Yes, You're right ! I dont wanna offend somebody. F u c k i n Hungarian style.

For me are high resolution and three dimensionality very important in music. And this can an SACD with a good equipment. The most of the SACD's from the Stones series from Mr. Klein have not a phenomenal sound. I can hear the greatest differnce between standard and SACD versionen in case of Beggars Banquet. The slide from Brian in No Exp is really mind blowing. Satanic is significantly better on SACD too.When you hear Gomper or 2000 men, you are really in an "another land" ...

I agree. Hifi freaks forget about music and listen first their fidelity system.
BUT SA-CD and now SHM cd's offer a better sound obviously.
The main thing is fidelity. Is your system or not reproducing the way it should be ?
SA-CD can be in stereo (we are not necessarely talking about multichannel system) but a brilliant one.

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Theif in the Night

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toomuchforme
try this to find used HIGH END equipment
[www.audiogon.com]

the best SA-CD player is the Sony TA-E 9000ES but it is very expensive
Some Marantz SA 11, 15 or 17 are brilliant too but rare now/and or expensive on the second market.

Marantz is about to put on the market some new SA-CD in september
[fficial%26hs%3D1Xw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">translate.google.com.ag]

As I understand it,the Sony TA-E 9000ES is not a SA-CD player but a pre-amp.Here is one link to it : [jeffn.com]


There are Marantz players much more advanced than the Sony products.There are Marantz SA-CD players which are not far under $7,000 [us.marantz.com] but,again these SA-CD only players cannot even pass the DSD signal because they don't have the connections needed to do so.

CAN YOU CLARIFY THIS ? YOU MEAN THE MARANTZ COULD NOT PLAY PROPERLY THE DSD ABKCO 2002 ?
I WAS THINKING ABOUT A SA 15, quite expensive : 1200 euros
I've read this. I guess this is what you mean ?

"SACD players are also not all created equal from the standpoint of how the DSD signal from the disc is handled. Cheaper players that read SACD will actually convert the DSD stream to PCM before it's sent to the DACs (this process alone kills a lot of SACD's resolution; a freightening number of universal disc players work this way).

Proper SACD players have true 1-bit DSD chipsets that are dedicated to SACD playback. Almost every Marantz player capable of reading SACD that I've seen are so equipped. Perhaps your dealer will be nice and let you swap your player out with the Marantz DV7600. Just keep in mind that this will be a downgrade in the analog output stage as well as the power transformer (EI transformer instead of torroidal)."



YES I MADE A MISTAKE about the 9000. THIS IS THE ONE : SONY SACD XA 9000 ES



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 15:03 by toomuchforme.

Quote
Hungarian Wild Pig
Yes, You're right ! I dont wanna offend somebody. F u c k i n Hungarian style.

For me are high resolution and three dimensionality very important in music. And this can an SACD with a good equipment. The most of the SACD's from the Stones series from Mr. Klein have not a phenomenal sound. I can hear the greatest differnce between standard and SACD versionen in case of Beggars Banquet. The slide from Brian in No Exp is really mind blowing. Satanic is significantly better on SACD too.When you hear Gomper or 2000 men, you are really in an "another land" ...

Thomas--

I agree with you 100% ... having high resolution and three dimensionality (great way to put it!) in music is very important to me too, and even though the Stones kick ass on a cheap stereo, a better quality sound system can make their music sound even more glorious ... the hell with certain people on this board who are too ignorant or jealous to accept that idea ...

Cheers,
Drew

Hi Drew !

Thank you very kindly for the friedly words !

Yep, very friendly, isn´t he? ..."the hell with certain people on this board", very friendly indeed.

Oh, sorry for the mistake, I'm very ashamed, if it helps ...
Whats your problem now ?????????????????????

HDMI is not necessary to get true 5.1. The optical digital audio hook-up works also.

What do you mean "true 5.1"?? As I said before,the only connections that can pass the DSD signal out of a SA-CD player as DSD are 1) HDMI version 1.2 or higher OR 2) Denon Link III OR 3) I Link a.k.a. Firewire. You can get 5.1 surround sound with an optical digital audio hook-up if you are playing a 5.1 SA-CD but,nobody here said that you could not.However,the optical digital audio hook-up cannot pass the true DSD signal as DSD out of the SA-CD player.See (once again) " Can I Output SA-CD Audio Via Digital Output ? " on this page : [www.sa-cd.net] Also see the SA-CD definition here ( look under playback hardware - about half way down that entry ) : [en.wikipedia.org] *



Here is an excerpt from wikipedia : " SACD players are not permitted to digitally output an unencrypted stream of DSD. Players initially supported only analog output; later some proprietary digital interfaces such as Denon Link permitted encrypted transmission of DSD. There are now two standard digital connection methods capable of carrying DSD in encrypted form: i.Link and HDMI (version 1.2 or later, standardised in August 2005).

The older i.Link interface is generally found on older mid- to high-end equipment and some current top of the line units from the Japanese manufacturers. HDMI is more common, being the standard digital connection method for high-definition video+audio. Most new mid-level and higher 2007 model year and later A/V processors support the HDMI 1.2 specification's DSD over HDMI feature. Most boutique manufacturers still do not support DSD. Some HDMI 1.1 spec DVD players convert DSD to LPCM and then pass it to an HDMI 1.1 spec or later processor. Lower end processors usually convert the DSD to LPCM, higher end ones usually convert it to LPCM for bass management or DSP but can also process it natively at the expense of DSP and bass management. Some new DVD players from Oppo Digital, Pioneer, Onkyo, etc. now support HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 and will pass DSD over HDMI as well as LPCM. Be aware that some players, for instance, Onkyo DV-SP504, will not support DSD or LPCM over HDMI without downscaling it to 48kHz. SACD or DVD-A will be played through anlaog outputs instead. The older i.Link interface has been dropped from all but high end A/V processors and DVD players.

Some players, such as the PlayStation 3 (not the 40GB version), do not output DSD over HDMI, but instead convert it to PCM.

[edit]
DSD "

Quote
toomuchforme

Quote
Theif in the Night

Quote
toomuchforme
try this to find used HIGH END equipment
[www.audiogon.com]

the best SA-CD player is the Sony TA-E 9000ES but it is very expensive
Some Marantz SA 11, 15 or 17 are brilliant too but rare now/and or expensive on the second market.

Marantz is about to put on the market some new SA-CD in september
[fficial%26hs%3D1Xw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">translate.google.com.ag]

As I understand it,the Sony TA-E 9000ES is not a SA-CD player but a pre-amp.Here is one link to it : [jeffn.com]


There are Marantz players much more advanced than the Sony products.There are Marantz SA-CD players which are not far under $7,000 [us.marantz.com] but,again these SA-CD only players cannot even pass the DSD signal because they don't have the connections needed to do so.

CAN YOU CLARIFY THIS ? YOU MEAN THE MARANTZ COULD NOT PLAY PROPERLY THE DSD ABKCO 2002 ?

It can to that point but,see above.It lacks HDMI 1.2 or above and i Link a.k.a. Firewire and Denon Link III therefore it cannot pass the DSD out of the SA-CD player as DSD without converting it.

If you guys like a little "3-dimensional sound", you should try TOUP:s series of 5.1 DTS editions of Stones records:
[www.toupltd.com]

No need for a SACD-player, just a regular DVD-player and receiver that can handle DTS, and a set of surroundspeakers. I promise you, it will be a revelation, you will hear things you never heard before.
This is what the Stones SACD:s would have sounded like if they were done in 5.1.

The following titles are available "out there":
Sticky Fingers 5.1 DTS
Through The Past Darkly 5.1 DTS
Let It Bleed 5.1 DTS
Beggars' Banquet 5.1 DTS

Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings

I'm glad I got out of the HiFi industry !

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Spud

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Svartmer
If you really care passionately about music all you need is a good Stones album and a cheap little stereo. If you only care about levels, frequencies, dynamic ranges etc, all you need is to get a life.

Very true. Many "audiophiles" get so obsessed with the kit that they forget what it's for.
The best HiFi is simply that which makes music more enjoyable and rewarding to listen to. Follow that rule and the rest looks after itself ;^).

I agree but,the key to the whole operation is to get the right kit / gear as soon as possible and to get it set up correctly so that you don't have to worry about it anymore.Once you're set up the right way,you can just enjoy the music (or movies or whatever) and not spend time worrying about the equipment.Years down the road a piece of the set up may die out and/or become obsolete,at which point you just replace it with the appropriate new piece of equipment.

The possibility exists for DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby True HD (5.1 or 7.1,probably stereo 2.1 as well) music discs.

I'm guessing that it would have to be on a Blu-Ray disc ( Blu-Ray Audio Disc as it was with DVD-Audio discs ).It may be possible that the high resolution audio could fit onto a DVD if there was no video that would need to fit on there with it.I can't think of any reason why this is not possible.It may not be popular because a) most people are not set up to hear this type of audio & b) it would not be free as stealing or buying for next to nothing,lossy mp 3's is. It would,however,represent an option of noticably higher quality.

Theif in the Night, I understand that DSD is converted using the HDMI link. BUT I do not use it. To listen to SA-CD I only use the analogue outputs (RCA) and however I read the SA-CD layer, no ?
I do not use the optical or dig coax outputs. So what's the point with the DSD lost trough digital outputs ?

the most important output for a high end cd player is this (here the SA11 Marantz) :

Quote
mickijaggeroo
If you guys like a little "3-dimensional sound", you should try TOUP:s series of 5.1 DTS editions of Stones records:
[www.toupltd.com]

No need for a SACD-player, just a regular DVD-player and receiver that can handle DTS, and a set of surroundspeakers. I promise you, it will be a revelation, you will hear things you never heard before.
This is what the Stones SACD:s would have sounded like if they were done in 5.1.

The following titles are available "out there":
Sticky Fingers 5.1 DTS
Through The Past Darkly 5.1 DTS
Let It Bleed 5.1 DTS
Beggars' Banquet 5.1 DTS

It is very easy to burn yourself DTS records
You create 5 mono files with DTS SURCODE ENCODER and you burn a DTS cd.
I did for Dirty work.
It is nice to listen to it in 5.1.

Maybe toupltd does it better with professional tools..

Quote
toomuchforme

Quote
mickijaggeroo
If you guys like a little "3-dimensional sound", you should try TOUP:s series of 5.1 DTS editions of Stones records:
[www.toupltd.com]

No need for a SACD-player, just a regular DVD-player and receiver that can handle DTS, and a set of surroundspeakers. I promise you, it will be a revelation, you will hear things you never heard before.
This is what the Stones SACD:s would have sounded like if they were done in 5.1.

The following titles are available "out there":
Sticky Fingers 5.1 DTS
Through The Past Darkly 5.1 DTS
Let It Bleed 5.1 DTS
Beggars' Banquet 5.1 DTS

It is very easy to burn yourself DTS records
You create 5 mono files with DTS SURCODE ENCODER and you burn a DTS cd.
I did for Dirty work.
It is nice to listen to it in 5.1.

Maybe toupltd does it better with professional tools..

They really do an excellent job, by separating instruments in different channels.
Also highlighting instruments buried in the mix.
Don´t know how, but I bet it´s very timeconsuming.
Try one of their titles, and let us know what you think.
A little googling will help you....

Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings

at the moment I have not with me my 5.1 system. Just the stereo one
but I will try for sure in a few months.

Actually, since I last posted, I went thru my piles of CD:s and files on the PC and found a Blondie Greatest Hits. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I remebered it said in the info file how it was done, and was made just like you said, with a software making monofiles etc. So I had a quick listen, and must say it´s miles apart from the TOUP:s titles. Don´t know how TOUP made them, but they´re just fantastic. The Blondie disc I had a harder time enjoying, the separation was not good at all, seems the software used randomly created the files or something, so separation was almost unhearable. But that´s just me.,,,

Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings

interesting indeed. I am now curious to listen to their releases.

Quote
toomuchforme
Theif in the Night, I understand that DSD is converted using the HDMI link. BUT I do not use it. To listen to SA-CD I only use the analogue outputs (RCA) and however I read the SA-CD layer, no ?

O.K. but,my whole point is that the DSD is NOT converted when using certain HDMI connections (ver. 1.2 or higher) on certain players.The Pioneer DV-58AV is one of a few examples of players that can send out the DSD * without * converting it. [www.pioneerelectronics.com]

This allows the DSD to be sent to a receiver/amp that can handle DSD.You are probably reading the SA-CD layer but,I'm not sure about using analog connections and analog cables to listen to a technology called Direct Stream * Digital * (DSD).

Quote
toomuchforme
I do not use the optical or dig coax outputs. So what's the point with the DSD lost trough digital outputs ?

The point with the DSD lost through the digital optical audio connection was in regard to Shadooby's post and the point was the fact that,under that scenario,the DSD is not being passed out of the player as DSD but instead as PCM.

Quote
toomuchforme
I agree.
BUT SA-CD and now SHM cd's offer a better sound obviously.
The main thing is fidelity. Is your system or not reproducing the way it should be ?
SA-CD can be in stereo (we are not necessarely talking about multichannel system) but a brilliant one.

SHM-CD is not quite on the same level as SA-CD.This is the order in which I rank the different audio discs :

1) SA-CD

2) DVD-Audio

(big drop off)

3) HDCD [en.wikipedia.org]

(another drop off)

4) XRCD24 [en.wikipedia.org] * [www.elusivedisc.com]

5) SHM-CD

6) CD

well I understand that everything is made to give us a headache.
But I cannot imagine the high end cd players not able to reproduce the high quality informations fixed on a SA-CD through RCA (the Sa-CD sound is supposed to remain the vinyl sound).
Many audiophiles use only the RCA outputs. So what would be the improvment thanks to hdmi where all the informations are mixed in one cable instead of a RCA's separations ?

But this is something interesting to know.

Sure that SA-CD is far better than SHM (on paper at least, some blind tests could be interesting) but not a lot of new releases are SA-CD unfortunately)
And if we consider your list and the record's sells the winner is n°6 ....too bad.

With HDMI,all the informations are not really mixed in one cable.There are in effect 19 cables inside of the HDMI cable I believe.Check out this diagram (about half of the way down the page, " How HDMI Works " ) : [electronics.howstuffworks.com] . 19 pins *

All I'm saying is that vinyl = analog / RCA stereo audio connections = analog / SA-CD and DSD = digital / HDMI = digital.The RCA audio connections may be fine but,they cannot pass DSD out as DSD because of limitations that were put in place to prevent copying.The only way to copy a SA-CD is to resort to the analog "hole".The DSD can't go out of the player as DSD unless it is encrypted so that it can't be copied as it is.The three connections that I mentioned (HDMI version 1.2 or higher & Denon Link III & Firewire a.k.a. I EEE 1394 a.k.a I Link) support encrypted DSD.On the other hand digital coax,digital optical (SPDIF), analog with RCA connectors can't do this.I would go with the analog outputs with RCA connectors over the digital optical if the player is good enough > i.e. has good enough DAC's (digital to analog convertors).If the DAC's can get the job done well enough,the DSD will be converted to analog to be output over the analog outputs with RCA connections.This is fine as well.

"Sure that SA-CD is far better than SHM (on paper at least, some blind tests could be interesting) but not a lot of new releases are SA-CD unfortunately)
And if we consider your list and the record's sells the winner is n°6 ....too bad."

I agree this is unfortunate.

To clarify on XRCD24,it is a regular CD but,mastered and produced in a different way.

I don't buy into the blind tests (fixed or not conducted properly?) that say everything sounds the same no matter how many changes they make.Everything does not sound the same.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-14 03:15 by Theif in the Night.

by blindtest I meant a listening of sacd and cd and shm of the same song. Some people do not hear any difference. Some people mention too that the cd part of a high end player could sound better than the sacd one. Maybe for the reason you mention, when the DAC is not good enough.

I know.I just don't believe that either they have the right equipment set up correctly or are telling the truth.Perhaps they are not listening to SA-CD albums recorded in DSD ( this would rule out anything recorded before the turn of the century ),maybe they are just listening to music recorded in another way transferred to SA-CD.Are these the same people who can't hear the difference between a regular CD and compressed MP 3's? I wonder if they can hear the difference between when someone knocks on their door and when someone knocks on their neighbours door or does that sound the same as well?