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exilestones
Speaking of TOP Paint It Black...

Prof Stoned bonus.rar
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Will be deleted on 9 April, 2020

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exilestones

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BlueTurns2Grey

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exilestones
Speaking of TOP Paint It Black...

Prof Stoned bonus.rar
[wetransfer.com]

Will be deleted on 9 April, 2020

Never in my thoughts would i believe, that there is such diffrence between the mono and the stereo mixes. I listened to flight 505 from my stereo cd and compared it with your mono mix. I was fascinated by the mono version. Bass and drums are so much clearer and louder. There is also a lot more reverb on the stereo mix, which doesn't sound right, i.m.o.

I also found out, that the Aftermath mono version of Out Of Time (5:18) is shorter than the stereo version (5:40). So we have 2 edits, the mono edit and the short us single edit(3:44)

So let's thank you very much for this fantastic upload. A real sound experience ! Aftermath at it's best.

I always loved the rich sound of Professor Stoned's Aftermath.

There's a few Out of Times out there. Several different Paint It Blacks, too!


Here's London Aftermath:

[we.tl]

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BlueTurns2Grey

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exilestones

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BlueTurns2Grey

Quote
exilestones
Speaking of TOP Paint It Black...

Prof Stoned bonus.rar
[wetransfer.com]

Will be deleted on 9 April, 2020

Never in my thoughts would i believe, that there is such diffrence between the mono and the stereo mixes. I listened to flight 505 from my stereo cd and compared it with your mono mix. I was fascinated by the mono version. Bass and drums are so much clearer and louder. There is also a lot more reverb on the stereo mix, which doesn't sound right, i.m.o.

I also found out, that the Aftermath mono version of Out Of Time (5:18) is shorter than the stereo version (5:40). So we have 2 edits, the mono edit and the short us single edit(3:44)

So let's thank you very much for this fantastic upload. A real sound experience ! Aftermath at it's best.

I always loved the rich sound of Professor Stoned's Aftermath.

There's a few Out of Times out there. Several different Paint It Blacks, too!


Here's London Aftermath:

[we.tl]

Thank you once again. Think this is close to my 1980ies CD. I'll send you a Link.

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exilestones
Speaking of TOP Paint It Black...

Prof Stoned bonus.rar
[wetransfer.com]

Will be deleted on 9 April, 2020

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exilestones

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BlueTurns2Grey
Thank you! Another great version !

You're welcome.

Weird mix but a very cool ending. I'd like to take that ending and put it on my favorite Paint It Black.

more to come....

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exilestones
There are many different releases of Paint It Black. Some are in stereo;from wide stereo to narrow stereo and everything in between.

Collect them all!


2002 saw a remastering and rerelease of the Rolling Stones catalog on Abkco.

Here's a remake of Paint It Black in the extended version done in narrow stereo.



[wetransfer.com]

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exilestones
Speaking of TOP Paint It Black...

Prof Stoned bonus.rar
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Will be deleted on 9 April, 2020

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stonesmuziekfan

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exilestones
Speaking of TOP Paint It Black...

Prof Stoned bonus.rar
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Will be deleted on 9 April, 2020

Don't know what I'm missing, but today is April 9th, and I missed this download.

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stonesmuziekfan

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exilestones
Speaking of TOP Paint It Black...

Prof Stoned bonus.rar
[wetransfer.com]

Will be deleted on 9 April, 2020

Don't know what I'm missing, but today is April 9th, and I missed this download.

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ironbelly

Hate to tell you...
You are wrong here. This 3.44 version that appeared on ABKCO 2002 re-issue of The Singles Collection - The London Years is mono. It is no narrow stereo, no electronically reproduced stereo, nothing that can be called stereo. Well, there are some artifacts after channel subtraction on the level of ~ -90dB. Actually, this is hiss. Similar artifacts are present for all tracks from In Mono box 2016. And those are really in very good mono.

Let me put it this way, most of old West German 'mono' London CDs from 820 xxx-2 series and US ABKCO discs from 1986 contain more stereo artifacts comparing to this version of Paint It Black.

Wave forms for Paint It Black from your file

Wave forms after channel subtraction


Pure mono, man, pure mono.

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exilestones

ironbelly, you could probably figure it all out when it comes to how many different masterings of Paint It Black there are?

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ironbelly

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exilestones

ironbelly, you could probably figure it all out when it comes to how many different masterings of Paint It Black there are?

I am not vinyl guy, so can't help you with that.

Regarding digital domain. We should separate Analogue to Digital (A/D) transfer, initial mastering and production mastering. Usually, A/D transfer and initial mastering is a unique combination. But later you got discs produced from different dupe tapes on different plants. Thus, the results for each case could be slightly different due to production mastering, though originated from the same A/D transfer.

1. London discs. Stereo 3.25. Infamous ‘MFSL’ A/D transfer. On West German Hot Rocks 1 [London 820 141-2], Japanese Hot Rocks 1 [P33L 25011, P25L 25047, POCD 1927]. Also, on Japanese only Big Hits (High Tide & Green Grass) [P33L 25016, P25L 25039, POCD 1919].


I believe the POCD catalog numbers are not the MFSL wide stereo. I believe they are the Old Abkco masters from the mid-1980s re-done in Japan with far superior sound.

The Old Abkco 1986, the original USA Rolling Stones Abkco CDs have the red banner at the bottom of the front CD covers which reads "Digitally Remastered From Original Master Recordings." The POCD issues also have the red banner at the bottom of the front CD covers which reads "Digitally Remastered From Original Master Recordings."




For all Hot Rocks A/D transfer is the same, but there are some differences in mastering. On German discs from glass masters 03 * and 04 # song fades out a second or two earlier.

Yeah, why they faded-out the early LONDON label MFSL made no sense as is very annoying!


Also, the whole discs from glass masters 03 * and 04 # are 180^o phase inverted with respect to the initial mastering (glass masters 01* and 02#), slightly differently EQ-zed and level shifted. The story of these post-1988 West German re-issues is rather hazy and unclear.


Right and every time the LONDON West German MFSL CDs were re-released, they could be slightly different with the exact same catalog number. You had to be an expert to figure-out if you had the first issue, second issue, third issue, etc... Which the first few issues had the fade-outs (cutting off the end of the song.


So, let’s put it aside. Japanese discs are like early West German from glass master 01* but are equalized a bit differently + level shifted. Rumor has it in Japan dupe tapes were used.

The Japanese MFSL CDs didn't have the fade-outs? Correct?


No one has clear information about the origin for Japanese BH (HT&GG). It seems, that A/D transfer was done locally in Japan using some tape they had in hands (probably, master tape of the LP for corresponding compilation). Track is still in wide stereo, but signal is 180^o inverted with respect to that initial 'MFSL' Hot Rocks 1 + different EQ (as usual) +level shift.

West German London Hot Rocks 1 from glass master 01*
DR11 -2.08 dB -15.86 dB 3:25 09-Paint It Black
West German London Hot Rocks 1 from glass master 03*
DR12 -0.60 dB -14.61 dB 3:24 09-Paint It Black
Japanese London Hot Rocks 1 P33L 25011
DR13 -2.25 dB -17.37 dB 3:25 09-Paint It Black
Japanese Big Hits (High Tide & Green Grass) P33L 25016
DR11 -0.96 dB -14.05 dB 3:25 02-Paint It Black


Here DRxx - dynamic range. Roughly, the difference between the loudest sample and absolute silence. The higher DR the better sound stage. Surely, DR16 for old CBS CD can't help Dirty Work in terms of music
First reading in dB = peak value (maximum volume) of the track. 0.0 dB value corresponds to the maximum allowed by the media.
Second reading in db = root mean square value (RMS) or average volume of the track. It is believed (an urban legend ) that the CDs with peak=0.0dB and RMS=-14dB provide the best listening experience. All those 'brickwalled' CDs are usually mastered at peak=0.0dB and RMS=-7dB.
3:25 or similar - track duration

I would say, the differences here are subtle, maybe only the one from BH(HT&GG) is a bit different (more bass and echo in the right channel). Apparently, Hot Rocks 1 made in Korea contain initial transfer, while the one from South Africa – equivalent to West German from glass master 03*.


I really don't know all of the technical stuff when it comes to analyzing sound. Thanks for the lesson!


Hot Rocks is always a surprise when it comes to which mastering of which song is on any particular Hot Rocks. Heart of Stone and Paint It Black are always the most fun.


2. ABKCO 1986. Mono 3.44. It could be found on West Germany for US Hot Rocks [ABKCO 66672], Big Hits vol. 2 (Through The Past, Darkly), US version [ABKCO 80032] and Aftermath US version [ABKCO 74762]. Here it is rather muddy and weirdly processed. First of all, it is no ‘pure’ mono, there are stereo phasing in the intro and during fade for sure. After channel subtraction there is quite a residual signal. It is not centered around 'minus infinity' level, but is shifted and distorted. This is no ‘unbalanced’ mono or Electronically Reproduced Stereo. Just weird production/mastering choices or the tape was badly misaligned during A/D transfer. One should ask Andrew Loog Oldham what he did in the mastering lab, this is his creature.

Note, this is unique pressing of Hot Rocks. But I believe all European and Japanese equivalents for BH vol.2 and Aftermath US came with this version.


The Old Abkco over all sounds like shit but maybe not every song. Or at least there were some great mixes/masterings. Old Abkco Hot Rocks has a great mix of Paint It Black and Under My Thumb.

Did the Old Abkco CDs have the same masterings as other Abcko releases (vinyl) that came before the first Abkco CDs? Or were the CDs not a new mix/mastering?



3. ABKCO 1989-1990 A/D transfer. Mono 3.44. It can be found on The Singles Collection – The London Years (all pre-2002 editions) and Hot Rocks 1964-1971 (starting 1990 till 2002, no matter country of origin). Please note, that Hot Rocks 1 [London 820 141-2] made in France by PRS and PMDC came with this version, but not stereo ‘MFSL’ as it stated on the back cover. The same is applied for Hot Rocks 1 [London 820 141-2] made in Brazil and Argentina and 2CD [London 820 140-2] made in the UK, France and Australia. Also on 1990 Paint It Black single [London 882 144-2] from The Netherlands.

The later France Hot Rocks had the same catalog number [London 820 141-2] but not the same MFSL (Mobil Fidelity Sound Labs) mix at all? It was bad enough when each re-release had the same catalog number and it was hard to figure-out if we were getting the songs that were faded-out or not! WTF! Right?


This is different tape transfer. Also, it is inverted 180^o with respect to the previous one. This ‘mono’ master can be characterized as ‘unbalanced’ mono - the same content is recorded in the both channels on the CD but with slight level shift. I.e. one channel is a notch louder than the other. After channel subtraction one can hear the track but very quietly. This is no Electronically Reproduced Stereo and no narrow stereo. Just poorly produced mono. It could be caused limitations of 80’s digital technologies and bugs during glass master cutting/production. This version is better comparing to the previous one but no ‘ear candy’ either.

I shall not focus on tiny details and put here tons of numbers. This version sounds virtually the same on different discs (plus-minus slight level shift due to production mastering).

So, in 2002 we got all new mixes and remasters? The MFSL mixes were put to rest?


4. ABKCO 2002. Stereo 3.24. On SACD - Hybrid Aftermath US and Hot Rocks (all post-2002 editions). It is also present on EU compilation Rolled Gold +. This is new A/D transfer. It is wide stereo. I’ll quote Lukpac: ‘"Paint It, Black" is also in some ways better than the London version, as its EQ more closely matches the EQ of the original, stereo vinyl version (the London version, by contrast, was somewhat murky and indistinct). It has its silent-channel "blacked out" during the intro, but that isn't too terribly distracting’. You can prefer old London MFSL to this one or vice versa.

The mixes are sooo different. That's why this thread is fun. I'd love to know how many different Paint It Blacks, Heart of Stine and Under My Thumbs were released. What I always wanted to know is what was the first Paint It Black? A UK extend version single in mono, correct?

Was that the only version of Paint It Black for a while? If so, which one came next and then next and how many remasterings of the Stones catalog on Abkco are there. I'm not any good with EQ or figuring-out sound, so I appreciate your insight. You do a very good job of explaining. Now we ne need the whole story!


5. ABKCO 2002. Mono 3.44. New tape transfer of the mono mix. The Singles Collection – The London Years, SADC-hybrid. Essentially, the same as the one described in 3. But this time better tape transfer with no residual 'unbalanced' mono signal. This one can be called 'pure digital mono'. 2004 - Singles 1965-1967 box also contain this version. Unfortunately, I do not have it in hands at the moment. Thus, I can not confirm if it is exactly the same as on THS-TLY or level shifted.

For 4 and 5 there are no variations with respect to A/D transfer and initial mastering. Those fancy limited Japanese SHM and SACD editions from the last years originate from the same A/D transfer, although some could possibly been effected by slight level shift.

6. Guitar Hero version. Stereo 3.50. Extended stereo remix. Something unique from unknown source. Most probably, remixed from original master tapes. But one should check fine print in the booklet of that game to dig details.

7. Mono 3.22. On Aftermath US from box set In Mono, 2016. Same A/D transfer as for 5 (2002 mono) but with early fade and slight level shift.

I never heard about 'narrow stereo' or 'electronically reproduced stereo' for this track in digital domain.

My friend was telling me about Paint It Black from 2002 there was a narrow stereo mix. He was judging by ear. Maybe he was mistaken?

The MFSL releases got better as time went on as far as sound quality and most particularly noted, not with the fade-outs. I believe the P33L series, P25L series were the best of the bunch as far as sound and no fade-outs? Correct?












++++++++++++++











For the people who are just learning about the different mixes of the Abkco Stones catalog... The first Rolling Stones CDs came out of West Germany around 1986. They were a wide stereo mix by Mobil Fidelity Sound Labs (I think they were located in Russia?) (I'm writing from memory.)

The MFSL mixes on the LONDON label has "LONDON" and the red and blue in the logo and usually a red and a blue box on the spine of the CD but as you see above, not always.

The wide stereo mixes are a whole different way to listen to the Rolling Stones.

You can know if CDs/LPs have the wide stereo mix by the catalog numbers as mentioned by iornbelly.

In a nut shell, please correct me if I'm wrong, the first several offerings in wide stereo had songs that faded-out, were cut off at the ends. These CDs were from West Germany. Then the West German CDs were reissued several times with the exact same catalog number. Then I believe they were reissued in France and some in South America back in the 1980s with the same catalog number.

Then Japan issues the wide stereo but I think none of those were faded out and the sound got better as time went on.

Then Abkco released the Stones catalog in the USA which people refer to as 'Old Abkco" (as opposed to New Abcko which came out as the Rolling Stones Remastered series in 2002).

I believe once the 2002 Remastered series came out, the MFSL mixes were never reissued again.

The Old Abkco had the red banner across the bottom of the cover "Digitally Remastered From Original Master Recordings." These USA Old Abkco issued Stones CDS sounded bad. Maybe we could get more detail as what was wrong with the sound of these CDs. My big question is, "Were these Old Abkco CDs a brand new mix.master or where they released before on vinyl. I don't think they were but I don't know how to analyze the sound as iornbelly does.




Old Abkco above



I remember reading a long while ago to "STAY AWAY FROM THE CDs WITH DIGITALLY REMASTERED RED BANNER AT THE BOTTOM. AVOID THESE LIKE THE PLAGUE!" The person was obviously thing the Old Abkco CDs had bad sound.

I had been looking for the Paint It Black I grew-up with. A longer version. I started noticing different quality of sound in different Stones releases, different versions of some songs. I noticed different Paint It Blacks.

Someone suggested in the mid 1990s the POCD series (Japan) had great sound and I thought so (compared to the old Abkco) and were different than the wide-stereo released.

I noticed the POCD series had the banner across the bottom just like the Old Abkco. I came to the conclusion the the POCD series were the same mixes as the Old Abkco but in great sound? Anyone agree or disagree?



POCD series - I'm 99% sure the Old Abko and the POCD series come from the same master tapes.