Sorry this is not a Rolling Stones thread, but allright... excuse me!

Mathijs, I've been playing over a Behringer Vintager AC112 amp for five years now (since my 12th). I'm getting very tired of it, not in the last place because I already own a great guitar (Gibson Les Paul Standard) but the sound is still shitty and uninspiring (digital).

I want to buy a new amp (my parents are willing to pay half of the price if I graduate this year from vwo). But I really couldn't choose between a Fender (great great clean; rolling stones/elvis (james burton)/chuck berry/other great rock n' roll or country music) and a Marshall (great great crunch but thin clean; GN'R, Snakepit, Van Halen, ACDC, Hendrix... you name it).

Because I play in different bands with different kinds of music (rock n' roll / rock / hardrock) and I don't think I'll be able to buy another amp in the coming years, I need a good allround amp. For instance when I buy the Fender, I won't be able to lay down a heavy and solid sound for a Foo Fighters/Nickelback song (at least not the real deal [although they play mesa, but you know what I mean]). And vice versa with the Marshall. But I also know when I buy an allround amp, I won't have the real deal. So that's a difficult one.

Last week at a gig I had the chance to play through a Bogner Shiva stack. I always thought Bogner to be a very modern allround amp which would be nothing for me. Di-rect (Dutch band) in their early years playing through Marshall amps sounded great, but these days they also play Bogner and their sound is soo standard and uninspiring, just like their songs from 2003 - present btw. The same goes for Anouk... with her old band (Together Alone/Urban Solitude period, on which the guitarists played mesa's/marshalls/fenders) she sounded great and inspiring, but since she has this conservatorium teachers band with Leendert Haaksma who plays Bogner, she sounds sooo standard and uninspiring, and the songs are way too conservatorium structured.

So to make a long story short: I thought I wouldn't like Bogner amps, but when I plugged my guitar in the Bogner Shiva head, I couldn't believe my ears. The clean sounded so good and tight, with much headroom and it wouldn't distort at high volume levels. Also the overdrive was very good and beautiful; it sounded very creamy and Marshall like, but with the low heavy bottom end of a Mesa Boogie Rectifier. So my opinion turned 180 degrees. I think the Bogner Shiva is a perfect combination between Fender clean and Marshall crunch/Mesa overdrive.

The Bogner Shiva head is shown on this page: [www.feedback.nl] . Mathijs, what do you think about Bogner in general? And about this head? Is it overpriced in your opinion? Do you think its worth its money? Should I get this head?
It's available with EL34 or 6L6-tubes. What's the difference between those tubes (in sound)? Which tubes should you advice me?

I want to buy a 2x12" speakercabinet for my Shiva-head (notwithstanding which head I buy). I've heard various sources say that the Bogner speakercabinets are among the best made these days. Is that right? A Bogner 2x12" cabinet comes with Celestion Vintage 30 speakers (are these good? which styles of music do they (not) suit?) and costs about $825.00 (€700,-?). Is this a good price/quality ratio? Or can I better buy a Mesa Boogie cabinet? Are those better than Bogner's? I've heared some people say the Marshall 2x12" cabinets are poorly made these days (MDF), and don't sound very good. Is that right?

I know I've written a long story and have asked a lot of questions, but I really hope you'll take the time to answer these and give me a good and honest advice! You can email me privately if you want and answer in Dutch!: rolfverbaant@gmail.com

> Because I play in different bands with different
> kinds of music (rock n' roll / rock / hardrock)
> and I don't think I'll be able to buy another amp
> in the coming years, I need a good allround amp.
> For instance when I buy the Fender, I won't be
> able to lay down a heavy and solid sound for a Foo
> Fighters/Nickelback song (at least not the real
> deal ). And vice versa with the Marshall. But I
> also know when I buy an allround amp, I won't have
> the real deal. So that's a difficult one.

pfew, that's a lot of questions! I don't think I can give you the answer you want, as I don't know what sound you actually have in your head. And, if I understand correctly, you’re fairly young (and with all due respect) and inexperienced. My first advice would be to not spend lots of money on boutique amps before you played several of the classic amps over a longer period of time. I have had dozens of amps, and with most amps it’s the same story: you fall in love with it, but after a year the love is over. The amp is not giving you anymore what you want and you decide to sell it. Your question is a bit like the holy grail for any guitarist: is there one amp that does it all? I think the answer is no.

First: there is no amp (in my opinion) that gives you GnR AND Stones. These styles are just too far in between: GnR is based on high gain British amps with EL34 tubes, Stones is (at least since 1969) based on vintage American 6L6 based amps like Fender and Ampeg. The third catagory is what is called "Californian" amps, which are high gain amps based on either Fender amps (like Boogie) or Marshall/Vox (like Rivera, Bogner, Soldano, VHT, Budda etc).

There are some amps which can do both worlds a bit, but they all suffer the same problem: they don’t sound enough like either one style to really please. Koch has some great Twin Tone amps whom can do Fender clean and Marshall crunch, but they won’t do great Stones or GnR. Fender had the Tonemasters, but they are expensive and were never a big success. Fuchs Amps are based on Dumble amps, and these are much like very loud Ampeg amps with a Marshall crunch. Delicious amps, but they will always sound like Fuchs, and not like GnR. Budda has some truly great Marshall style amps which sound far better than Marshall’s, but again, even the 6L6 based Budda amps do not sound convincingly like Fender amps.

> Last week at a gig I had the chance to play
> through a Bogner Shiva stack. I always thought
> Bogner to be a very modern allround amp which
> would be nothing for me. Di-rect (Dutch band) in
> their early years playing through Marshall amps
> sounded great, but these days they also play
> Bogner and their sound is soo standard and
> uninspiring, just like their songs from 2003 -
> present btw. The same goes for Anouk... with her
> old band (Together Alone/Urban Solitude period, on
> which the guitarists played
> mesa's/marshalls/fenders) she sounded great and
> inspiring, but since she has this conservatorium
> teachers band with Leendert Haaksma who plays
> Bogner, she sounds sooo standard and uninspiring,
> and the songs are way too conservatorium
> structured.

Well, there’s two sides to this: First, Bogner amps are high gain American takes on Marshall amps. They are meant for the hard rock / metal market. They basically give loud pre-amp overdrive with lots of bass and mids, but not much treble. So, they are quite opposite of Fender amps. I find all these kind of amps totally boring and uninspiring, but that’s also because I find all American bands whom uses these kind of amps (like Good Charlotte) totally uninspiring and dull. But rememeber that I am already old, and still stuck in 1993.

About Direct and Anouk: do not forget that these two bands ARE mainstream rock. Their aim is to be commercially very successful, so their sound will always be very contemporary and middle-of-the-road. They will always be on the safe side, a bit like Bon Jovi. It’s hard rock for the masses. Both bands are highly studio processed. It doesn’t really matter what kind of amp they use, as the sounds will be altered and processed to death in expensive studio’s so that the music becomes very radio friendly.

Also remember: a Bogner Shiva is useless if you and your band play the local pub with 30 people in attendance. They are meant for big stages. Both Direct and Anouk play the big festivals, and then you can use a 100 watt Shiva.

> I think the Bogner Shiva is a perfect
> combination between Fender clean and Marshall
> crunch/Mesa overdrive.

Personally I don’t think a Bogner Shiva will ever give you the classic Fender crunch.

> what do you think about Bogner in general? And
> about this head? Is it overpriced in your opinion?
> Do you think its worth its money? Should I get
> this head? It's available with EL34 or 6L6-tubes. What's the
> difference between those tubes (in sound)? Which
> tubes should you advice me?

Bogner amps are very expensive as they are quality amps. The downside is that there isn’t a very big second hand market for them. If you decide to sell it again after two years you will loose at least half your money. Further, I can not advice what tubes you should take, as I don’t know your taste. EL34’s have a big midrange, but lesser bottom and high end, so they are great for Marshall crunch or dark VOX style sounds. 6L6 have big bottoms and glassy trebles, but lack a bit in midrange. They are excellent for Fender style crunch and country clean.

> I want to buy a 2x12" speakercabinet for my
> Shiva-head (notwithstanding which head I buy).
> I've heard various sources say that the Bogner
> speakercabinets are among the best made these
> days. Is that right?

Yes, that is true. They are expensive, but are high class cabinets.

> A Bogner 2x12" cabinet comes
> with Celestion Vintage 30 speakers (are these
> good? which styles of music do they (not) suit?)

I do not like V30 speakers. They are loud and aggressive, but are very one-dimensional, and they become very unpleasant to the ears after 30 minutes of playing. When I go see bands play I can immediately hear if the guitarist is using V30’s, and these bands all sound the same. They are actually only good or hard rock in my opinion, they won’t give good clean sounds, and they won’t give you a Stones sound at all. But please note: this is my opinion. If I would buy a Bogner cabinet, I would order it with Classic Lead speakers, or some good 90 watt Jensen speakers. Or the Eminence Red, White and Blues speaker: cheap, and great sound.

> Or can I better buy a Mesa
> Boogie cabinet? Are those better than Bogner's?

They are not better, they are different. They either have Boogie C90 speakers, which are Celestion Classic Lead speakers rated at 90 watts, which are American sounding Celestion speakers. I really like these speakers, although I am not a big fan of Celestion. A cabinet can also be loaded with Black Shadow speakers by Electro Voice, and the EM12L speaker is my favourite ever speaker. It does not colour the sound at all, it the cleanest speaker available, and it has the biggest bass, mid and treble ever. These speakers are also in the Boogie Mark serie amps, my favourite ever amp. These speakers give you the Rolling Stones sound as on Around and Around from El Mocambo. But, EVM12L speakers are very expensive, about €350 a piece.

> I've heared some people say the Marshall 2x12"
> cabinets are poorly made these days (MDF), and
> don't sound very good. Is that right?

That’s right, they are not very good sounding cabinets. But, they also only cost 300 euro. Bogner is a totally different category, it is a boutique brand, for the professional and experienced player.

To finish: I would not spend so much money on an amp without truly understanding all the differences. For the price of one Bogner head you can buy a great Fender Blues Deluxe amp and a Marshall JCM 800 combo, and you save yourself the price of the cabinet. I would not immediately buy new amps, you will loose a lot of money once you sell them again. Search the second hand market for some good amps, and try them for a year. A good Boogie mark III amp is a fender/Marshall hybrid that costs around €1000, and will get you in your ballpark for 95%. You will not loose money if you resell it after a year.

Try some good Fender amps like the Deluxe, or even a 70’s Pro Reverb or anything that size. Try some Marshall amps. Most new Marshall amps like the JCM 2000 sound generic, but there are some really good Marshall amps to be found. An old JCM 800 can be found for €500 and are great amps. The Slash 2550 amps might be the best modern Marshall, and can be found for €700. Maybe even try a VOX AC30 amp. 1970’s AC30’s go for around €1000, and new ones from China can be found cheaper and do sound great.

I would buy a good empty cabinet (Koch cabinets are really good and are half the price of Bogner) and experiment with speakers. Try Celestion, Jensen, Weber, Eminence, EVM. Mix them together to find your sound. Speakers cost €50 per piece on the second hand marker so it doesn’t cost a leg and an arm to experiment. Experiment with the back panel: an open cabinet sound much different to a closed cabinet.

Once you have found YOUR sound, then I would save the big money and buy the true expensive professional gear. Remember, Bogner gear is made for pro-guitarists with a hundred well paid gigs a year. They can afford these brands, and they can really use it as they play big stages.

Mathijs

Get a VOX Valvetronix (even the AD30-VT with its 10"-speaker sounds great).
From the VOX homepage:
The AD100VT, AD50VT, AD50VT-212, AD30VT and AD15VT feature our patented VOX Valve Reactor found on all Valvetronix products. The Valve Reactor circuit uses a 12AX7 triode vacuum tube together with an actual low-wattage tube power amp circuit, a virtual output transformer and a dummy speaker circuit that simulates the impedance changes of a real speaker. It also reconfigures itself so that its characteristics are the same as the amps it’s modeling (class A, class AB, negative feedback circuit, etc.). This means that all of the nuances of the original amp model including sound, feel, distortion and presence are reproduced accurately.

Great Fender AND Marshall AND high distortion sounds. Cheap, easy to handle, 2 channels, lightweight, great. I got two of them...

It's all about taste and priorities really isn't it.
One amp will never do EVERYTHING as well as you'd like it to.
My priority is for the classic Fender amp sound. Nothing else can really capture that properly.
So if I want higher gain sounds, or something more "British",I'll plug into a different amp or use a pedal.
The point is that you can get some very satisfying overdriven or high gain heavy rock tone via a pedal through a Fender ...but you can't get anything else to give you that classic fender "clean with attitude" type sound that typifies Keith's core tone for example.
you takes your choice. Like Mathijs hinted, you'll soon get tired with any amp that's not producing THE sound you really want. Amps that can NEARLY do ANY sound you want will tire you very quickly !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-12 15:28 by Spud.

micawber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get a VOX Valvetronix (even the AD30-VT with its
> 10"-speaker sounds great).
> From the VOX homepage:
> The AD100VT, AD50VT, AD50VT-212, AD30VT and AD15VT
> feature our patented VOX Valve Reactor found on
> all Valvetronix products. The Valve Reactor
> circuit uses a 12AX7 triode vacuum tube together
> with an actual low-wattage tube power amp circuit,
> a virtual output transformer and a dummy speaker
> circuit that simulates the impedance changes of a
> real speaker. It also reconfigures itself so that
> its characteristics are the same as the amps it’s
> modeling (class A, class AB, negative feedback
> circuit, etc.). This means that all of the nuances
> of the original amp model including sound, feel,
> distortion and presence are reproduced
> accurately.
>
> Great Fender AND Marshall AND high distortion
> sounds. Cheap, easy to handle, 2 channels,
> lightweight, great. I got two of them...


I've heard a few of these Vox's and my opinion is that they are very good value for money and do a lot of sounds quite well.

However, if you want true valve tone at a budget, I'd go for a Fender Blues Deluxe or something very similar. My personal preference is Fender for clean sounds and Hiwatt for dirty sounds - but the clean sound is the most important because you can always use a good overdrive or distortion pedal to dirty things up a bit.

The other choice might be to go for a Mesa Boogie but then you're doubling or tripling the price compared with a fender deluxe.

It's certainly hard to go wrong with a Fender Blues or Hot Rod Deluxe for the money...but don't buy one on reputation or because somebody else recommends it.

Buy it because the sound does it for YOU.

That's the only rule to follow when buying an amp. When you plug into the amp that feels right and comes alive for you, you'll know it. You won't have to think about it or analyse the tone...you'll just know.

Hi

I use a Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12. Great amp (I've had it 6 years, not changed the tubes, it hasn't let me down once) and great sound....makes me sound like Keef. You gotta spend some time tweeking it to get the sound you want. Set the bass @ 2, mid @about 4 and treble @ 6/8. Majthis will probably give you a better idea on how to set up the tone controls.

You mention you use a Les Paul....great guitar but try a Fender guitar thru some amps as this will give you a variation in your sounds.

Hope this helps.

NickB

Sorry for my late response, but I want to thank anyone for reading my storing and giving me an honest advice (especially Mathijs ofcourse!). I've gotten a whole lot more knew knowledge by reading all of your advices!!! Thank you!

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > A Bogner 2x12" cabinet comes
> > with Celestion Vintage 30 speakers (are these
> > good? which styles of music do they (not)
> suit?)
>
> I do not like V30 speakers. They are loud and
> aggressive, but are very one-dimensional, and they
> become very unpleasant to the ears after 30
> minutes of playing. When I go see bands play I can
> immediately hear if the guitarist is using V30’s,
> and these bands all sound the same. They are
> actually only good or hard rock in my opinion,
> they won’t give good clean sounds, and they won’t
> give you a Stones sound at all. But please note:
> this is my opinion. If I would buy a Bogner
> cabinet, I would order it with Classic Lead
> speakers, or some good 90 watt Jensen speakers. Or
> the Eminence Red, White and Blues speaker: cheap,
> and great sound.
>

which speakers did or does Slash (in GN'R and VR) use and which speakers did/does Keith Richards use? What makes a speakercabinet good(sounding) or not good(sounding? Is it the wood, is it the construction, is it both the wood and the construction, is it the speakers?

When I get a Bogner cabinet, and I replace the Celestion speakers with a speaker more suiting for Stones Rock N' Roll, will my sound be a bit like Keith or will that not be the case because it still is a Bogner cabinet and I need another brand of cabinets (like Fender or Ampeg) to have the sound that we, Stones fans, love so much?

Do all new celestion speakers (http://professional.celestion.com/guitar/) sound standard and uninspiring like the Celestion V30 (like you mentioned?)?

I saw on the Bogner site that the Shiva cabinet comes with Celestion Vintage 80 speakers. In that case, will the sound be much different that a Bogner cabinet with V30s or not?

mrrockandroll Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> which speakers did or does Slash (in GN'R and VR)
> use

Hard to say. He endorses the V30 since the mid 90's. But appetite and UYI 1 and 2 were recorded with straight JCM 800 cabs, most probably laoded with G12T or G12H, or even greenbacks. But to get his sound nowadays use a Marshall cab with V30's and use a lot o treble and presence.

> and which speakers did/does Keith Richards
> use?

About anything in the world. You would asociate the sound of the Stones most likely with American amps through American speakers. The Ampeg had Altec Lansing's, the Boogie's EVM, JBL and Altec, most vintage Fenders have Jensen's. But, as noted a couple of weeks ago he nowadays uses Celestion G12-80's of somekind,akin to the Lead 80. This is an American sounding British speakers. Keith does not seem to like any colouring or crunch from the speakers. He apparently likes the speaker to be as clean and efficient as possible, like the EVM and Lansing's do.

> What makes a speakercabinet good(sounding) or
> not good(sounding? Is it the wood, is it the
> construction, is it both the wood and the
> construction, is it the speakers?

Speakers and wood, to a lesser extent construction.

> When I get a Bogner cabinet, and I replace the
> Celestion speakers with a speaker more suiting for
> Stones Rock N' Roll, will my sound be a bit like
> Keith or will that not be the case because it
> still is a Bogner cabinet and I need another brand
> of cabinets (like Fender or Ampeg) to have the
> sound that we, Stones fans, love so much?

The Bogner cabinet simply is a very well made hybrid between a Vox AC30 cabinet and an Fender Twin Cabinet. This cabinet will amplify beautifully any speaker you put in to it. But why would you buy such an expensive cabinet to immediatly replace the speakers? There's plenty of other options.

> Do all new celestion speakers
> (http://professional.celestion.com/guitar/) sound
> standard and uninspiring like the Celestion V30
> (like you mentioned?)?

No, not at all. Celestions are great speakers, and they have speakers for all different kinds of music imaginable. Generalizing: about every record recorded in England in the 60's to mid 70's is recorded through Celestions. I was only talking about the V30, which is a hard rock speaker that I just don't like. Maybe you will really like it if you try.

> I saw on the Bogner site that the Shiva cabinet
> comes with Celestion Vintage 80 speakers. In that
> case, will the sound be much different that a
> Bogner cabinet with V30s or not?

I don't think Vintage 80's exist. I think they or you mean Classic 80's, which are really great speakers, close to what Keith uses in his Twin.

Mathijs