okay so in a recent thread the good Mathijs made this interesting observation:
"With Wood the Stones became more rock instead of blues, more punk instead of glam."
i'd never thought about it that way, but now i've gotten real intrigued.
glam is a genre i feel i've never gotten into, so i don't quite know how to articulate
what it is i'm trying to ponder here, but maybe if some good people here feel like talking about glam
as a musical genre rather than an image/visual style, maybe i'll figure out what it is i'm trying to ask.

You wanna know what glam is musically?

JumpingKentFlash

yeah, that would be a good start! thanks

That about sums it up for me. Great band, but I absolutely HATE Bryan Ferry.

JumpingKentFlash

Try this...

[www.doremi.co.uk]

Music that IMO stands for Glam
"Alladin Sane" - David Bowie
"All the Young Dudes" - Mott the Hoople
"Tanx", "The Slider" - T. Rex

Roxy Music sure looked glam but their music was so incredibly advanced, modern; I don't think it can be called glam. Ferry's lyrics were too good.
Glam lyrics...Marc Bolan (in his letcric T.rex period) and Bowie on "Alladin Sane" tell it all. There are these hot, electric words, nonsensical wordplays that sound extremely cool and deep, but that in realityt do not mean anything.

Forgot about the Stones. The Stones really could never be "real" glam because they had a message. Because their words actually meant something most the time.
"If you can't rock me" might be a good assimilation of glam. The whole IORR album was the closest they got. Like always they toyed with style, made it their own, and spit it back out Stones-style.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-28 13:26 by ChelseaDrugstore.

sssoul i thought about that too..even if in '73 Jagger really looked like a glam-rocker on stage, /thnx to bowie), can't see lot of connections musically apart two or three cases..To me the best glam album ever made are Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars, Lou Reed's Trasformer (and Bowie's on it as well), and maybe T-rex Electric Worrior. If you listen to Ziggy Stardust deeply you'll know evertything about it..
these rolling stones tracks are "glamy", at least the arrangemets of the studio version:
-it's only rock'n'roll (very T-rex style, listen to Get It On by T-rex..and Bowie were on it on backvocals)
-time waits for no one (a year before Bowie released Aladdin Sane, wich contains Lady Grinning Soul, same particular style ballad, with those piano licks, that phase gutar, that overall amosphere)

thanks people! the site Casino Boogie gave seems to define glam as rock & roll
with androgyne/sci fi/comic book "packaging", which ... hm.
Chelsea's focussing on it being musically simple and lyrically more slick than meaningful;
what about the sound/instrumentation? and the crucial question of course: does glam swing?

>> The Stones really could never be "real" glam ... The whole IORR album was the closest they got. <<

i guess i think of GHS/IORR as the Stones' "glam-tinged" phase, but that's because of
Jagger's over-the-top warpiness circa 73, and it's hard to say when that really started
and when (or whether!) it really ended ...
so would it make sense to say that the Stones influenced glam a lot more than they were influenced by it?
and just sort of tipped their hat to it in passing in 73/74?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-29 09:01 by with sssoul.

of course glam was influenced by the rolling stones, as all the rock music from late sixties to now..Bowie-Jagger during 73-74 really influenced themselves reciprocally..think of Diamond Dogs the song..almost a Brown Sugar rip-off, the cover of Let's Spend the Night toghether..they sure loved each other work.

>> these Rolling Stones tracks are "glamy", at least the arrangemets of the studio version:
- It's Only Rock'n'Roll (very T-rex style, listen to Get It On by T-rex..and Bowie were on it on backvocals)
- Time Waits for No One (a year before Bowie released Aladdin Sane, wich contains Lady Grinning Soul,
same particular style ballad, with those piano licks, that phase gutar, that overall atmosphere) <<

thanks for these, FarawayEyes2 - i was still struggling to compose my previous post when you posted yours.
i'm especially glad you mentioned Time Waits for No One - that was the first one i thought of
when i started pondering this, although (since i know nothing about glam as a genre)
i have no idea why. LoFL: maybe just because i've never liked it, although i grant the solo is impressive!

sssoul you really don't like TWFNO? luuuv that song! it's kinda strange for a stones song tough!

smile: sorry! but yeah, it's not one i ever feel a craving to hear.
the solo is beautiful, but the track is too "frilly" for me - too much ornamentation -
and ... no never mind, i don't like talking about the stuff that doesn't move me.
it moves someone else. and that's what it's for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-28 14:26 by with sssoul.

Glam was really basic rock n roll dressed up with glitter.

Bolan started in the glam thing but Bowie took it further with the outlandish stage costumes.

Bolan's musical influences were more 50s rockers rather than the Stones though eg, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Eddie Cochran.

For about two years, Britain belonged to Marc Bolan. He was bigger than the Beatles and the Stones ever were (for a short period). I remember reading that in '72 alone, he sold more records than the Who & Jimi Hendrix had up to that point combined.

I don't know about the rest of the Stones but I think it at least made Jagger sit up and take notice. Casino Boogie IMO is an attempt at Bolan style lyrics.

Bolan was also an excellent rhythm guitarist eg, Get It On & 20th Century Boy. He also plays the great guitar parts on 'Nutush City Limits'.

Anyone remember Mud?

Yes, IORR I think is defintly the most Glam album the Stones did. Lie I said "If you can't rock me" and like faraway said the IORR song are pretty glam. "Who's that girl with the bright blue hair?"
I thought Lady Sssoul's question "Does Glam swing?" is intersting, because I think Glam WANTS badly to swing, but again only talks about swinging. But musically does not really swing.It crunches. The song "Rebel Rebel" swings, but Marc Bolan was all the time talking about wanting to boogie; "boogie through your electric snakeskin lips baby" but the music rarely takes off. I mean Bolan had his very own gift and charm but it was not often 'boogie'.
"Te;egram Sam", "Metal Guru", "Ride a White Swan", "Get it On", "Hot Love", "Solid Gold Easy Action", "Born to Boogie", "20th Century Boy" and "Children of the Revolution" all were Bolan's mega hits. They all have a very electric crunch riff, strings and Flo & Eddie BU Vocals on a steady beat. Actually Bolan himself described it best in his phrases like "hubcap diamind star halo". It was just it's own thing.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

sure bolan started glam-rock..but even if i've been a huge fan of glam music i really couldn't get into T-rex..Some people use to say that Bowie steal other ideas and make them huge. The problem of the T-rex to me is that even they got lot of hits, they didn't have lot of GREAT songs! Bowie during his glam era wrote masterworks like Moonage Daydream, five years, ziggy stardust, rebel rebel, jean jenie, life on mars, suffraggette city, rock'n'roll suicide. Cuz he is a pure genius. If u listen a lot of other glam artists and songs (including t-rex) you'll immediataly feel how sound old, past, and even ridiculus is same cases they are. Lot of glam rockers wanna-be in those times..Bowie songs wont make that effetc, cuz they are SONGS, before that glam songs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-28 15:23 by farawayeyes2.

Oh faraway I disagree so strongly. I see it the other way around. Bolan wrote many great songs; Bolan wrote and wrote. All the early albums before he went glam are full of beautiful melodies.
Those very Bowie songs are all his best, I agree. He just never did much for me other than that.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

de gustibus non disputandum est chelsea
so u don't like thin white duke era or bowie berlin era? to me it's his highest point ever, and one of the highst point of rock music. but u are speaking with a huge bowie fan!

Bolan versus Bowie is a little like the Beatles versus the Stones. No doubt, Bowie owes a bit to Mick Ronson & Marc Bolan owes a bit to Tony Visconti.

Well, here are some Bolan/Stones connections for you:

1. Bolan's girlfriend at the time of his death (Gloria Jones) sang back up vocals on 'Salt of the Earth'.

2. Bolan had an affair with Marsha Hunt.

3. Bolan once attempted to grab old bum's rush Jagger by the balls. Jagger had him thorwn out from the backstage area. Thereafter, when Bolan ran into Jagger he would ask him: 'How are the old golden bollocks goin' then Mick'.

4. Bill Wyman's book has a picture of a 'Silver Surfer' jacket. It is supposed to be a Stones tour jacket but in fact it is a Bolan jacket.

go on go on, everybody - i'm fascinated (and i'm makin popcorn)
trying to finetune my idea of how glam sounds ... these youtube specimens are a help - thanks! - but
can i coax you to say what it is that's glam about If You Can't Rock Me? besides the bright blue hair, i mean :E
and about Time Waits for No One, for that matter - like i said that one came to my mind,
but i still don't know why.

with sssoul, I know of no other person that eats as much popcorn as you do.

I wouldn't say TWFNO is glam, more sophisticated 70's rock. I could easily imagine Rox Music creating such a song.

My understanding of what glam is... 50's doo wop, rock and roll, 'eavy rock, with rather meaningless lyrics about love, teenagers, space, all served up in a rather cod-gay way.

Hmm, I'm babbling!!!

here's some lovely clips sssoul:

jean genie (David Bowie, or should i say Ziggy Stardust? he seems an alien really!)




life on mars (Bowie)




john i'm only dancing(bowie)




moonage daydream (live, bowie)




get it on (t-rex, at the end they start little queenie!)




bowie and bolan togheter, we're not anymore in glam era, but you'll see how much the two glam masters changed after the movement died, glam was really something destinated to die in few seasons..we're in 1977, just before bolan died, god bless him

smile: i make a lot more popcorn than i eat.
it's cheap, cheerful, a brilliant source of dietary fibre
and it's fun to throw around when you're short of confetti

oh and meanwhile i've put on IORR (i couldn't earlier, as a result of causes)
and i guess i grasp the glam-ness of If You Can't Rock Me -
but i'd still love to hear someone talk about what the ingredients are.

Gary Glitter, now thats glam rock, maybe a lot of Alice Cooper, certainly a lot of early Elton. Music with a lot of punch and very flamboyant presentation, thats glam rock in my opinion, I repeat my opinion.

Cant for the life of me consider anything Stones to be glam

Lady Sssoul there is a good film about Glam with that guy who is starring in the TV show "The Tudors" right now. Name is Johnathan Rhys (I think). The film is "Velvet Goldmine". Jonathan is obviously based on Bowie and Ewan McGregor is Iggy. In some strange twist the filmmakkers did not get the rights to the big glam hits or to the big stars. So they put to gether a really excellent band that included Mike Mills from REM and Thruston Moore from Sonic Youth; big glam fans. Producers obviously got the ok from Roxy Music because they use way too much Roxy tunes as keysongs ("2 HB" and "Ladytron" become huge hits I think). The film shows the story of glam from soem points of view.
One huge thing that glam did was to okay homosexuality. It did a wolrd of good for those issues. Matter of fact many honchos who were usually most butch, all of the sudden walked around with eyeliner acting very fey.
I do not see "Time waits for no one" as glam at all. The topic is way too deep and by glam's standards depressing. I mean 'getting old'?? Glam is shallow. It is about hi heels, make up, electric guitars, shiny cars, screens and drive-ins.
Another thing in glam is that the characters in the songs are often uinisexual. They are not always female (the way most songs are because they are sung by guys). But guys were singing about cartoon like super stars, aliens,etc
Just look at the titles by T Rex that I mentioned in one of my last posts.
Faraway - I am not wild about the Thin White Duke, but I LOVE "Heroes" and "Low". Bowie always had 1 or 2 superb songs on each album.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

thanks Chelsea - so what about the sound/instrumentation/arrangements, rather than the lyrics and image?
(apologies for not being able to relate too much to the titles you've mentioned - i never got into this genre,
so apart from some of the Bowie numbers and the youtube clips i'm just not familiar with 'em)

some others on this site, 5years.com:
[www.5years.com]

Sssoulie have you looked for T.Rex or Marc Bolan at youtube? there are some amazing video collections by him. He was a great showman. And Elton, Bowie,Jagger, Lennon all had great respect and love for him, He rled for a couple years in Europe. Not just England but HUGE, HUGE! in Germany, Austria.

I think as far as sound is the elctric guitar. Short songs based on a crunchy riff. Sorry I keep using that word but it is the best adjective that comes to mind. Bowie's guitar sound (or Ronson's) in "Rebel Rebel", "Panic in Detroit", Jean Genie", . Glam actually showed Punk a lot. No guitar solos, 3 minute tunes, strong hooks, 3-4 piece bands. That is why Bolan's career is so radically divided into two eras: Tyrannosaurus rex when he was basically a hippy, playing acoistic guitar with a bongo player, singing about wizards and elfin kings. To later the Marc Bolan suoperstar in the glitter coat with white Stratocaster, high heels and a drummer, Bassist. Feather Boas.
Bowie "took it all too far" then. "Ziggy Stardust" one of the bibles of Glam. Power hooks all around Ronson's massive chords. In the 70's they got the elctric guitar sound the real way: by turning up the amp, hot pickups and playing chops. (Not like today where it only takes a Boss pedal) Bowie had similar roots like Bolan in the acoustic hippy days, long hair, Like many say Bowie never really stared a trend, but was a very close second and usually made it better. So the glam look is Bowie as Ziggy. All the kids who 15 years later were punks in thise days had Ziggy's red spiked hair and the high heels. On "Alladin Sane" Bowie brought keyboard player Mike Garson (?) along. Bowie it seems was always going to outgrow the small glam perimetr quickly. He himself played Sax and 12 string, his mind was too quick and he thought way too big to stay a 3 minute 45single star in England. He might have also seen that Bolan and Roxy and Slade all flopped in USA. This music/look was not going to be international. "Alladin Sane" is way more American in it's sound and vision. "Drive In Saturday", "Time" "Detroit" the Stonestune - that is already thinking across the Atlantic. And the piano is by many considered the highlight of the album. I have read some negative reviews of the album but the almost avantgarde solo on the title track, the runs on "Lady Grinning Soul" are always praised.
So Bowie added the flavor of 50's feel USA to the glam sound. "Prettiest Star", "Star", "Watch that Man". And his speedy rendition of "Let's spend the night together" that often gets dissed, but I have always loved. I think he topped out on Diamond Dogs where it already went way over a 14 year old's head.
Bolan got just terrible in his later years; it just went to show how right Bowie was. Bolan didn't chnage. He tried to incorporate doo wop; he added his to-be wife Gloria as co-singer and gave us some just horrendous cover versions of "Dock of the Bay" and a Smokey tune (can't recall which). But on every album there would always still be a gem or two. "New York City" and "Chrome Sitar"; greta late hits where he found his muse again. What defines Bolan's sound is Visconti's strings and Flo and Eddie. Their high backing vocals and the strings emphasizing the key guitar riff are archetypical Bolan. As much as his panting incomprehensible rhymes from Middlearth/Neptune.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."