe Tony does die who knows, you want another
> hint? In the opening scene Tony is laying bed and
> it looks like someone laying in a casket but imo
> the audience gets wacked scenario fits well with
> the Tony lives arguments and also confirms that
> the clues spotted by the Tony dies faction do
> indeed mean something so both sides are right to
> some degree.

If we are going to get into shot patterns we are really digging into the abstract. The last thing we saw was Tony. If you want to anticipate the next shot you can do that but it isn't what we saw. You may be on to something, but it is in no way conslusive.

Chase came up with the ending right before this season (remember this season also includes the episodes from last year). He agreed to do a sixth season provided he had a long break so he could work on an ending.

Logic has to play a part as well. Chase can eventually say that Tony died but then he will look like an idiot because no hitman in his right mind (unless they anticipate being patted down) would hang around the diner, order a coffee so the guy behind the counter can get a good look at him then walk right past his target to go into the bathroom, then come out and shoot him. I thought Chase took pride in the fact that his show was somewhat realistic?

BTW did anyone catch the Kennedy and Heidi clue? It's another clue that can go either way but the episode where Tony killed Christopher was titled "Kennedy And Heidi". Kennedy maybe referring to someone getting assasinated and Heidi maybe referring to the famous "Heidi game". I think it was the Jets and Raiders where the network left the game prematurely and cut to a Heidi movie. Another one to think about.

here's my problem with the tony is dead theory...who is left to have killed him and why? yes, i could come up with theories but you need to really take some liberties and make some big assumptions. i do think teh ending was brilliant and i think there are many clues that chase left that will piece together the end. i think the whole series is a rosetta stone for deciphering the hyroglyphics (sp?) that is the sopranos.

> Chase is establishing a shot pattern throughout the scene.

RadioMarv, thanks for relaying that insight. It's the clincher for me.

twenny revlights Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Chase is establishing a shot pattern throughout
> the scene.
>
> RadioMarv, thanks for relaying that insight. It's
> the clincher for me.

yeh marv, i really dug your analysis, ty.

Well listen you guys may be right or may be wrong but it's funny how no one in the Tony dies faction has ever stated who they thought killed him. Maybe because it is too easy to refute?

So who killed him? It's easy to say he died- much harder to find anyone that would logically kill him without someone poking holes in your theory.

I'll be waiting to refute you if you ever come up with an idea lol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-16 04:50 by FrankM.

FrankM Wrote:
You may be on to something, but it is in no
> way conslusive.
>

Nor should it be, thats the fun of the ending


Rewatch the Heidi and Kennedy episode

Heidi and Kennedy are the names of the girls who hit Chris and caused the wreck that results in his eventual murder.

That is why the episode is titled Heidi and Kennedy

As far as who killed Tony (IF Tony is dead... as I believe BUT I am open to all different interpretations)

I think Tonys killer is a relative of Eugene.
Eugene is the guy that wore the Members Only jacket in the FIRST episode of this season. The episode entitled MEMBERS ONLY. The MEMBERS ONLY jacket is even pointed out and made fun of by a well dressed Vito. Tony denies Eugenes request to leave the mob and Eugene hangs himself.

I think the killer could be a non-mob relative of Eugene seeking revenge.

BUT I do think Chase intended us NOT to know who it was or why.
Tony has turned everyones life he has EVER come into contact with into crap, there is no shortage of people who would want to settle a score with him.

I believe that when Chase developed the ending, he knew he was going to kill Tony off AND he knew that he was going to have Tony killed by somebody totally unrelated to the current crisis in the Sopranos Mob.

IMO the mystery is not IF he is dead, but who killed him and THAT is the ambiguous ending Chase was shooting for all along.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-16 05:28 by RadioMarv.

I understand there are probably scores of people that would want to kill Tony but I meant who was it in the ice cream parlor that killed him? If he died suddenly then it had to be someone that was there. No one beamed down from the Starship Enterprise to do the job. It had to be someone in the room.

If Chase wanted us to believe that he was murdered but put no person there that would logically murder him then that isn't savvy film making- it's idiotic on his part.

From Day one he tried to make the series as realistic as possible. Instead of high octane shootouts he had more mundane endings. Now we are supposed to believe that Tony was killed by some ghost? Makes no sense.

At this point I really don't care if he lives or dies- the more I think about the ending the more it seems like a cop-out and I predict the anger by some fans may manifest itself in poor dvd sales of the final season and poor ratings on the A&E reruns which were doing fabulous up to this point.

He could have filmed Tony getting whacked or panned away from the table giving you the impression Tony lived or he could have left it up to us to decide but if he is going to slowly fill in the blanks for us as time goes on then he should have just filmed it that way. The blank screen only works if the interpretation is left up to us- otherwise it will probably be the dumbest ending in TV history and frankly it will be a huge black mark on the series as far as I'm concerned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-16 05:58 by FrankM.

chew on this............from the entertainment bible no less...............special attention to paragraph #2...........





The Sopranos creator David Chase wrote and directed last night's final installment of the long-running HBO mob epic, and he gave fans a relatively uneventful and, at times, bizarre send-off after six seasons of award-winning drama. The ending is what everyone will be talking about (or, more likely, complaining about) this morning, but the whole episode deserves careful examination. After the tension of last Sunday's spectacular entry, the finale felt like a toothless epilogue, an hour of anticipation with no pay-off.

The script was self-referential, making it clear that David Chase believes audiences put too much stock in fictional characters and that life is not like a TV show. Thus, the ending simply told us that, for the Sopranos, life is just going to go on. The prevailing thought that Tony would die in the final episode was obviously at the forefront of Chase's mind and he played off that notion throughout the episode, toying with the audience.

Unfortunately, surprising the audience by having a boring conclusion, although surprising, is still boring.

Retrospectively, the final coda was clever enough (with the quick cut to black very unexpected), but that, again, does not make up for the feeling of disrespect for the viewers. Leaving events up in the air for interpretation is all fine and good, but don't do it on the series finale. Fans wanted, needed, some closure. THey didn't really get it.

You know what, watching it again, that final scene is actually pretty beautiful, in the way in which it was filmed and paced. It created a ton of tension, and had viewers expecting a major event at any moment. But, when that all leads to nothing, to an ending that forces viewers to create theories and form rationalizations for Chase's motivations, it's not good.

The fact that the ending has produced a number of theories on what it actually means is reason enough to be disappointed by it. Did Tony die suddenly? Why was Meadow running? Was the guy going to the bathroom about to pull a Michael Corleone? Journey? Really?

David Chase may have just played a joke on The Sopranos fan base. He may have greatly miscalculated what fans wanted from the final episode. He may have just been fed up with everyone and their mothers predicting Tony's death. Whatever it was Chase was thinking or whatever his motivations were, the end result is the same: the series finale of The Sopranos was a mild disappointment.

Tastes great. Less filling. Tastes great. Less filling.
Tastes great. Less filling. Tastes great. Less filling.
Tastes great. Less filling. Tastes great. Less filling.
Tastes great. Less filling. Tastes great. Less filling.
Tastes great. Less filling. Tastes great. Less filling.
Tastes great. Less filling. Tastes great. Less filling.

Maybe the most controversial tv show event since "who shot J.R.". Who shot Tony? Did anyone? I'm wondering if Chase will ever fess up and tell us what he was thinking.

Some interesting quotes from Gandolfini when asked about a Sopranos movie. Suprisingly (since he is reportedly sick of the character) he didn't rule out doing one but rather says he knows nothing about it and that it is up to Chase as far as the movie goes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-16 08:44 by FrankM.

as long as were on the subject of Home Box Office, I reccomend their origional series Extras starring Ricky Garvis, perhaps the best Improv Comic on tV today



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-16 09:24 by ryanpow.

"It would also fit well
> with Chase's assurance to Steve Perry that the
> family lives at the end. Unless Chase just lied to
> him to get the song. "

You mean Producers lie? An HBO Producer lied to get something?

i've been following these discussions for some reason, even though over here we only got one season of the Sopranos
(a few years ago - the one that had Thru & Thru in it, which was definitely fitting!)

the article in the first post doesn't (as far as i can see) say Tony is dead; it just says
everyone can go on believing whatever they currently believe.

reading the different theories and reactions has been interesting, but unfortunately what i feel right now
is that the ending was mighty gimmicky. leaving it all so open to interpretation reminds me of
Arthur Conan Doyle getting fed up with Sherlock Holmes and tossing him over the edge of the Reichenbach Falls;
at the time he really meant that to be The End - but then a few years later he relented
and came up with an elaborate tale of how Sherlock had managed to survive. if they do that with the Sopranos,
i wonder if the viewing public will be more pissed off at being horsed around, or more delighted
to have more of the series (or a film or whatever).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-16 12:53 by with sssoul.