Thats true, sssoul. Maybe it was one of their 'band meetings' as opposed to an actual session?

After the shenanigans in the late 70s, they didnt really use Toronto as any kind of base of operations until 1994. After the CNIB show, I dont think they set foot there until 1989

Still a great story though...LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-10-17 19:34 by Gazza.

>> Still a great story though <<

yes it is - and totally easy to picture :E

Taken from www.timeisonourside.com

Charlie Watts: Jazz and cleaning up

The jazz orchestra was a good band in the end - during the period we were playing I had cleaned up, so the first phase was completely barmy and the second phase was totally straight: it was the first band I had played with for years where I was completely straight.

I would have died if I had continued using drugs... I just stopped everything. I barely ate for two months, because I'd started to get fat from the drinking... (D)rugs are very hard to give up. For me, anyway. I didn't even take that many. I wasn't that badly affected, I wasn't a junkie, but giving up was very, very hard. Much, much harder than the rest of it... (I stopped when) I slipped down the steps when I was in the cellar getting a bottle of wine... (I)t really brought it home to me how far down I'd gone. I just stopped everything - drinking, smoking, taking drugs, everything, all at once. I just thought, enough is enough.


Charlie Watts (2003): In a bad way

During this period, I was personally in a hell of a mess and as a result I wasn't really aware of the problems between Mick and Keith and the danger these posed to the band's existence. I was in pretty bad shape, taking drugs and drinking a lot. I don't know what made me do it that late in life - well, to Keith, it wasn't late enough! - altough in retrospect I think I must have been going through some kind of mid-life crisis. I had never done any serious drugs when I was younger, but at this point in my life I went, Sod it, I'll do it now - and I was totally reckless.

What scared me was that I became a completely different person by going down that path, a totally different person to the one that everybody had known for over 20 years... This phase lasted for a couple of years, but it took a long time for me, and my family, to get over it.

Ron Wood: Playing drums on "Sleep Tonight"

(I played) drums on... Sleep Tonight - I could never get over the thought of playing instead of Charlie, I thought that would be a sacrilege, but he insisted because he was going through a lot of problems at the time and couldn't be at the studio. Keith said, Right, you're on drums, so I finally hacked it into shape and when Charlie got there I gave him the sticks and he said, No, I can't get it right, you play it. It worked out good.

and finally this...if Charlie's problem manifested itself in 1983, and Mick and Keith were "concerned" that the "engine" of The Rolling Stones was "permanently stalled" then I can see why Mick embarked on a solo project. I don't think he was ready to retire at the age of 40. I don't recall exactly when they signed the CBS record deal.

Luckily Charlie cleaned up and they came back. As Keith once said "welcome to the 2nd half".


Charlie Watts: Starting drug use

(My drug and alcohol problems were) my way of dealing with (family problems)... Looking back on it, I think it was a mid-life crisis. All I know is that, taking amphetamines and heroin, I became totally another person around 1983 and came out of it about 1986. I nearly lost my wife and everything over my behaviour. I was not particularly fun to live with.

The CBS record deal was signed in on 25 August 1983 worth nearly $28 million, they had to deliver four albums ($6 million per album plus promo expenditures) ... these were "Dirty work", "Steel wheels" and "Flashpoint"... I dont't know if the deal was cancelled early or if I miss one? Whatever...

Reading the stuff you all dug out this gives a completely new perspective about the 1980s Rolling Stones... if Charlie was on drugs from 1983-1986 (I always thought it was 1986-1988 or something) Charlie at least must have been ONE of the reasons why there wasn't a tour in 1984 after "Undercover" or in 1986 after "Dirty work"... also as it was said why Mick Jagger was interested in a solo deal... maybe also Keith supporting Charlie in a certain way that wasn't too helpful given the circumstances, initializing the rift between Mick and Keith... as it looks Mick was the only "clean Stone" in the 1980s with Keith doing vodka (and some more I guess), Ronnie doing coke (and some else), Charlie even on heroin and Bill finally on Mandy...

we seem to have some disagreements over the time frame of Charlie's problems -- so can you guys hash that out?


plexiglass

I'm trying to read between the lines if the Stones "media machine" fabricated a rift between Mick and Keith to "shelter" Charlie's personal problem with drugs and alcohol.



Really, I think it was a combination of many things - Ronnie's drug problems, the solo Mick, Charlie's health, the bad time they had recording Dirty Work, etc.

Glad it all worked out in 1989.

"No Anchovies, Please"

Did Charlie and Shirley separate during his drug episode? I seem to recall it was mentioned on this board maybe 2 or 3 years ago but no timeframe was ever mentioned.

Jesus, the 80's were a very bad time all round...

The fact they came back so strong after all of that with Steel Wheels and the excellent supporting tours is truly amazing! What a band!!!

Rockman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Charlie kicks ass throughout 'Dirty Work'...
>

It's funny you mention that. I remember reading somewhere that Charlie was having a hard time drumming during DW. I think he used electric drums or something to help him (because of his drug use). Maybe someone can shed light on this.

Sam Spade Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no evidence
> Charlie was "speedballin". In the 60 Minutes
> interview (referenced above in this thread)
> Charlie only admits to taking heroin and
> amphetamine and washing it down with liquor. As Ed
> Bradley said to him "it was up and down". Charlies
> doesn't say if he was shooting or snorting heroin.

i used the term out of convenience but when i do a google search, i see the term is used for both injecting coke and heroin as well as ingesting a combination of both in an unspecified manner. whatever, the two together is dangerous.

F.U.C. the Captain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The CBS record deal was signed in on 25 August
> 1983 worth nearly $28 million, they had to deliver
> four albums ($6 million per album plus promo
> expenditures) ... these were "Dirty work", "Steel
> wheels" and "Flashpoint"... I dont't know if the
> deal was cancelled early or if I miss one?
> Whatever...

The 4-album (ie STUDIO albums) deal was to include at least one solo album by Mick. So, the four CBS 'Stones' albums turned out to be Shes The Boss, Dirty Work, Primitive Cool and Steel Wheels ('Flashpoint' would have been an 'optional' release). The spat between Mick and Keith really took off because as Keith saw it Mick (with some prompting from CBS boss Walter Yetnikoff who envisioned his 'future' as a major solo act) cut himself a solo deal on the back of a Stones album contract.

Not quite sure how this all worked out with the division of the $28million advance, considering the other 4 band members wouldnt have been involved at all in two of them.



>
> Reading the stuff you all dug out this gives a
> completely new perspective about the 1980s Rolling
> Stones... if Charlie was on drugs from 1983-1986
> (I always thought it was 1986-1988 or something)

I didnt get the impression it was as early as '83 but it certainly seems to have been a problem in 1985, but what do we know, I suppose?

> Charlie at least must have been ONE of the reasons
> why there wasn't a tour in 1984 after "Undercover"

Not so sure. Jagger basically went ahead and cut his debut solo album in '84. Feelings within the band probably werent too good by the time that solo deal had been signed.

> or in 1986 after "Dirty work"...

see my earlier post. Jagger refused to tour in '86 because of the band's state of health. He didnt even tell Keith first either. (Theres a cracking book by Bill Flanagan called 'Written in my soul' which came out around 1986 or so and has most of the major writers of the day talking about the art of songwriting. Mick and keith are both interviewed, separately. It gives an interesting insight into the state of the band at the time in that Keith is talking with boundless enthusiasm about the Stones going on the road - and Flanagan hasnt the heart to break it to him that when HE interviewed Mick just shortly before, Jagger had told him that there was no way the band were going on tour)

Also, it was probably obvious to him that the relationship between himself and Keith may not have even survived a lengthy spell of touring. I'm absolutely convinced that had the Stones toured behind Dirty Work, they would have split acrimoniously soon after and qould possibly never have worked together again.

also as it was
> said why Mick Jagger was interested in a solo
> deal...

I think the main motivation was that he figured the Stones had a limited shelf life and he was being fed this shit by Yetnikoff and others that he was going to be a big solo star in a way that Michael Jackson was outside of the Jacksons..



maybe also Keith supporting Charlie in a
> certain way that wasn't too helpful given the
> circumstances, initializing the rift between Mick
> and Keith... as it looks Mick was the only "clean
> Stone" in the 1980s with Keith doing vodka (and
> some more I guess), Ronnie doing coke (and some
> else), Charlie even on heroin and Bill finally on
> Mandy...


LOL

little queenie Wrote:

> i used the term out of convenience but when i do a
> google search, i see the term is used for both
> injecting coke and heroin as well as ingesting a
> combination of both in an unspecified manner.
> whatever, the two together is dangerous.

I'm in complete agreement the two together are dangerous and have proven to be a lethal mix for others. Glad Charlie survived.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The spat between Mick and Keith really
> took off because as Keith saw it Mick (with some
> prompting from CBS boss Walter Yetnikoff who
> envisioned his 'future' as a major solo act) cut
> himself a solo deal on the back of a Stones album
> contract.

Gazza....Do you by chance recall when "State of Shock" with the 2 MJ's was released? Was it after the CBS deal was signed and prior to "She's The Boss" being released?

Yes... June 1984.

Mick started recording 'Shes the Boss' the same month...(released spring 1985) 'State of shock' was recorded just prior to him recording his solo album



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-10-18 03:26 by Gazza.

on 60 minutes from 94 charlie chokes up a bit when talking about his drug problems, felt very sorry for him when i watched that

charlie is my darling, too.

He cleaned up his act because his daughter asked him to : he started to look like "Dracula" and he was "scaring her" (quotes from a 1995 RS interview).

Steve Jordan held most of the drumming chores for "Dirty Work". He hits the snare VERY hard so it's easy to tell whether C.W. played on certain trax or not...

dcba Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Jordan held most of the drumming chores for
> "Dirty Work". He hits the snare VERY hard so it's
> easy to tell whether C.W. played on certain trax
> or not...

hmm, do you have any evidence for this? it was a priority of 80s mainstream production to make the drums sound as if they were being hit hard, no matter the drummer. for that matter, charlie sounds as if he's hitting them hard on A Bigger Bang.

Steve Jordan doesn't play on Dirty Work! He is a fairly good "Watts-player", but that would never happen!

[www.reverbnation.com]

C'mon C.W. was so out of it during the 1985 sessions that he once fell off his drum stool...
K.R. told him sth like "hey you're playing MY part, pal".
It's pretty a well-known thing that the recording sessions for "Dirty Work" were like an episode of E.R. : EVERYTHING was tried to keep the patient (i.e.the album) alive like bringing in side-men (Jimmy Page Steve Jordan & others).

[www.warr.org]
[en.wikipedia.org])
[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote from Wiki :
"in 1993 [C.W.] was addicted to heroin as well as alcohol during the 1980s, and this is why replacement drummers are credited on both Undercover and Dirty Work"

One last thing : compare "One Hit" and the beautiful "Infamy". Not the same guys, even with reverbs, echo mike placement and so on...

The DW sessions lasted a long time, so he had enough opportunities to lay down some acceptable parts!

There's session musicians (including drummers) at various times during the DW sessions partly because of the fragmented state of the band, but Charlie is on the finished tracks on most songs on that album. Ronnie is the drummer on 'Sleep Tonight'

yes and that can only be charlie on one hit, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, classic charlie beat