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That Maton Thread
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 31, 2007 07:31

The infamous 'Gimme Shelter' guitar...













...

The Brian Jones Resource

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: May 31, 2007 09:24

thanks HM! the first shot of Keith (well, of the Twins) is by Michael Ochs.
i've never been quite able to decide whether i think it's 1969 or late 68 - what do you think?

the black & white one of Brian and the one of Keith with Brian in the background are both by Eric Hayes;
the colour ones of Brian probably are too. they must be from 69, although they're often misidentified
as being from the Beggars sessions.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: May 31, 2007 09:38

[Gimmie Shelter] was done on a full-bodied, Australian electric-acoustic, f-hole guitar.
It kind of looked like an Australian copy of the Gibson model that Chuck Berry used ...
It had all been revarnished and painted out, but it sounded great. It made a great record ...
[I got it from] some guy who stayed at my pad. He crashed out for a couple of days and
suddenly left in a hurry, leaving that guitar behind. You know: Take care of this for me.
I certainly did! But it served me well through the album. And on the very last note of Gimmie Shelter,
the whole neck fell off. You can hear it on the original take.
- Keith Richards, 2002 (quoted on timeisonourside.com)

i've always smiled at that "on the very last note, the whole neck fell off" - as if the neck falling off
would be anything but the last note! :E has anyone heard the "original take" where that's audible?

Keith has also said he used the Maton on Midnight Rambler, but is probably misremembering that
(Rambler sounds like his black 3PU LP Custom - see [iorr.org]).
but since he talks about using the Maton "throughout the album" ... are there other tracks on LIB where we hear it?

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: May 31, 2007 13:18

To be really honest, I have a hard time believing the Maton was used for any recording at all...Keith was literally glued to his Les Paul Custom from early '66 until July '71, and you can hear this guitar on 98% of all songs from BtB through Let it Bleed, including outtakes like hamburger to Go, Family etc. The sound of GS is not a sound of single coils, it in my opinion has way too much body to be done with single coils. Also, and this is pure speculation: I just got my '67 Vox Foundation Bass amp, and this amp sounds brilliant -but only with my Les Paul. With my Zemaitis or Tele (both single coils) the sound becomes thin and harsh on the ears.

Since I have this amp, I actually believe keith used his Les Paul Custom through a Vox Conqueror/Defiant/Foundation Bass and/or the solid state Triumph amp (wich is basically the same thing as the Vox) on 99% of all tracks '66 until early '70, including Honky Tonk Women. After early '70 Ampeg and Fender amps make their entrance (although the intro to Can't You Hear Me Knocking sounds like the distortion from the solid state Vox amp again).

I have no way of proving this, except for comparing the sound of my own amp with the albums released.

Mathijs

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 31, 2007 14:55

I think all those Maton pics are from 1969! I cropped the first pic so that we would get more of a close up on Keith with the guitar. Here it is minus my tampering...



I don't have a hard time believing that it was used on Gimme Shelter for the tremolo guitar. Until I play the same model of Maton through a 1968 Triumph Silicon 100 combo I'll take his word for it.

The main guitar on Midnight Rambler however sounds like a les paul custom, perhaps the slide parts were done with the Maton!?

...

The Brian Jones Resource

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 31, 2007 15:34

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be really honest, I have a hard time believing
> the Maton was used for any recording at
> all...Keith was literally glued to his Les Paul
> Custom from early '66 until July '71, and you can
> hear this guitar on 98% of all songs from BtB
> through Let it Bleed, including outtakes like
> hamburger to Go, Family etc. The sound of GS is
> not a sound of single coils, it in my opinion has
> way too much body to be done with single coils.
> Also, and this is pure speculation: I just got my
> '67 Vox Foundation Bass amp, and this amp sounds
> brilliant -but only with my Les Paul. With my
> Zemaitis or Tele (both single coils) the sound
> becomes thin and harsh on the ears.
>
> Since I have this amp, I actually believe keith
> used his Les Paul Custom through a Vox
> Conqueror/Defiant/Foundation Bass and/or the solid
> state Triumph amp (wich is basically the same
> thing as the Vox) on 99% of all tracks '66 until
> early '70, including Honky Tonk Women. After early
> '70 Ampeg and Fender amps make their entrance
> (although the intro to Can't You Hear Me Knocking
> sounds like the distortion from the solid state
> Vox amp again).
>
> I have no way of proving this, except for
> comparing the sound of my own amp with the albums
> released.
>
> Mathijs


Don't forget the all solid state amps didn't really come in to general use until their 1967 European tour.

Also, Keith is pictured playing the 'sonic blue' telecaster during 1967, the ES-330 and of course the Maton(I think it's some variant of a model called Freshman) during 1969 so I don't see why they wouldn't have ended being used for full on released takes.

The sound of Gimme Shelter tremolo parts has a uniqueness to it imo, I don't hear it as a les paul custom.

...

The Brian Jones Resource



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-31 15:35 by His Majesty.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: May 31, 2007 15:40

Maybe at this point it's worth having fresh chuckle at one of Keith's classic load of ald bollocks quotes...bless him.

"...given time, I can make any guitar and amp sound like any other"

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: May 31, 2007 17:12

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The sound of Gimme Shelter tremolo parts has a
> uniqueness to it imo, I don't hear it as a les
> paul custom.

Yes, it has a uniqueness to me as well, but I don't hear a hollow body with single coils on the intro...but I just listened to it again, and there's actually no way of telling really. The mix is dense, the tremelo is so heavy, it's really hard to say I guess.

Mathijs

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: cc ()
Date: May 31, 2007 17:56

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i've always smiled at that "on the very last note,
> the whole neck fell off" - as if the neck falling
> off
> would be anything but the last note! :E

hmm... how to put it then?

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: May 31, 2007 18:03

don't worry about it cc - it's just that i'm easily amused.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: bruno ()
Date: May 31, 2007 21:08

Thanks for the pics, Majesty. I've never paid enough attention to the top of that infamous Maton guitar, and it's quite beautiful withall that flame.

[There'll be no wedding today...]

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: terraplane ()
Date: June 1, 2007 13:15

I used to have one of these Matons. The same as in the pictures (albeit with asunburst finish). Has the one in the photographs been refinished? It had a dark tone so I can belive that KR did in fact use it on Gimme Shelter.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: June 1, 2007 13:40

I still own a Maton 302/6 made in the late 60's....

ROCKMAN

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: June 1, 2007 14:06

terraplane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I used to have one of these Matons. The same as in
> the pictures (albeit with asunburst finish). Has
> the one in the photographs been refinished? It had
> a dark tone so I can belive that KR did in fact
> use it on Gimme Shelter.

Yes, The Stones' Maton was stripped and revarnished.

Do you remember what the exact model name was? And cann you descibe the sound? Gretsch-like, or more of a Gibson jazz box like?

Mathijs

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: June 1, 2007 21:19

Rockman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still own a Maton 302/6 made in the late
> 60's....

Is it the same as the stones guitar? Any pics? smiling smiley

...

The Brian Jones Resource

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: June 2, 2007 14:00

found this link to a Maton 302/6: [www.maton.com.au]
there's a search gizmo on the site: [www.maton.com.au]
so far this might be the closest i've found to the model the Stones used: [www.maton.com.au]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-02 14:17 by with sssoul.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: terraplane ()
Date: June 3, 2007 00:58

Mathijs wrote:

Do you remember what the exact model name was? And cann you descibe the sound? Gretsch-like, or more of a Gibson jazz box like?



Sorry Mathijs I was only 17 years old (almost 30 years ago now) when I had that Maton and I wasn't aware of guitar model numbers. Suffice to say it was identical as the one in the Rolling Stones pictures though as mentioned sunburst (black and yellow). It had the same Bigsby tailpiece as well.

I have a Gretsch nashville now and that is 'brighter' than the Maton. I have never tried a Gibson jazz box to compare. My friend had a Hofner. The Maton sounded similar to that albeit the Maton had a bigger body.

If I could get one of those Matons again, I certainly would. They are excellent guitars.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: June 3, 2007 01:05

found this link to a Maton 302/6: [www.maton.com.au]

There ya go HM...that's it ...with sssoul has glued up the link...

ROCKMAN

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: terraplane ()
Date: June 3, 2007 01:17

Looking at the Maton site it seems to be a Supreme electric 777. Year of manufacture 1963.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: open-g ()
Date: June 3, 2007 01:19

Rockman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still own a Maton 302/6 made in the late
> 60's....


Crikey - only 115 of 'em where made!
take good care of the pearl.
Do you play the guitar, Rock? haven't heard you mention it.


Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: June 3, 2007 01:23

Yeah over the years a lot of guys have
tried to buy it....open-g...I make a noise

ROCKMAN

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: June 3, 2007 01:24

>> Supreme electric 777. Year of manufacture 1963 <<

ah, thanks Terraplane - there it is ... hm, rats: the link won't work.
but if you go to the search gizmo - [www.maton.com.au] - and enter 1963 as the year,
it's the last one on the list that comes up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-03 01:29 by with sssoul.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: open-g ()
Date: June 3, 2007 01:32

This cutaway Supreme electric 777 doesn't have a Bigsby - but the double cutaway model has it.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: terraplane ()
Date: June 3, 2007 02:56

Yep that's right. They must have made a version of the single cutaway with the Bigsby just they don't have a picture of it on their site.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: June 3, 2007 10:21

The main difference seems to be the pickups. On the 777 they look like humbuckers, while on the Stones' Maton they're single coils.

Mathijs

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: June 11, 2007 12:55

Ok, I've done some digging...

Ray Davies of The Kinks had the same/or nearly the same model of Maton(he says it's a starline), complete with natural finish. He sold it so he could buy a telecaster.



Perhaps Keith assumed the finish was stripped!? Perhaps it's the very same guitar, although the scratch plate is missing the Maton sig in the Kinks pic!?

...

The Brian Jones Resource



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-06-11 12:58 by His Majesty.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: terraplane ()
Date: June 11, 2007 13:59

That's interesting to know that Ray Davies had one. I never knew that. Maton can't have made too many of these.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: June 15, 2007 16:18

I'm curious to know where the truss rod adjustment(if there is one) can be done!? There doesn't seem to be access at the headstock.

...

The Brian Jones Resource

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: T_ramsay001 ()
Date: June 17, 2007 19:05

I have just picked up one of these guitars. Very interesting to see the history of the make. Mine is a double cutaway in cherry. unfortunately at some stage of its life it has lost its bigsby though.

Re: That Maton Thread
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: June 17, 2007 19:53

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I've done some digging...
>
> Ray Davies of The Kinks had the same/or nearly the
> same model of Maton(he says it's a starline),
> complete with natural finish. He sold it so he
> could buy a telecaster.
>
> [i51.photobucket.com]
> c/Various/k1964aa.jpg
>
> Perhaps Keith assumed the finish was stripped!?
> Perhaps it's the very same guitar, although the
> scratch plate is missing the Maton sig in the
> Kinks pic!?

What a great find! What do you mean with th 'missing scratch plate' ? The guard is still on the guitar in this picture.

Chances are very, very big that this is the same Maton has later used by the Stones. I don't think the chances are big that two of these Maton made it too England -a guitar that was produced in small quantities in Australia, in the very rare colour of 'blonde', and both with an added Bigsby 7. It must be the same guitar, from a statistical point of view...

Mathijs

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