'scuse me if you've heard this one (been searching but there is a damn lot about JJF - so bear with me):

Is it now a historical - and unchallenged - fact that Mr. Wyman wrote JJF?

I just can't see it...not if you listen to most of his solo output -it just "does not wash" imho?

I know there is this story about Bill Wyman playing the riff with Charlie (and some others ??) one day when "the senior partners" entered the studio?? But if this story is true - should not Charlie have a co-write too?? And whoever else was there playing with Mr. Wyman? (and a riff alone is not a song)

I've also read in an interview that Mr. Wyman himself did not see his songs as Stones songs - that he could not write in that style - and I would say that JJF is THE quintessential Stones song??

..and funny that he hasn't taken them to court over that song - there must be a lot of dough generating from that one song every year?? (But I suppose Allen Klein owns most of it anyways...)

I don't think it's a historical and unchallenged fact that Wyman WROTE "Jumping Jack Flash"....Wyman is said to have come up with the RIFF. That riff, although integral, is not the whole song. Also, the band worked on it and changed it around so the riff Wyman originally played might not have been exactly the same riff that showed up on the single. He's also reputed to have come up with the riff to "Paint It Black" by some sources.

He also invented the cotton gin.

take a guitar.

play during, say, 10 or 20 minutes, trying to fing a riff that could be yours.

in 10 or 20 minutes you should have at least 3 or 4 riffs that are yours.

how many songs do you have ?

the answer is : 0

Yeah, and don't let us forget what he's discovered with his metaldetector

__________________________

____ ""ahhh, your honor,, i'd like to call bill wyman to the stand,,, no, not the guitar billy, bring the stand up bass with you please......................""



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-03 10:40 by soundcheck.

NICOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, and don't let us forget what he's discovered
> with his metaldetector


Yeah, hes trying to find something older than he is

The main riff is rhythmically like Satisfaction.

I've never read or heard Keith say in any interviews that Bill wrote it, even though Bill claims he has. Has anyone!?

I've read that Keith has acknowledged that Wyman wrote the riff to JJF.....but I've not seen an interview with Keith where he actually says it himself.

>> Wyman is said to have come up with the RIFF. ...
He's also reputed to have come up with the riff to "Paint It Black" by some sources. ...
I've read that Keith has acknowledged that Wyman wrote the riff to JJF <<

yeah but Bill is the source of all of these statements.
(okay okay: Keith has concurred that it was Bill who came up with that beat for Paint It Black, but certainly not that Bill *wrote* it.)
on the other hand ... Keith's said the JJF riff is Satisfaction backwards.
maybe the rhythm section got so bored waiting for the Glimmers one fine night
that they started playing their greatest hits backwards for laughs - i can picture that. :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-02 21:31 by with sssoul.

It's not really backwards, pretty similar really.

which is which?

dun dunnn, da da dunnn, da da dunnn, da da da!

dun dunnn, da da dunnn, da dun da dun da!

Would that stand up in court hahha!?

with sssoul........yeah those statements might have come indirectly from Wyman. I know I've read those things where the author hasn't attributed the information to Wyman, but it very well might have come from Wyman. But like I said, I've never seen an interview with Keith where he actually says these things himself. If you read the posts I've made on this thread, you'll see that I'm not making an argument that Wyman wrote those songs.

Didn't Bill invent the Internet too? or was taht Al Gore?

Maybe Bill did who knows. But if he did come up with JJF and Paint it Black. WHy is it on his solo albums and since he has left The Stones- he has never come close to anything like that?

don't give me that ole one two, one two three four

>> you'll see that I'm not making an argument that Wyman wrote those songs. <<

didn't mean to imply that you were. i was just sayin Bill's the one who's put forward all those statements.
good night now ...

yeah it's cool.......I've read some (maybe all) of those statements from different sources other than Wyman but they might have got those statements from Wyman to start with. And in all probability, that's the case. I doubt it came from other people in the band.

I don't think he ever claimed to have written JJF. He said he wrote the riff.
That being the case, he should have been given a one third writing credit.

It is definitely a bass driven song and that riff IS the song. Sure with just a riff you don't have a song but without that riff you don't have JJF either.

I have read an interview where Richards was asked about JJF and he never actually answered the question. He blew it off by saying something like if somebody writes a drum pattern used in a song that doesn't mean they should be given a writer's credit.

It would seem strange for Bill to out of the blue falsely claim credit for writing something.

I think Bill wrote it (the riff) on keyboards actually.....or that's what I've read.

I heard it was Bill bass and Brian Jones bashing it out on piano, Charlie on drums. Jagger walked in and said that sounds great, keeping playing it. the rest is history.

In Stone Alone Bill says he was playing a Thomas organ with Brian on guitar and Charlie on drums.

His story of events is believable, but, from supposedly writing the main riff, to ending up not even playing anything(maybe percussion?) on the single seems weird to me.

I never knew Bill didn't play the bass on the recorded version. If that was Keith he did a great job. Credit to him.

Why Bill wouldn't have played on the released version is a mystery to me. Maybe he knew he was going to be burned on the credits? There seem to be a few who say Jagger/Richards burnt them on writing credits besides Bill Wyman:

Marianne Faithful, Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor

I suspect Ron Wood as well but he hasn't said anything as far as I've heard.

terraplane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I never knew Bill didn't play the bass on the
> recorded version. If that was Keith he did a great
> job. Credit to him.

Bill doesn't play bass on a number of songs from Beggars Banquet era.

If I remember rightly, Sympathy for the Devil, Street Fighting Man, Jigsaw Puzzle, Stray Cat Blues and the single B side Child of the Moon all have bass played by Keith.

Yeah. He also plays a couple on EOMS. He is a good bass guitarist. MT plays bass on Tumblin Dice (I think) as well as Fingerprint File. He is also a good bassist. I don't know why Bill is missing in action on a lot of songs.

it's just sessions, sometimes Bill wouldn't be at a session and Keith or Taylor would pick up the bass and they'd record the song. No point waiting for Bill to rock up...

For Beggars Banquet, I just think Keith had very strong musical ideas on how the songs should be done, and the best idea should always be the one that ends up on the record no matter who comes up with it.

Keiths bass for Live With Me is another great one.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-03 12:23 by His Majesty.

>> He said he wrote the riff.
That being the case, he should have been given a one third writing credit. <<

i hope you mean "if that's the case" -
simply sayin he came up with it is a little too easy to start collecting royalties. :E

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> He said he wrote the riff.
> That being the case, he should have been given a
> one third writing credit. <<
>
> i hope you mean "if that's the case" -
> simply sayin he came up with it is a little too
> easy to start collecting royalties. :E

A counter argument could be that, why does Keith get royalties and credits for songs that only Mick wrote?

Sympathy for the Devil and Jigsaw Puzzle being two examples from 1968 where mick came in with the chords, melody and lyrics.

I know Mick and Keith just agreed to always do that, probably influenced by Lennon and McCartney, but it's still a sign that they hoard the credits in a way.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-03 12:42 by His Majesty.

>> why does Keith get royalties and credits for songs that only Mick wrote? <<

for the same reason Mick shares credit on numbers that Keith wrote: that's (as you note) their deal.
yes the Glimmer Twins have been credit-hogs; and yes, maybe Bill has a case for a major contribution to JJF;
but it's fairly clear that for whatever reason, he didn't consider it worth rocking the boat much (or at all) over it.
i don't know if any of us are in a position to judge whether that's because it wasn't that much of a contribution,
or because he figured out that working with the most consistently successful songwriting/performing team in history
was worth a hell of a lot more than a fuss over credits would be, or for some other reason.
i'm just sayin that someone saying they wrote something doesn't make it so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-03 13:06 by with sssoul.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> why does Keith get royalties and credits for
> songs that only Mick wrote? <<
>
> for the same reason Mick shares credit on numbers
> that Keith wrote:
> that's (as you note) their deal.
> yes the Glimmer Twins have been credit-hogs; and
> yes, maybe Bill has a case for a major
> contribution to JJF;
> but it's fairly clear that for whatever reason, he
> didn't consider it worth rocking the boat much (or
> at all) over it.
> i don't know if any of us are in a position to
> judge whether that's because it wasn't that much
> of a contribution,
> or because he figured out that working with the
> most consistently successful
> songwriting/performing team in history
> was worth a hell of a lot more than a fuss over
> credits would be, or for some other reason.


Yeah, Bill does say in his book, "who wants an argument in the studio when you're all trying to be creative!?".

I know Bill does the bass riff on 19th Nervous Breakdown. They played JJF on
RNR Circus and KR is really messed up and I would think Anita was right along
with him, the heroin problem was at its prime back then. Brian did an outstanding
job on that movie. The entire band was exhausted and it shows on their faces.

Hey,

The writing credit stuff is one of the big reasons Bill quit!

I read where it was one of the hot topics between him & Taylor, back then.

They were both unhappy over the "snubs" on writing credits when they thought
they had contributed to the creation on several numbers, over the years..

MLC