I have been reading the various "Did Brian Jones write any songs" threads, and I must say I'm disgusted with the reasearch on both sides. Firstly, the people who claim Brian couldn't and didn't write any songs are dead wrong and ignorant of information that is readily available out there. The poeple who belive he did, also didn't find the proof out there to back up there claim. I have been writing a book about interesting music for the last 3 years and there's quite a bit about Brian Jones in it. I will print some here for you.

Brian Jones did in fact write 2 songs for the rolling stones. The first was entitled "Sure I Do". There is some sepculation that Gene Pitney helped Brian complete the song. I was recorded in 1963 with Brian singing lead vocals. It maybe a variation on the song "Sure Nuff I Do". There is a record acetate of the song hanging on the wall of Bill Wyman's Sticky Fingers Cafe in London.

SURE I DO (Brian Jones)* Rec: Nov. 20 or 21, 1963** Rel: Not released. There's a myth that Brian never wrote a song. That's not true. SURE I DO exists on tape and acetate. It was published by Posner music Co.,and is reportedly a slow number with Brian singing the lead vocal in his soft spoken mellifluous style speaking voice, not his raspy singing voice. The Stones appear as a unit on this tune. Brian told a ROLLING STONES MONTHLY reporter as late as '66 that he'd like to record "himself...I've got a fairly good voice for folky material";(RS Monthly #23, 4/66)- I always think his rasp would have served the band well on the occasional blues, myself

The other is "I Want You To Know"
I WANT YOU TO KNOW (Brian Jones)* Rec: Dec. 7 or 9, 1963** Rel: Never released. Another Brian song, featuring Brian on lead vocals and harmonica. Two versions of this may exist. This is fast song, sung in the "raspy" I Wanna Be Your Man voice. *On the acetate, Brian's name was crossed out, replaced with Jagger/Richard, which was in turn replaced by Brian's name again. **The Stones recorded more publisher's demos at this session,including GIVE ME YOUR HAND (AND I'LL HOLD IT TIGHT), YOU MUST BE THE ONE and WHEN A GIRL LOVES A BOY. Some session men may appear on these tunes.

The most hottly contested Jones writing credit is the one he didn't recieve on "Ruby Tuesday". There is debate on wether or not Brian wrote the music. The was a quote in an Stones book by Alan Clayson by Marianne Faithfull where she says, "Brian wrote the music (for Ruby Tuesday) by combining a Skip James Blues and Downland's "Air on the late Lord Essex". An interesting quote but grossly incorrect. There is not song called "Air On The Late Lord Essex". The song in question is John Downland's "Can She Exscuse My Wrongs" which in the middle of the song starts playing the lute part form an old folk song called "The Woods So WIld" which is about Lord Essex's banishment from the court. It is remarkable to compare the sogns to "Rubey Tuesday" and realize Brian did infact write the music for "Ruby Tuesday". He had shown and interest in Elizabethan music, as the dulcimer on "Lady Jane"shows and we as various musical colorings on the "Flowers" and "Between The Buttons" albums.

He also wrote the jingle "Wake Up In The Morning" for rice crispies. It is just a blues jam where Brian wails on harmonica.

He also wrote the poem "Thank You For Being There" which was turned into a song".

He is also Credited with writing a BBC preformance "Dust My Pyrimids" which is a variation of "Dust My Broom".

The "Degree of Murder" soundtrack is more than sounds. It consists of a main theme. Some interesting sitar and organ music, cello piece by Brian, and a few rocking background pieces. No where an interesting piece of controversy. The main theme in "Degree of Muder" is the exact same as the riff in the Stones' "Sitting On A Fence". It seems Brain wrote more than we thought or care to give him credit for.

Copywrite S.D. Kutos Rainwater Renaissence Publishing

I hope this clears things up. Please don't copy this piece all over the internet. I want this book to have a good impact when it comes out.

Also, if anyone has that 40th Aniversery DVD and CDR of "Degree of Murder" I will pay handsomely for a copy of it.

MissU, is that you?

No, Im Mr Manda Jones. A Pun I guess. But no I'm new to this forum.

Seriously, If anyone have that 40th Aviversery DVD and CDR set of "A Degree of Murder" I would pay for a DVDR and CDR copy of it. If you want, contact me at glass_city_inc@yahoo.com

The degree of murder soundtrack is definitive proof he could write music, but I'm still skeptical about the existence of any complete songs which could be good enough for release.

An acetate, a radio jingle and a poem isn't solid evidence of a great songwriting ability imo. This doesn't mean he couldn't write great songs, but there's just nothing to positively show he could...

But, fab contributions to the stones albums and singles and a interesting film soundtrack is solid evidence he could write great music. Whats wrong with that!?

........

Regarding the recent 40th anniversarey cd/dvd release, you can buy it straight from the label via ebay. I did just that recently and it's a great little set.

Look, I know nothing about Brian Jones, more than I've read here. But it seems te me that you're trying to overthrow the statement "brian wasn't good at writing songs" by mentioning 2 (TWO!!!???) songs he DID write. I mean, it's obvious that you have to write songs before another can conclude that you're not good at it.

So I'm really not impressed in any way by what you have posted. As I have been impressed by the careful, delicate and open for discussion-method Matthijs (and others) has used on various occasions discussing the qualities and role of Brian in the Stones. If this it the style of writing and argumentation, I won't read your book because I will not believe a word in it. Because you don't challenge me to believe you.

No offense, but it's just really not impressive.

Jelle

Well, somehow I can't help thinking that this is bogus...there was a thread with the exact same content and the same songs mentioned a while back right here on IORR...seems almost like a copy&paste job...not like an excerpt from a new book...

I'd rather like to hear some news about the "investigations"...still all quiet on the Western Front...maybe that's the reason why Miss U. does not appear here anymore...am I right, "Mramandajones" ????

First of all, do not ever accuse me of copying and paste, EVER. Second, it's Mr Manda Jones, moron. The book hasn't even been published. What about it is "bogus". What research did you do to find anything. I just posted to share some info I found and some jerk named retired_dog attacks the validity of my post and findings. Screw you. I don't care if a similar post was here some time ago. I said I read the posts on here about Brain Jones and his writing ability, so yes I continued an exsisting thread adding my two cents, which I now regret completely. I hate people who have nothing better to do than be ignorant and impulsive. If you are trying to accuse me of being someone named Miss U, check the goddam IP addresses and compare them. F&%$K You.


On another point, you guys are missing the point and trying to change the point. You all questioned whether or not Brain wrote songs, NOT IF HE WAS ANY "GOOD" AT WRITING SONGS. I didn't display any evidence of his talent of writing songs, just that he did, Now you guys want to change the argument.
I've heard "I Want You To Know" and it's decent. There are you happy. I don't go around telling people I got the chance to hear some of these songs because people will start e-mailing me and asking for tapes and CDR. I don't have the songs, I just got to hear them on a couple of occasions, a collector let me hear his acetates. If you want to debat his talent at songwriting, fine, but don't change the argument.

I've heard a track called 'Little One' which is alleged to be a Brian Jones track (with Jimi Hendrix on it as well?) Did Brian actually compose this track?

Well.... compose is a hard word to use. It was a jam between the two. Brian on Sitar playing with Jimi. There's rumored session with Dave Mason of Traffic that involves the three of them. I interviewed Dave Mason for an article on the band Deep Feeling and he talked about Brian, calling him a nice guy, and a great musician.

Nice one. He was a great and gifted musician for sure. Albums like Aftermath would never have been what they were without him.

Mrmandajones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are trying to accuse me of being
> someone named Miss U, check the goddam IP
> addresses and compare them.

Good one! Ever heard of non-persistent IP adresses?


> F&%$K You.

Not that I need to, but F&%$King myself would be considerably more enjoyable than reading your rants...!

Mrmandajones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been reading the various "Did Brian Jones
> write any songs" threads, and I must say I'm
> disgusted with the reasearch on both sides.
> Firstly, the people who claim Brian couldn't and
> didn't write any songs are dead wrong and ignorant
> of information that is readily available out
> there. The poeple who belive he did, also didn't
> find the proof out there to back up there claim.

In eshtablishing whether Brian wrote songs, you must give definitions of what a 'song' is, and what 'proof' is. In my book, a song is a finished and released product, and proof simply is whether we can listen to it, and that the credits are given to Mr. Jones, or multiple statements that he wrote it.


> I
> have been writing a book about interesting music
> for the last 3 years and there's quite a bit about
> Brian Jones in it.

A book "about interesting music"? Great topic, I must say.

> I will print some here for
> you.

All topics posted below here are copied from numerous other publications and websites.

> Brian Jones did in fact write 2 songs for the
> rolling stones. The first was entitled "Sure I
> Do". There is some sepculation that Gene Pitney
> helped Brian complete the song. I was recorded in
> 1963 with Brian singing lead vocals. It maybe a
> variation on the song "Sure Nuff I Do". There is a
> record acetate of the song hanging on the wall of
> Bill Wyman's Sticky Fingers Cafe in London.

All the above information has been compiled and written down many years ago by people like Dieter Hoffman. Concerning the definitions: nobody has ever heard this song. Yes, it's on the wall at Sticky Fingers, but nobody has ever been able to listen to it. In my book, this song therefore remains just a "rumour", nothing less and nothing more.

> I always think
> his rasp would have served the band well on the
> occasional blues, myself

I think there is consensus concerning Brian's singing quality -he was a terrible singer by all means, so much that his microfone was taken away at live gigs in early 1964.

> The other is "I Want You To Know"
> I WANT YOU TO KNOW (Brian Jones)* Rec: Dec. 7 or
> 9, 1963** Rel: Never released.

Again, nobody has ever heard this song, nor has anyone ever claimed this song existed.

> It is remarkable to compare the sogns
> to "Rubey Tuesday" and realize Brian did infact
> write the music for "Ruby Tuesday".

So you mean to say that Brian nicked the music? He didn't write Ruby Tuesday, but he copied the music from another song? And this is your proof Brian wrote songs?

> He also wrote the jingle "Wake Up In The Morning"
> for rice crispies. It is just a blues jam where
> Brian wails on harmonica.

This track is not written by Brian at all, even though he recieved credits. The lyrics are written by JW Thomas, a writer from an advertisement firm, from working for the Kelloggs company. The Stones play a standard Chuck Berry 12 bar rock 'n roll' shuffle underneath the lyrics.

Brian took the credits as he had arranged the deal, and according to Wyman this wasn't well received with the band. Brian was known for taking more money as he considered himself the leader and the manager, and the group felt this also was part of it.

If Brian would have been fair, Rice Crispies should have been credited to Thomas/Nanker/Phelge.

>
> He also wrote the poem "Thank You For Being There"
> which was turned into a song".

Has turned into a song? By whom?

> He is also Credited with writing a BBC preformance
> "Dust My Pyrimids" which is a variation of "Dust
> My Broom".

Credited? By whom? A two guitar work out of Dust my Broom by Brian and Keith, and now "Brian wrote it"?

> The "Degree of Murder" soundtrack is more than
> sounds.

The Degree soundtrack is proof Brian could create music, not that he could create songs. And we don't need proof he could create music, as we have Aftermath, Out of Our Heads, BtB and Satanic as proof Brian was a brilliant creator of music parts. He was a genius in adding parts to music written by Jagger/Richards.

> Copywrite S.D. Kutos Rainwater Renaissence
> Publishing
>
> I hope this clears things up. Please don't copy
> this piece all over the internet. I want this book
> to have a good impact when it comes out.

I am very sorry, but all you have written above has been written down, printed, and released in various forms over the years, sometimes even in the exact words. Parts are taken from Dieter Hoffman, from Bill Wyman's Stone Alone book, from the great book by John Carr. I have been reading the same information over and over for the last 20 years.

If you want your book to have impact, I think you should come up with something better, not stuff that has been published over and over for the last 25 years. Brian was a genius, but no song writer. Of course he tried to write songs, so of course two or three try-outs will exist, but there's isn't ONE song released from 1963 to 1969 that we can agree on to an extent that Brian wrote or helped writing.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-23 12:24 by Mathijs.

Mrmandajones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, do not ever accuse me of copying and
> paste, EVER. Second, it's Mr Manda Jones, moron.

Strange. On the first reaction you start calling names, and you start insulting. If your not willing to disuss openly what you wrote, then don't post it on this board.

Second, you remind me of this group of Brian Jones fanatics over at the Rocks Off board, poeple like "Porkchop express" and 'Miss U". These people aggressively curse you out and insult you whenever you don't agree with their "Brian was God's right hand" credo.

Mathijs

It´s the same like with Mick Taylor, he´s a genoius musician but his songs are´nt very well, although I really like most of them

>> First of all, do not ever accuse me of copying and paste, EVER. <<

so what's this then - Miss U displaying uncanny precognitive ability back in january 06?
[www.iorr.org]

>> SURE I DO (Brian Jones)* Rec: Nov. 20 or 21, 1963** Rel: Not released. There's a myth that Brian never wrote a song. That's not true. SURE I DO exists on tape and acetate. It was published by Posner music Co.,and is reportedly a slow number with Brian singing the lead vocal in his soft spoken mellifluous style speaking voice, not his raspy singing voice. The Stones appear as a unit on this tune. Brian told a ROLLING STONES MONTHLY reporter as late as '66 that he'd like to record "himself...I've got a fairly good voice for folky material";(RS Monthly #23, 4/66)- I always think his rasp would have served the band well on the occasional blues, myself. <<

Haha, that's great with ssssoul!
And anyway, if those songs exist and Brian wrote them - would those 2 songs, that never had any impact on anyone, really prove that he's a great songwriter? No....

if he really has been a great songwriter, or a songwriter only, he kept it very secret....

Some of these songs are available at hot stuff , check THEBOOTLEGMAN list of posts
.
Use The search option

wipeacdc@hotmail.com
never too old or young to rocknroll!!!!!!

A problem here is that Brian could write great music and he added stuff to songs and he pårobably wrote parts and riffs and melodies but never got cred. Its one thing they gave Jagger/Richards all the cred but he might have wasnted some recognition for I dunno, Ruby Tuesday, No Expectations, Little Red rooster (his slide arr.), the Last Time (the riff) etc, not on the records but maybe some nice words from Mick. Which of course was impossible given the power balance etc. Taylor wrote stuff with Mick and actually Keith (Separetely is Taylor). And he quit cause he didnt get the deserved cred. Ronnie was a puppy who adored Keith's evry step and kept his spirits up. That's why he's rich and Taylor isnt. If you leave Keith/the Stones you do it in a coffin.

Regarding 'Little One'... Eddie Kramer says it's Dave Mason on sitar and slide guitar. He wrote about the session in his boook about hendrix.

The backing track later had a Noel Redding vocal overdubbed on, it then became a song called 'Their Ain't Nothing Wrong With That'.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> First of all, do not ever accuse me of copying
> and paste, EVER. <<
>
> so what's this then - Miss U displaying uncanny
> precognitive ability back in january 06?
> [www.iorr.org]#
> msg-331757
>
> >> SURE I DO (Brian Jones)* Rec: Nov. 20 or 21,
> 1963** Rel: Not released. There's a myth that
> Brian never wrote a song. That's not true. SURE I
> DO exists on tape and acetate. It was published by
> Posner music Co.,and is reportedly a slow number
> with Brian singing the lead vocal in his soft
> spoken mellifluous style speaking voice, not his
> raspy singing voice. The Stones appear as a unit
> on this tune. Brian told a ROLLING STONES MONTHLY
> reporter as late as '66 that he'd like to record
> "himself...I've got a fairly good voice for folky
> material";(RS Monthly #23, 4/66)- I always think
> his rasp would have served the band well on the
> occasional blues, myself. <<


hahaha......well I think with sssoul pretty well said it all.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Second, you remind me of this group of Brian Jones
> fanatics over at the Rocks Off board, poeple like
> "Porkchop express" and 'Miss U". These people
> aggressively curse you out and insult you whenever
> you don't agree with their "Brian was God's right
> hand" credo.
>
> Mathijs


Neither of those people post on RO. Miss U hasnt for a few years.

Sure I Do exists I think. I think it's part of a medly of early outtakes which appears on some boots. I think I have it. If I'm not mistaken, it has female backing. I think there is only about 10 seconds of it though.

Anyone accusing me of copying and pasting is full dead wrong and it is lible. A "song" does not have to be released to be a song. It's status of availabilty does not make less a song, so your argument is ridiculous. I call people names because some @#$%& named retired_dog accused me of copying and pasteing. Goddam right I'd call names on some @#$%& who knows nothing about this music, hasn't done any research and likes to change the subject. "No one has ever heard these songs"?? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The musicians recorded it heard it, engineers and producered heard it, collectors who own acetates heard them, Bill Wyman owns one of them. People don't talk about hearing them because people will bother them for copies. I wasn't uncofortable with posting an exerpt from my book jerk, I just was a little redisent with putting out my hard work when the book isn't finished yet. Untill some of you have actully spent money, done research, talked to everybody, then you can critisize my research, untill then drop dead. Is anyone surprised I would get pissed off when some nothing ignorant person accuses me plagerizim and beging someone else. @#$%& him. He's the only one who'll get any pleasure from @#$%& him. Non-persisten IP adresses??? Wow that's a big word, you can also check if these IP Addresses are in the same country or state in my case. Try figuring that out and not just looking up a term you don't understand. Once again. Brian wrote two complete songs. Nicked the music of Ruby Tuesday. No, you obviously don't know who writing works. "I Feel Fine" by the Beatles, has a riff similar to "Watch Your Step". "Because" by the beatles takes it's arrangement from a song by the american band MOrtimer and there song "Where Dragons Gaurd The Door". "Stairwat to Heaven" is stolen from "Taurus" by spirit, "Ice Cream Dreams" by cartoone, "Cry Me A River" by Davey Graham, and "She's Lonely" by the chocolate Watch Band. Being influenced by a song and combining it with other influences to create somthing new isn't stealing, idiot. It's what artists do. It's natural progression of influences and the creation of an individual style. If you want' to debate his ability as a song writer, start a new thread. I said he DID write songs, I didn't comment on there greatness. "Sure I Do" doesn't have female back ups. It's a slow bluesly number, it has a great slide guitar solo in it, and acuoustice guitars are heavily featured in it. I don't know who plays what. Brian uses a voice similar to Dave Davies lead vocals with the kinks. Not as high pitched or whiney, but raspy and more efete. Brian half talks half sings. "I want you to Know" is faster paced, and more of a pop tune with bluesly coloring".
I don't belive Dave Mason plays sitar on "Little One" he didn't mention that, but then again he didn't remember some of the earlier bands he was in. There are some recording of Brian jamming with Jimi at montery in 67, but there kind of aimless. So in conclusion, @#$%& those of you who just wanted to start a fight, and bless the rest of you.

do realy most of you here believe that all these great songs ,till 69,are composed just by jagger/richards ???

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >> Second, you remind me of this group of Brian
> Jones
> > fanatics over at the Rocks Off board, poeple
> like
> > "Porkchop express" and 'Miss U". These people
> > aggressively curse you out and insult you
> whenever
> > you don't agree with their "Brian was God's
> right
> > hand" credo.
> >
> > Mathijs
>
>
> Neither of those people post on RO. Miss U hasnt
> for a few years.

My intentions weren't t say anything bad about the RO board, only about some posters. 'The Porkchop Express' still posts, as we see here:

[novogate.com]

Mathijs

ummm.......Mrmandajones......how do you explain the link that with sssoul posted a few posts up.....did you even look at that???


It's a post from January 2006 by Miss U that you quoted word for word.

>> SURE I DO (Brian Jones)* Rec: Nov. 20 or 21, 1963** Rel: Not released. There's a myth that Brian never wrote a song. That's not true. SURE I DO exists on tape and acetate. It was published by Posner music Co.,and is reportedly a slow number with Brian singing the lead vocal in his soft spoken mellifluous style speaking voice, not his raspy singing voice. The Stones appear as a unit on this tune. Brian told a ROLLING STONES MONTHLY reporter as late as '66 that he'd like to record "himself...I've got a fairly good voice for folky material";(RS Monthly #23, 4/66)- I always think his rasp would have served the band well on the occasional blues, myself. <<

You may or may not be this Miss U character, but you surely DID copy and paste this stuff. Go ahead and click on the link and read the thread. That thread proves it.

Before you start cussing me and calling me names and making accusations of libel, maybe you should be reminded that "libel" occurs when people knowingly print lies about somebody. I'm sure everybody on this board believes what they're saying to be the truth.

Please notice that in the first post other than Mrmanda's (3rd overall), the legendary detective Elmo first notices some similarities between manda and Miss U.

In the next post, manda replies, "No, I'm new here". How would she/he know who Miss U was if she/he was new here? Maybe Thoroughgood told him/her on his deathbed.

"No Anchovies, Please"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-23 21:07 by Elmo Lewis.