I think Page was both shrewd and brilliant. For many songs on the early LZ albums, the sources are pretty obvious, at worst verging on outright thievery. He is a talented guitarist/producer, and an occasionally cynical 'lifter' - but Zep did develop over the years a sound of their own. The obvious blueprint for the debut was the Jeff Beck Group's "Truth" as many here already know - just examine similarities in sequencing, acoustic/heavy contrasts (Morning Dew, meet Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - and How Many More Times cops heavily from the JBG finale "Ain't Superstitious", right down to Jones' descending bass line near the end courtesy Ron Wood on "Ain't...") HMMT is basically a blues medley, including Albert King's "The Hunter," and "How Many More Years," virtually word for word, tho no composer credits appear other than Zep members (I know Willie Dixon sued and got his name on some song or other). Steve Marriott was mentioned as the obvious source for Plant's "Way Dowwwwwwn Insiiide, You - Need - Luvvvve" just as anyone who hears Spirit's "Taurus" will hear the intro to Stairway to Heaven, or "Shake Em On Down" in "Custard Pie." Once all this is on the table however, Zep remains a charasmatuc and unique band that used blues (and other) sources, just as blues musicians had been borrowing, refining and passing down songs and phrases and riffs for generations, until the recording industry, money, copyrites, and artifacts (records) led to the clearer idea of authorship. So, stealing anything in sight, Page still shaped (not invented) a 'heavy' sound, one that appealed to a generation too young to have caught the first rock & roll wave, or even the Beatles and Stones - as Jeff Beck wrote on the cover of the 2nd JBG album, "...the accent was on HEAVY music..." the theremin fueled psychedelia on 'Whole Lotta Love's," mid-section, the distinct SOUND of Physical Graffiti or Presence - these are the work of a brilliant producer - and he knew how to exploit Bonham's drums and Plant's early banshee wail to maximum (sometimes cartoonish)effect. Unlike poor Jeff Beck, who was clueless as to how to run a band or a career, the more calculating Page (with Peter Grant) helped make 'rock gods' seem more remote than their 60s counterparts, and they knew both how to build and sustain a massive following, and keep the band and its career going for a over a decade at the top of the rock heap. Thief he may be, but Led Zep's recordings retain a distinctly 70s (remote, slightly cold, bigger than life) power and mystery that still resonates. And, thankfully, by LZ III Plant was adding the humanity and humor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-08-04 04:32 by john r.

I can't help feeling that "The Mighty Re-arranger" is a slight dig at Page as well as its admitted meaning...


You might have to scrape me off the floor at the end of the tour, but it'll be really good scrapings. - Mick Jagger

Of course JP Jones also played organ on the "Truth" version of "You Shook Me" prior to the LZ debut, and I'd add Jake Holmes' "I'm Confused" to the list. Also have a copy of the Yarbirds' Live! Featuring Jimmy Page! on Epic, $50 a couple years ago, so it's still around...And if Truth more than 'influenced' the debut LZ, "Beck-Ola" had some obvious influence on the rougher, more 'ragged' sound LZ adopted around the fourth album.

How did Jimmy Page become the Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin? He was a faceless, rather shy studio guy before, and hasn't done much after. But during the reign of Led Zep, he was a rock god. He created an image for himself musically and visually. Where did it come from? Where did it go? Robert Plant is still Robert Plant, albeit older and weaker, but Jimmy . . .?

Before, there were some indications of major talent: w/ the Yardbirds' (a few tracks on "Little Games" including 'White Summer' which became 'Black Mountain Side', and the killer non-lp b-side, 'Think About It', plus the Beck/Page rave-up 'Stroll On'), & some superb work w/ Donovan (including the big hit 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' D knew how to deploy great musicians)...Jimmy was fading due to heroin addiction, evident by Zep's John Paul Jones dominated "In Through the Out Door"....then a few MIA years ("Death Wish II" soundtrack came out in '82), 2 very disappointing albums w/ the Firm (all those demands for a Firm reunion - it just, alas, may never happen), a decent solo album in '88, a '93 collaboration w/ David Coverdale that was more like a business merger, & 2 w/ Plant...People who saw him w/ the Black Crowes a few years ago said he was surprisingly hot, but they were doing Zep classics...

marianna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How did Jimmy Page become the Jimmy Page of Led
> Zeppelin? He was a faceless, rather shy studio
> guy before, and hasn't done much after. But
> during the reign of Led Zep, he was a rock god.
> He created an image for himself musically and
> visually. Where did it come from? Where did it
> go? Robert Plant is still Robert Plant, albeit
> older and weaker, but Jimmy . . .?

Did you not hear Jimmy play with the Black Crowes? ... that friggin thing kicks major ass ... Custard Pie trumps the original!

Jimmy was/is a guitar genius and his use of muti-cultural instrumentation set the benchmark (My apologies to Ry Cooder) Jimmy was the heart, soul and intelligence of ZEP and I'm sure he damaged himself significantly during those years but do suggest he play second fiddle to Plant in the Zeppelin saga makes me wanna choke on my vom.




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I think hutz13 you're right about Page being the clear leader of LZ, tho in recent years Plant has stretched himself more.

marianna Wrote:
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> How did Jimmy Page become the Jimmy Page of Led
> Zeppelin? He was a faceless, rather shy studio
> guy before,

You really mean this? Then read some history books my dear! Page was THE number one session guy in England. There's hardly a track released in England from 1964 until 1968 without Page playing the lead guitar. He was such a noted session player and influential guy pop magazines did full articles on him. He was a god already in 1966.

When Led Zep quit, Page was a full-grown heroin addict, preventing anything good to be released.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
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> There's hardly a track released in
> England from 1964 until 1968 without Page playing
> the lead guitar.
>
> Mathijs
>

So he played lead guitar on all those Clapton albums with the Yardbirds and Bluesbreakers, Peter Green albums with the Bluesbreakers and Fleetwood Mac, the Jeff Beck albums with the Yardbirds, the Mick Taylor albums with the Bluesbreakers, etc.? What a guy!

If he played lead guitar on most **pop** singles (including The Who's I Can't Explain, The Kinks, etc.), I would not be surprised. And he certainly was recognized back then, but "hardly a track"? He was not the only exceptional guitarist back then.

Smokey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There's hardly a track released in
> > England from 1964 until 1968 without Page
> playing
> > the lead guitar.
> >
> > Mathijs
> >
>
> So he played lead guitar on all those Clapton
> albums with the Yardbirds and Bluesbreakers, Peter
> Green albums with the Bluesbreakers and Fleetwood
> Mac, the Jeff Beck albums with the Yardbirds, the
> Mick Taylor albums with the Bluesbreakers, etc.?
> What a guy!
>
> If he played lead guitar on most **pop** singles
> (including The Who's I Can't Explain, The Kinks,
> etc.), I would not be surprised. And he certainly
> was recognized back then, but "hardly a track"?
> He was not the only exceptional guitarist back
> then.
>
>


In that era Page, Beck and Clapton ... and in America Jimi of course, I suppose you could argue for a lot of jazz players as well

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He was an active session player, but didn't really get the fame of EC, JB, JH, KR, or many other guitarists (Jorma, Jerry, Green, etc) until LZ - he joined the Yardbirds, or rather became their only lead guitarist, right when they stopped having hits, recording one final, very rushed album (Little Games) so it is - despite the lucrative session career - reasonable to say he didn't become a 'guitar hero' or 'rock star' 'til '69.

Sorry, but to the record-buying public in '64 to '66,
Page was pretty much an unknown. Despite a one-off single
and some articles in the trades, he was not a household name.
However, in the record-making business, he was.
INdeed, Bill Wyman has suggested that was a possible replacement
for Brian Jones as early as 1966, and Andrew Oldham certainly knew of his talents.
Most bands at that time never put session player on albums. Indeed, it was quite a whileuntil we all knew who played on Pet Sounds, and to this day, no one knows
who played the opening organ part on I'm A Believer (the Monkees tune.)
One of the most recognizable riffs ever, and no one knows who did it?
Page's reputation as a session man really flowered when he joined the Yardbirds,
and (important point) Zeppelin would not have happend if he had not joined that band.
And with his session work and his stint in the Yardbirds, he certainly did
his homework regarding stuido work (tricks) and and live work.
I think Marianna 's question is how a shy, quiet guy like Page
(he is rather demure in interviews) became a rock god.
It's in the music.

tomk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, but to the record-buying public in '64 to
> '66,
> Page was pretty much an unknown. Despite a one-off
> single
> and some articles in the trades, he was not a
> household name.
> However, in the record-making business, he was.
> INdeed, Bill Wyman has suggested that was a
> possible replacement
> for Brian Jones as early as 1966, and Andrew
> Oldham certainly knew of his talents.
> Most bands at that time never put session player
> on albums. Indeed, it was quite a whileuntil we
> all knew who played on Pet Sounds, and to this
> day, no one knows
> who played the opening organ part on I'm A
> Believer (the Monkees tune.)
> One of the most recognizable riffs ever, and no
> one knows who did it?
> Page's reputation as a session man really flowered
> when he joined the Yardbirds,
> and (important point) Zeppelin would not have
> happend if he had not joined that band.
> And with his session work and his stint in the
> Yardbirds, he certainly did
> his homework regarding stuido work (tricks) and
> and live work.
> I think Marianna 's question is how a shy, quiet
> guy like Page
> (he is rather demure in interviews) became a rock
> god.
> It's in the music.


What you say is all true but the media of today would inevitably put a spot-light on a guy like that ... different era and different rules and outcomes.

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hutz13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What you say is all true but the media of today
> would inevitably put a spot-light on a guy like
> that ... different era and different rules and outcomes.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if something like that happened today, Toto not withstanding.
Joe South and Glen Campbell and perhaps Area Code 615 {marvelous band}
spring to mind from back in those days. Then again, nobody knew what they did
until they statrted getting hit records.

Peter Grant also did his homework. Jimmy may have been shy - especially w/ the press, but he was certainly ambitious as well.

tomk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hutz13 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What you say is all true but the media of
> today
> > would inevitably put a spot-light on a guy
> like
> > that ... different era and different rules
> and outcomes.
>
> It would be interesting to see what would happen
> if something like that happened today, Toto not
> withstanding.
> Joe South and Glen Campbell and perhaps Area Code
> 615 {marvelous band}
> spring to mind from back in those days. Then
> again, nobody knew what they did
> until they statrted getting hit records.
>
>
>
>

Very good points ... Glen Cambell came to my mind as well as Jerry Reed and Roy Clark (Country players are always underappreciated craftsmen) I'm not familiar with area code 615 ... tell me more.


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hutz13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Very good points ... Glen Cambell came to my mind
> as well as Jerry Reed and Roy Clark (Country
> players are always underappreciated craftsmen) I'm
> not familiar with area code 615 ... tell me more.

Area Code 615 (the telephone area code for Nashville) was a band
made up of the cream of the crop of Nashville's session musicians.
Not only did they play on Nashville's finest, but people really started to take interest in who they were after they found out they played on Dylan's Blonde on Blonde, JWH,and Nashville Skyline. They were never really a gigging band, but they
made a few records doing what they do best, those Nashville/country-rock chops.
Their Stone Fox Chase was the theme for The Old Grey Whistle Test.
Members included Charlie McCoy, Bobby Thompson, Wayne Moss (guitar part on
Dylan's I Want You), Mac Gordon, Buddy Spicher, David Briggs,
Weldon Myrick (lovely pedal steel), and maybe on some songs, Lloyd Green
on pedal steel (one of the greats). Wonderful stuff, but you have to be
in the mood for it. It's Nashville mid-60's cats cutting loose.

Right, It's time for me to show off my knowledge of Page's session work!

The first point I have to make is this. Although Page was a lead guitarist, MANY of his sessions found him just playing rhythm. Often when entering the studio, he would have NO IDEA as to what he would be asked to do. Sometimes it would be to play an improvised lead, sometimes to read notes off a chart and sometimes just to fill in on rhythm guitar.

He used to work closely with another crack session guitarist, called Big Jim Sullivan. He was more of a country style player, where as Page was a rocker. The two of them would occasionally swap things around with Page playing the solos on the slower numbers and Sullivan contributing to the rave-ups


It is estimated that Jimmy Page appears on no fewer than 50 UK number 1 singles between 1963 and 1966. In fact, his first session resulted in a number 1. Diamonds, by Jet Harris and Tony Meehan.

He actually made his recording debut in 1962, contributing inaudible guitar to Neil Christian and The Crusaders first single. Page was of course a member of this band, but he quit due to health reasons. He was quite a sickly person back then and wasn't suited to life on the road. I'm sure he found going round the globe with Zeppelin in a private Jet far easier!

Another couple of points and it goes to show how easily things could have been different. In 1964, Jimmy Page actually joined a second croup called Micky Finn And The Blue Men. He recorded two singles with them, Pills and Reelin' And Rockin'. Someone further up in the thread mentions Page released a solo single. He did indeed. She Just Satisfies (backed with a GREAT track called Keep Moving) was released in 1965. The songwriter Jackie Deshannon provided back-up vocals. She was his bird at the time.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-08-06 10:30 by Big Al.

Also wrote/plays on one side of the great Nico's debut single (Immediate), '65