Not wanting to get lost in the controversies of a nearby thread, I'll start this one to focus more directly on my questions. I visited a site recently (can't find it again) headed something like "A Degree Of Murder - The Great Lost Brian Album?"
I have ADOM on video, and the soundtrack is very good. I've read speculation by Marianne, Anita, & others about why Brian didn't get his songs into the Stones. Marianne & Anita point out that Bill was able to get one (2, counting Downtown Lucy) recorded after the J/R 'takeover.' And that had BJ been able to present a similarly finished good song, it would have completely changed his sense of confidence & role in the Stones.
So, I know there are a few unissued songs from 1963-64 credited to Brian, including the Rice Crispies commercial, which I have. Has anyone around here got "Sure I Do"(?) or the BJ/Pitney collaboration, any of the songs Nico's site indicates were written by Brian & recorded by the Stones early on? If so what are they like?

I dont think any of them circulate

I asked Andrew Oldham about Brian's songwriting ability a couple of years ago and why he chose to push Mick and Keith as the band's songwriters instead of the guy who was, essentially, the main driving force in the band at that time.

His simple answer was that while they all made efforts to write in the early days, it was pretty clear right from the start that although Brian was multi-talented musically, an ability to write songs was a gift that he simply didnt have. The universal opinion was that his attempts at songwriting were simply awful, whereas Mick and Keith showed some promise.

I think that Degree of Murder site is out of action. I saved the mp3s somewhere. The sound was very bad but the music was interesting. Bluesy yet psychedelic (but also mixed in with dialogue, I hasten to add).

ALO is not someone who is NOT going to give you an impartial view of Brian's songwriting abilities. In my opinion, BJ helped 'craft' many of those 60's songs, but was never fairly credited. So when ALO says Brian had no songwriting ability, I think that's crap because Brian wrote a lot of the music . . .

Brian co-wrote a track called I Want You To Know with Mick and Keith and was recorded between the 20th and 21st of November and then worked on again on the 7th December 1963. It's available as part of a compendium of outtakes, but is ruined by female backing vocals. I have it lying around somewhere, but you get a few seconds.

It's not just AOL, but Marianne, Anita, Stu, (I won't bother mentioning Keith or Mick), and others...Maybe he could have collaborated more if that was in his nature, if the relationship with Keith didn't sour, and some of his difficulty no doubt had to do with personality/relationship factors on all sides....Brian made great contributions to the Stones, on his own completed a very good film score, with superb musicians (Page, Hopkins, Kennny Jones), and produced a daring, powerful album by the Master Musicians. But his lyrics (if they are indeed intended to be lyrics and not attempts at poetry) are simply not lyrics.

His ex Linda Lawrence has stated Brian was always writing songs, but would often crumple them up due to lack of confidence. I believe his confidence was eroded by the stones but also that they did not give him credit for input he gave. ALO has stated that Brian did more than just contribute, he often brought entire albums together.
The stones were not open with the jajouka material he wanted them to incorporate into the stones music. Too bad they waited 20 yrs before Continental Drift.

Brian may not have written lyrics, but he sure did have a hand in writing/crafting/composing the MUSIC of some of their songs. But, like MT, Bill, Ronnie, Billy Preston, Ry Cooder, and others, Brian was never credited.

I would have loved to be in that house of his as a fly on the wall listening to Brian's new ideas just before he died.

Brian contributed with great effect to music written by others. He just didn't write anything himself, and there's actually NOBODY, including Watts and Wyman, who ever stated that Brian actually wrote something. IN 45 years time not ONE piece of song has ever come up that was even partly written by Jones. It just wasn't his forte.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian contributed with great effect to music
> written by others. He just didn't write anything
> himself, and there's actually NOBODY, including
> Watts and Wyman, who ever stated that Brian
> actually wrote something. IN 45 years time not ONE
> piece of song has ever come up that was even
> partly written by Jones. It just wasn't his forte.
>
>
> Mathijs

Well, it not being his forte or not, that doesn’t indicate that he never tried. There are at least a couple of Stones outtakes (see the one I posted about earlier in this thread) that Brian at least contributed to meaningfully and who is to say that he never wrote at home? The fact that it's never being documented means jack shit at the end of the day.

SURE I DO (Brian Jones)* Rec: Nov. 20 or 21, 1963** Rel: Not released. There's a myth that Brian never wrote a song. That's not true. SURE I DO exists on tape and acetate. It was published by Posner music Co.,and is reportedly a slow number with Brian singing the lead vocal in his soft spoken mellifluous style speaking voice, not his raspy singing voice. The Stones appear as a unit on this tune. Brian told a ROLLING STONES MONTHLY reporter as late as '66 that he'd like to record "himself...I've got a fairly good voice for folky material";(RS Monthly #23, 4/66)- I always think his rasp would have served the band well on the occasional blues, myself.

I WANT YOU TO KNOW (Brian Jones)* Rec: Dec. 7 or 9, 1963** Rel: Never released. Another Brian song, featuring Brian on lead vocals and harmonica. Two versions of this may exist. This is fast song, sung in the "raspy" I Wanna Be Your Man voice. *On the acetate, Brian's name was crossed out, replaced with Jagger/Richard, which was in turn replaced by Brian's name again.



HERE'S THE LYRICS TO "THANK YOU FOR BEING THERE", WRITTEN BY BRIAN!:
(source--Mandy Aftel's book Death of A Rolling Stone, the Brian Jones Story)

As each sharp outline
Melts & weaves
And undulates in time
With the compulsive

Rhythmic insistence
Of each pounding musical line
The scornful dancing lady dressed
In black at last reveals
She really isn't there at all
She simply isn't real.
So thank you for being there
-My love
At least I know that you're real.

As I speak with you of love
-In metaphors and in code
A need for satisfaction grows
But they're stories still to be told
Of experience and fantasies
Of vision and of fears
But when the visions fade
-you'll be there
Lying in my tears
Thank you for being there my love
Then I know that you're real.

If the lashing tail of paranoic fears
Strike my smarting face
Your understanding comforts me
And puts everything in its place.
So shush, my love,
Your look and your touch
can leave everything unsaid
And I can face all those
little people
Just like Gulliver did.
Thank you for being there, my love
At last I've found someone who's real.

The maniacal choirs that screamed out a warning
Now sings a lullaby
The walls that crashed to bury you and me
Now shelter our hideaway
Thank you for being there, my love
At last I've found someone that's real
Thank you for being there, my love
At last I know that you're real.

Nice informative post Miss You. According to Martin Elliott's Complete Recording Sessions book, I Want You To Know is only in circulation as part of a compendium of various other early outtakes. I have it on CD somewhere and as far as I can remember, it's tagged on right at the end and as Martin Elliot correctly states in his book, it's ruined by the female back up. I'd describe the available version as nothing more than a 5 or 6 second sample!

The lyrics quoted are exactly what I meant in my post.

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-29 08:22 by cirrhosis.

Miss U. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SURE I DO (Brian Jones)* Rec: Nov. 20 or 21,
> 1963** Rel: Not released. There's a myth that
> Brian never wrote a song. That's not true. SURE I
> DO exists on tape and acetate. It was published by
> Posner music Co.,and is reportedly a slow number
> with Brian singing the lead vocal in his soft
> spoken mellifluous style speaking voice, not his
> raspy singing voice. The Stones appear as a unit
> on this tune. Brian told a ROLLING STONES MONTHLY
> reporter as late as '66 that he'd like to record
> "himself...I've got a fairly good voice for folky
> material";(RS Monthly #23, 4/66)- I always think
> his rasp would have served the band well on the
> occasional blues, myself.
>
> I WANT YOU TO KNOW (Brian Jones)* Rec: Dec. 7 or
> 9, 1963** Rel: Never released. Another Brian song,
> featuring Brian on lead vocals and harmonica. Two
> versions of this may exist.

I do not mean "rumoured" songs, or songs that "may exist". I mean songs that we, the public, actually can listen to. In the first 7 years the Stones recorded about 100 songs, add another 50 outtakes to the list and yet there is no proof what so ever of just a part of a song that Brian wrote. All we have is Rice Crispies, wich is just a 12 bar R&B song with lyrics by an advertisement lyricist.

Of course it is very well possible that he wrote at home, and that he had piles of own songs lying about. But part of being a writer is to be able to present ideas to a band, work on it, and geting your songs and your ideas released.

I don't understand why Brian MUST be a writer. He is a genius musician, he was the first real rebel and R&R star, why does he have to be a good writer as well? Elvis didn't write any of his own material, Tom Jones hardly wrote own material. Heck, even Led Zeppelin stole all their songs.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-07-11 21:02 by Mathijs.

Good points Mathijs and I certainly don't beleive that Brian was anything other than a fine musician and a cool lookinf rock 'n' roll star, but I Want You To Know is one track that he wrote or at least co-wrote and is in circulation. I have it.

There is just a huge difference, it's the difference that is the only one that matters IMO: it is part of what Mathijs says about "presenting your song". I work as a musician, and also happen to be the wirter in the band. there is just something when you're a writer that you can hera what is going to happen. The potential of a chord change. And then you get in front of the band and do whatever it takes to make them hear it too. It's almost like you have a responsibilty to that chord change to get it working. And for every writer there are 10 non-writers, who at times might have all kinds of wonderful changes or passages but can not stop and put them in a package. Brian was wonderful on many songs but he was given the frmaework to work with. The marimba part in Thumb is great. But J/K wrote the chord changes. The structure. Thta is also the reason I think Wymna's point about him having written JJF is bullsh*t. So he sat there and hammered that riff out. But it ook Keith walking by and heraing the potentila, hearing the crowd screaming it, heraing the chorus that was going to follow, hearing the power of those two hits. If not Wyman would have meandered on to soemthing else and have forgotten about it. Now if Wyman can say that in his mind he heard a voice growling "I was born BAM BAM in acrossfire hurricane, but it;'s a-a-awrite.." THEN he can say he had a ahand in writing it. If Brian can say that he picked yp the accordion and played the band the changes of BSG and was humming something like "I don't want you to be high.." I could think he was a writer.
There is a great quote that IMo sums up songwriting, and that I always carry around with me "A stonepile ceases to be a mere hill of rocks the second a man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

A nice post ChelseaDrugstore and I agree with both your and Mathijs opinions, but all I was merely trying to point out in the first place is that THERE IS a Brian Jones penned Stones song circulating on bootlegs. It's part of a compendium of outtakes and is called I Want You To Know. It's UNDISPUTABLE.

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is just a huge difference, it's the
> difference that is the only one that matters IMO:
> it is part of what Mathijs says about "presenting
> your song". I work as a musician, and also happen
> to be the wirter in the band. there is just
> something when you're a writer that you can hera
> what is going to happen. The potential of a chord
> change. And then you get in front of the band and
> do whatever it takes to make them hear it too.
> It's almost like you have a responsibilty to that
> chord change to get it working. And for every
> writer there are 10 non-writers, who at times
> might have all kinds of wonderful changes or
> passages but can not stop and put them in a
> package. Brian was wonderful on many songs but he
> was given the frmaework to work with. The marimba
> part in Thumb is great. But J/K wrote the chord
> changes. The structure. Thta is also the reason I
> think Wymna's point about him having written JJF
> is bullsh*t. So he sat there and hammered that
> riff out. But it ook Keith walking by and heraing
> the potentila, hearing the crowd screaming it,
> heraing the chorus that was going to follow,
> hearing the power of those two hits. If not Wyman
> would have meandered on to soemthing else and have
> forgotten about it. Now if Wyman can say that in
> his mind he heard a voice growling "I was born BAM
> BAM in acrossfire hurricane, but it;'s
> a-a-awrite.." THEN he can say he had a ahand in
> writing it. If Brian can say that he picked yp the
> accordion and played the band the changes of BSG
> and was humming something like "I don't want you
> to be high.." I could think he was a writer.
> There is a great quote that IMo sums up
> songwriting, and that I always carry around with
> me "A stonepile ceases to be a mere hill of rocks
> the second a man contemplates it, bearing within
> him the image of a cathedral."

Excellent post Chelsea, I couldn't agree more.

Mathijs

Brian was'nt a songwriter. That was Mick and Keiths job. All I've ever stated is that Brian co-wrote at least one song in circulation. Is anyone here disputing this?